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Featured The attack Quran thread

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by firedragon, Sep 28, 2020.

  1. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    This thread is opened purely to have a thread where people can attack the Quran. Prove all their claims that Quran promotes misogyny, racism, murder of innocents, etc etc that people make in threads that are not relevant to that topic.

    It seems that many wish to discuss this topic in almost any thread so here is an opportunity to do that rather than derail every other thread.

    With due respect to those who dont pose to be Quranic scholars, well read in the Quranic discourse etc without actually having that kind of knowledge, there are many who claim they are. So I would like to see these "lists" of verses picked up from the Quran that proves all of these accusations I cited above.

    If someone who could do that has the patience to analyse one verse they bring at a time in context of the whole book, and the surrounding, one maybe able to have a fruitful exchange on this topic.

    Important note though:
    1. Anyone who wishes to to attack, criticise, practice criticism or engage in these accusations should typically be specific by providing a verse which they think supports their accusation and analyse that verse along with the context of the book. If not its just superficial and not objective.

    2. Also if you try to avoid logical fallacies like appealing to authority, ad populum, post hoc ergo propter hoc, it would be logically sound.

    Peace.
     
    #1 firedragon, Sep 28, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2020
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  2. rocala

    rocala Active Member

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    This is a superb idea. I do hope people of all beliefs take advantage of it and that we can clear up our many areas of confusion, or confirm our worst fears.

    Hold on though, it could be a very bumpy ride.
     
  3. columbus

    columbus yawn <ignore> yawn

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    The biggest problem I have with the Qur'an is the claim that Muhammad is The Seal of the Prophets and the Qur'an is God's final and complete message.

    It was excellent in the 7th century, but things have changed since then. Morality has become better as humans gained more experience and information. The Qur'an retards moral improvements because it's profoundly conservative.

    This opinion is based far more on what Muslims have taught me about Islam than the Qur'an itself. Because the best English translation I've been given by Muslims was almost unreadably repetitious and stilted and I don't read 7th century Arabic.

    As sung in the original language, it's quite beautiful. But that's not the same as true, or even useful.
    Tom
     
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  4. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    I have no problem with Koran verses
    I have no problem with Muslims interpreting the verses
    Problems starts when they impose it on me/others as The Truth
    Problems starts getting bigger if they impose on me that to draw Muhammad is blasphemy
    Because my Religions tells me explicitly that draw your Istha-Deva is beneficial
    (I don't tell Muslims what they do is wrong, so don't impose on me; that's all)


    When Amanaki writes that the Koran says:
    "but hold Muhammad to be the last and greatest of these."
    "It also explicitly condemns the doctrine of the Trinity"

    (keep those things to yourself, as it belittles others)

    I read below verse, which is very clear and positive to me:
    (You need not explain it, I am happy with my interpretation)

    Koran: 5:48
     
    #4 stvdv, Sep 28, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2020
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  5. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    The problem I have with the Quran is the same problem I have with the Bible. The assumption that it provides any insight into God's will.

    There is human wisdom in both that a person can find useful. If people can use it for their benefit, great. But, to justify using violence because of your interpretation of God's will is not acceptable.
     
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  6. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

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    Well, to make a long story short, the Qu'ran and other scriptures of Islam defend the idea of "seperate spheres" between gender and provide men with the guardianship and leadership position to men in the familly and in society. That's textbook misogyny as it denies women the same stature, authonomy, power and authority over their societies.
     
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  7. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    I'm going to bypass my opportunity to critique the Qur'an -- or the Bible, or any other scripture. Instead, I'm going to just say that any text, everywhere, that makes claim to authoritative truth without bothering with the inconvenience of providing evidence for whatever it is that they proclaim, good or bad, deserves no more credulity than any individual cares to give it.
     
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  8. FearGod

    FearGod Freedom Of Mind

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    Which verses?
     
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  9. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

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    Chapter 4 verse 34 for the part specifically mentionning that men have the guardianship of women, though the idea is developped and touched on in many other verses and chapters.
     
  10. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    But the Qur'an does not say that the Qur'an is the final and complete message. You might want to read what adrian0009 posted to a Muslim a while back. Here is part of his post:

    Of course there is not a single English translation that says Muhammad is the final Prophet for all time. In plain English 'Seal of the Prophets' does not mean Muhammad is the final Prophet for all time. So it comes down to the Arabic and meanings of words that are not captured well with translation into another language.......

    So Muhammad being the seal of the Prophets clearly alludes to a lineage of Prophets from Adam to Muhammad. Baha’is call this the Adamic cycle which we believe ended with the advent of the Madhi (the Bab) during 1844. Baha'u'llah in His work the Kitab-i-Iqan alludes to with the phrase 'seal of the Prophets' and how the phrase is applicable to other Messengers/Rasool. This concept is clearly supported by Christian scripture. For example in the Book of Revelation 22:13 we have reference to Christ being the ‘Alpha and the Omega’, or the first and last letters of the Greek Alphabet. In that sense Christ is also the beginning and end and the seal of the Prophets as with Muhammad.

    #2adrian009, Wednesday at 8:37 PM
     
  11. columbus

    columbus yawn <ignore> yawn

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    Perhaps you missed the part of my post where I said:
    I'm not sure what all the Qur'an says. It's unintelligible to me, an English speaker. In fact, knowing what I know about language and translations, Scripture and ancient cultures, and a raft of other human limitations, I don't find any ancient literature particularly credible(in the modern world).

    What I go by, in my efforts to understand what the Qur'an teaches, is what Muslims tell me. Modern Muslims are the authority on Islam, from my perspective, not an English translation of ancient poetry from 7th century Arabic people. Because what modern Muslims do is what matters to me, not some long dead warlord or his primitive God image.
    Tom
     
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  12. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I'll second that, and I am surprised that not too many people have figured that out.
    I understand your predicament but I think that is a dangerous way to proceed because you are relying upon other people's opinions as to what the Qur'an means, and just as with the Christians and the Bible you are going to have Muslims telling you various things.

    That said, Muslims who know Arabic are in a much better position to understand the Qur'an.
     
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  13. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    Ha! I'm not too interested in attacking the Quran, but I fully support your willingness to bring this out in the open, and face such accusations head on. Bravo.

    I think you and I would be of an accord in suggesting that it's people and interpretations which are the issue, ultimately (not just with the Quran, or even with religion, but any body of knowledge/dogma).
     
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  14. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    It gets hard, though, right?
    I mean to say, what modern Christians do is what matters to me, in the same vein, but it's not like they're terribly consistent.
     
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  15. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Agree wholeheartedly!

    If a group does that, then they certainly don’t have God’s blessing. He’s the Creator of all men. Acts of the Apostles 17 25,26; Acts of the Apostles 10:35.
     
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  16. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg World Citizen
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    I will throw all the Love that I can at that Quran.

    After all it is the Word given by Allah, via the Messenger Muhammad.

    That is all I can attack it with, sorry to all that do not see it that way.

    Regards Tony
     
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  17. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    Can you give one specific example from the Qur'an? Then maybe one could look at it.

    As in an example for "The Qur'an retards moral improvements because it's profoundly conservative."!

    Cheers.
     
  18. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    What kind of violence and whats the justification that you are finding "disagreeable". Provide one specific example with verse and how you see it.

    Cheers.
     
  19. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    Specific example, verse, and your interpretation would be better.
     
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  20. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    So your authority is the Muslims you know. That means this thread is irrelevant to you. Am I correct?
     
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