firedragon
Veteran Member
Pamela Geller's word is worshiped blindly. No analysis done. Thats blind worship of Pamela Geller.
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The attack Quran thread
- Thread starter firedragon
- Start date
Pamela Geller's word is worshiped blindly. No analysis done. Thats blind worship of Pamela Geller.
Is she pretty? I mean, worthy of worship? If she looks like a witch, I might need a demonstration of her powers, to see if she can help me out, and that is largely what a God is worth to us humans, or is there more to it than that?
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
When God says freeing a slave is a good deed, then how it means to you
that Muslims can have slaves.
God doesn't ban, for example God says that the killer should be punished by death penalty,
but God won't say that killing is banned, your mind is limited in thinking and can't be as wise as the creator
of this universe.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Brother. If you dont know who Pamela Geller is, you can do a quick google search.
I've heard the name, maybe even seen the face, I might even recall who she is, but just lacking sufficient curiosity to verify, also I fear she might be unattractive and so not very interesting or stimulating for me to look at. I assume she is some evil politician or something, like any random names that are made out to be significant for a few years. Allah is much more interesting and famous or "high profile" in my view, and I'm most stimulated by God and the various names of God than mere transient and short-lived human beings. I'm a Deophile/Theophile.Brother. If you dont know who Pamela Geller is, you can do a quick google search.
I think according to the Qur'an it is perfectly legal for a person to acquire a slave and to put people in a situation where they become slaves, for example if they are in debt or a criminal or enemy combatant or whatever the original circumstances were which people were made into slaves and their slavery was maintained by the followers of Islam. Anti-Slavery is just a new thing, and the types of slaves that the Americans had and made, or how they treated them is unlikely to be acceptable, but the status "slave" and their duties and obligations and rights seem to be fully sanctioned and authorized by the Qur'an. The Qur'an seems to also potentially allow a person to have sexual intercourse with "those who your right hand possess" or whatever it says, but maybe that is another wrong translation which can be corrected here. Don't worry though, I don't have any slaves, nor have I ever had any sexual intercourse, but I think that in a Muslim system that slavery seems to be allowed, even as it was in Rome and everywhere else practically, and that it is not wrong or evil to own a slave or buy a slave (and treat them well), and that the Qur'an seems to allow this sort of commerce which existed throughout the Muslim world for centuries, or were all those Muslims generation after generation evildoers merely for owning slaves? Did Muhammed and according to other stories the other Prophets (but there is no mention of such in the Qur'an, but there seems to be talk of such outside of the Qur'an) not own slaves like most everyone else? Even if they were eventually freed, they likely bought and owned slaves (or acquired them by various means, as ancient people did) according to these tales, and nobody thought worse of them for it until only modern times where it has become something people don't like or accept. I'm not saying I like it either, I'm just saying that seemingly according to the Qur'an you really can own slaves, buy slaves, sell slaves, free slaves, deal with slaves, deal in slaves, etc.
Can someone copy paste those rules here or direct me to where they are, I have trouble navigating the website for some reason.
People used to pay money to buy slaves though, and it seems to say that you can have sexual intercourse with these people you've paid for? They aren't prostitutes though, since that can't be right, so they must be people you've paid for and so you possess them, and can have sex with them? Or could, since it apparently isn't the case anymore since now we can't buy people, or can I have sex legally with the maid?
Yeah, I think people must commonly assume it is actually something recommended in the Qur'an, but it doesn't seem to be recommended at all, nor is there even this notion really present about how certain things that a relative does can increase or decrease the status or prestige of the family members or in the view of God even. Plus, murder or killing as a punishment is exclusively for enemy combatants who are attacking and murderers (and can also be forgiven as well or not killed), and there is no stoning to death mentioned in the Qur'an or beheading, or mutilation, or genital mutilation, not even circumcision as far as I am aware, none of it appears in the Qur'an, but a lot of it does appear in the Bible, and it is possible that people inspired by such things brought it into the Islamic cultures or something, but it doesn't appear in the Qur'an at least. What the Qur'an does have is stuff that can be paraphrased as "if someone tries to kill you in war or attacks you violently with an intent to kill, no need to let them kill you or loved ones, but defend yourself, strike back, feel free to do whatever is reasonable to survive and end the threat" which sounds fine and just basic human nature to me anyway, and it asks that people don't go nuts or into overkill mode or transgress or go too far in their spree, and never to harm the innocent or non-combatants or indirect people which is all criminal and evil sort of conduct, so it sounds pretty reasonable and just to me, there is no sins of the father pass to the son sort of business or that if your kid is evil then you should be punished or shamed for it.
There is a lot of good stuff, if people followed the Qur'an closely and other influenced weren't present and allowed in as much as they were, one might have seen a very different sort of picture of the religion than exists today, though I still believe it is more than likely that it would be considered just as despicable and hated, and also most likely used for evil ends by evil people anyway, as is practically anything always.
The Qur'an also suggests the punishment of lashings of a certain number for people who are proven by testimony and authenticated witnesses, evidence, and proof, for adulterers, and then the adulterers are mercifully left alone and allowed to even be with each other as far as what the Qur'an seems to say, so it amounts to a serious spanking (maybe they like it), but it does suggest to make sure you do it hard enough so that it doesn't just act as a merely symbolic lashing, so probably suitable to hand over to a sadist to perform on them, but a sadist controlled by the law, the official government spanker.
One of the punishments people don't like too much these days, is the recommendation of chopping off the hand of a thief, so that people will be terrified of theft or getting caught for theft, and will also be seen from a distance as a potential thief or former thief, but maybe unlikely to steal, unless they are a mental case, which they would be if they are stealing with such harsh rules or their hand already cut off, in which case its likely that they are given some other sort of treatment or containment to prevent them from further trouble-making. Plus, if they are stealing out of need, then it is likely better to have mercy and treat them as a charity case, though I've seen some real rotten thieves, and wouldn't mind if their hands were chopped off, ok fine, just one!
The Qur'an is also against the murder of infants (infanticide) which was commonly practiced in cultures, like even in Greece and possibly Rome, but Ancient Egyptians supposedly didn't like the practice according to Greek accounts. The Arabs supposedly were not too dissimilar from ancient Greco-Romans and Babylonians maybe too or Canaanites before them, and so they were said to commonly murder their infant children at times, but the Qur'an very strictly forbids this, but I don't remember if any punishment for those who do this is mentioned except that they will be judged for it, but its more than likely it was made illegal and harshly prosecuted in Muslim cultures. It says "Do not kill yourselves" and "Do not kill your children" I'm pretty sure, and in so many cases called "Honor Killings" there are people killing their own family members, their own children, which is surely heinous in the sight of the God presented by the Qur'an.
The Bible on the other hand had quite different ideas apparently about such things in comparison to the Qur'an, and insists that people should kill their own children if necessary for certain crimes, like saying "Hey, how about we worship some other God?". The New Testament brings up something like this as well, where Jesus seems to be calling the Jews of the time a bunch of fakers for not murdering their own kids enough.
firedragon
Veteran Member
I do love your nonchalant manner of making people chuckle. Its like a needle in disguise.
Haha, I really appreciate that, I am so happy when people are pleased with my writing and enjoy my humor or notice it. I get a bit stressed at the thought people might take me a little too seriously sometimes, and its embarrassing for everyone usually if I have to explain how I was simultaneously stating something that might be true, while still finding it funny or silly and sort of mainly just being light hearted about it all! Thank you so much for making that comment and mentioning that, it really makes me feel better!
firedragon
Veteran Member
The problem is that your writing is so gentlemanly that even if they see your humour they will wonder twice if what they are seeing is actually what they are seeing.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
Which verse that says Muslims can have sex relationship with what their right hand possess?
How many times should I tell you that Slavery is regarded as a bad thing since the quran
regard freeing them as a good deed, not hard to understand.
God said wine is evil and may lead you to do evil things but never banned it, you may say,
oh then God if not banning wine then you can still buy and drink wine.
The prophet in which they accused him of having slaves then why he didn't let
Bilal to be one of his slaves in which they paid money to free him from his owner.
From Slave to Master: The Story of Bilal the Unbreakable
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FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
Which verse which allow a person to have sex with his maid?
gnostic
The Lost One
What ever maybe Estro, I dont think the Bible is relevant here. This post was intended to act as a platform for those who attack and claim things about the Quran in other irrelevant topics, so one should try and be relevant to this topic.
No offence intended. Hope you understand.
But Estro's points, is both scriptures are outdated in many areas in modern societies, especially the roles of women and slaves and their treatments.
If you are going to attack the Qur'an, then the Bible is also fair game of the same attacks, as well as every other scriptures, Abrahamic or not.
But I do have problems with the Qur'an, but I have even more problems with Muhammad himself.
With every positives, there are negatives too, BUT it applied to every religions and every scriptures.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Brother. You have to take another step in this matter.
1. The Quran does not only make it a good thing. If you read throughout the Qur'an, "Spending money to free a slave" is mentioned vehemently as part of the Muslim creed. Al Birr. Its listed among all other most important things including salah, belief in Allah, and a whole lot of other things that a Muslim "Must do" if you are to consider yourself doing whats Al Birr. Quran 2:177.
2. You must also realise that conceptually, there is only one Rab or lord. Not even Jesus and his mother can claim to be lords. No one is a Rab. So conceptually to have an abd or a slave you have to be a rab, owner, lord. Thats shirk. So having a slave is being a Mushrikeen.
Well. Thats according to the Quran.
Peace.
firedragon
Veteran Member
You are right. One should attack all scripture. Its honestly a good exercise as long as you can take it as an academic exercise without letting emotional and preaching be your dominant reasoning.
Its just that I personally believe in sticking to the topic. If the topic is the Quran, one should stick to the Quran. If I look for attacking the Bible in this thread it is called the Tu Quoque fallacy in logic. Id rather address each point you would make.
Its not that I have any authority to tell you what to do mate. Its your prerogative. Only I will not respond to Bible attacks in a thread named to attack the Quran. I hope you understand. I am saying this with utmost respect to your very respectable comments.
Please do quote your problems with the Quran and the verse you are addressing. One could have a good conversation even if the two does not agree on anything.
Hope you're having a great day. Cheers.
Samantha Rinne
Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
This is still, how do you say, "good press."
The fact remains that whites in America owned slaves for a very brief period, to a very low percentage.
(Snopes fudges this by listing families owning slaves, then does funny math to declare that between 3% and 49% of families owned slaves. If you measured distant relations, you could say anything you want, but the fact is, there are only so plantations around and not 49% of the people were even involved in agriculture. Btw if my great aunt owns slaves, but we have disowned her, how is it our business if she owns all these people? The actual number was about 300,000 out 31 million, which they declare up and down is not the real stastistic, but adds up to about 1.4%)
Many of them were freed before the 245 years
American slavery: Separating fact from myth
of slavery were up. This was what abolitionists were all about. These "families of slaves" might have consisted of one owner and many brothers and children who would just as soon free them but for the logistical nightmare that all of these free people now have to manage their own affairs (or to put it anorher way, while it's very idealistic to think freeing slaves is as simple as buying their freedom, if you really care about them, there's the consideration of making sure they don't starve once free) and some cases the whites weren't as wealthy as history books would have you believe. In any case, after Civil War, slavery ended, and there was some Jim Crow stuff, but it mostly died down. Or should have, except for dredging up resentment through reparations and things like Critical Race Theory (fun fact: you know what the actual political party of most slaveowners was? Democrat).
By contrast, the Quran hauls out some story about some freed slave and we are supposed to believe the good press. Yet slavery has persisted 1400 years. They enslaved blacks. They enslaved whites (you know those sexy harem girls in pictures of Middle East in popular media? White slaves of Muslim owners). And they'll probably enslave you and me once they make this country Muslim.
Hermit Philosopher
Selflessly here for you
Many thanks for sharing your views on this, Artis Magistra.
I believe it is very important to always read spiritual texts in a spiritual frame of mind. Otherwise, they can lead to much harm and suffering.
I read the words symbolically and metaphorically and so, like you re. the Qur'an, I would say in regards to NT that Jesus does not want us to kill [our] children or anyone, for that matter. Just saying.
Humbly
Hermit