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The attack Quran thread

Yeah bro. I absolutely cannot rank them.

Ok, no problemo!

So for me, like I think I may have mentioned before, when I look at all those translations listed on that website www.islamawakened.com, I tend to like Shakir, even though I haven't owned a Shakir Qur'an as far as I recall, and have only had access to direct Pickthal or Pickthall however it is spelled and Yusuf Ali. I get annoyed by that guy who likes translating Lord as "Sustainer" even though that is what it might mean and it might be better, I prefer Lord of the Worlds since it sounds cooler to me. Its usually just silly little things like that which end up making my decisions and rankings for how much I enjoy reading through or using the quotes. I often find myself jumping to different translations online to use certain quotes or making my own translations or altering them to make them sound more accurate in my opinion too.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Ok, no problemo!

So for me, like I think I may have mentioned before, when I look at all those translations listed on that website www.islamawakened.com, I tend to like Shakir, even though I haven't owned a Shakir Qur'an as far as I recall, and have only had access to direct Pickthal or Pickthall however it is spelled and Yusuf Ali. I get annoyed by that guy who likes translating Lord as "Sustainer" even though that is what it might mean and it might be better, I prefer Lord of the Worlds since it sounds cooler to me. Its usually just silly little things like that which end up making my decisions and rankings for how much I enjoy reading through or using the quotes. I often find myself jumping to different translations online to use certain quotes or making my own translations or altering them to make them sound more accurate in my opinion too.

Kayyoom means "to live/sustain". pretty similar to Yahweh I believe. But there are differences.
 
Kayyoom means "to live/sustain". pretty similar to Yahweh I believe. But there are differences.
The guy who likes saying Sustainer in place of Lord for Rabb (which I personally like Master for also) is a convert to Islam from Judaism I think. Asad or however it is spelled. His translation used to be at the top of the translations on www.islamawakened.com but now its not on the top anymore I think but moved somewhere lower maybe unless I'm mistaken. I like to refer to Allah or God as The Master. I thought Rabb is good as Master since the term Rabbi is also containing the same root I think and these days people might find it a bit weird to be referring to them as Lord, while Master is still sort of used when people think of a learned person in recent history or like a martial arts master or teacher or whatever. When I use the term Master though I don't think of it in such a light way but in a sort of Renfield and Dracula sort of way or like the Blue Oyster Cult song Venus in Furs, both of which have a sort of fear element or darker vibe to it, the sense of an unseen and totally dominating Master and utterly chain dragging pitiful slaves.
 
So, the Qur'an is maybe thought to claim that it is itself divine revelation and authorization specifically regarding certain things (which perhaps overtakes and is the most current and updated and final authorization and message from God before Judgment Day), but in what way can this actually be verified or how can this be understood to be true and not a matter of doubt? Like, in the case of Jesus as God (like the mainstream Christians are supposed to believe in these days), I often wonder about the idea, of how is this from God or God while what is next to it is different or not God or from God. Similarly, I was wondering, how does one distinguish what is true divinely authorized writing and commandments and scripture as compared to some other writings also being such or not being such? Is it as simple as just a claim being made in a text to be divine commandments and authorization? Couldn't anyone (particularly a person who doesn't fear any real God, or otherwise a delusional person), write that their text or whatever is coming to their mind is God or coming from God? Also, what about covert authorship, like something written by God which is recognized as being written by someone else (like literally everything in existence)?

So when the Qur'an says "This book" (and is thought to be referring to the Qur'an or what the Qur'an was expected to become after the revealing process was completed) and continues "is from your Lord", how do we know that this is the case, when this is the case, when this is not the case, when it may be the case without claiming to be the case, etc?

This might help people who don't believe in the Qur'an or understand why their own books aren't the same or aren't good enough or why they should follow any book anyway.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
The guy who likes saying Sustainer in place of Lord for Rabb (which I personally like Master for also) is a convert to Islam from Judaism I think. Asad or however it is spelled. His translation used to be at the top of the translations on www.islamawakened.com but now its not on the top anymore I think but moved somewhere lower maybe unless I'm mistaken. I like to refer to Allah or God as The Master. I thought Rabb is good as Master since the term Rabbi is also containing the same root I think and these days people might find it a bit weird to be referring to them as Lord, while Master is still sort of used when people think of a learned person in recent history or like a martial arts master or teacher or whatever. When I use the term Master though I don't think of it in such a light way but in a sort of Renfield and Dracula sort of way or like the Blue Oyster Cult song Venus in Furs, both of which have a sort of fear element or darker vibe to it, the sense of an unseen and totally dominating Master and utterly chain dragging pitiful slaves.

Why do you like Master?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
So, the Qur'an is maybe thought to claim that it is itself divine revelation and authorization specifically regarding certain things (which perhaps overtakes and is the most current and updated and final authorization and message from God before Judgment Day), but in what way can this actually be verified or how can this be understood to be true and not a matter of doubt?

Whats your exact, specific doubt?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
So when the Qur'an says "This book" (and is thought to be referring to the Qur'an or what the Qur'an was expected to become after the revealing process was completed) and continues "is from your Lord", how do we know that this is the case, when this is the case, when this is not the case, when it may be the case without claiming to be the case, etc?

What do you think it means to say "This is the book" in a book? Do you think it refers to another book?
 
What do you think it means to say "This is the book" in a book? Do you think it refers to another book?

I don't personally have any doubt regarding the Qur'an. I consider all books (even fiction and pornography) to be from God, but that the Qur'an is specifically supposed to be and work as revelation, only because it says so, and then proves it to some people by various means (like for some science, others how it makes them feel, miracles, whatever). I was asking also on behalf of other people and what I assume their doubts may be and for how you might rid them of such possible doubts so they can be sure to trust the Qur'an. As for the "This is the book", I always found that a bit weird considering the idea that it came down piece by piece and was supposedly collected later, and may have been understood as single little poems or something by people, but calling itself a kitab somehow, and I wonder what really that word could have encompassed at the time or in the minds of the people when they heard it but it was not even near completion, unless that whole idea is a myth somehow, but it makes sense that it was not completed at the time it said such, but what do you think? Other books it refers to are spiritual or mystical heavenly books perhaps, and then the books of the people of the book maybe.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I don't personally have any doubt regarding the Qur'an. I consider all books (even fiction and pornography) to be from God, but that the Qur'an is specifically supposed to be and work as revelation, only because it says so, and then proves it to some people by various means (like for some science, others how it makes them feel, miracles, whatever). I was asking also on behalf of other people and what I assume their doubts may be and for how you might rid them of such possible doubts so they can be sure to trust the Qur'an. As for the "This is the book", I always found that a bit weird considering the idea that it came down piece by piece and was supposedly collected later, and may have been understood as single little poems or something by people, but calling itself a kitab somehow, and I wonder what really that word could have encompassed at the time or in the minds of the people when they heard it but it was not even near completion, unless that whole idea is a myth somehow, but it makes sense that it was not completed at the time it said such, but what do you think? Other books it refers to are spiritual or mystical heavenly books perhaps, and then the books of the people of the book maybe.

Zalikal Kithaaba la raiba fee hi hudhallil muttaqeen. Now this statement is the first verse of the second chapter. So right off the bat the Quran says "this is the book". The thing is it doesnt stop there. It doesnt stop at "This is the book".

That sentence means "this is the book, no doubt, is a counsel/guidance for the righteous". Inside the Quran, when describes itself, it is talking about itself so that's that. It is not defining itself with the phrase "al Kithab". Its calling itself Al Kithab when it describes itself. That doesnt mean all books are referred in the Quran.

When you say "other books" what specific verse are you referring to? Please give the exact verse.
 
Zalikal Kithaaba la raiba fee hi hudhallil muttaqeen. Now this statement is the first verse of the second chapter. So right off the bat the Quran says "this is the book". The thing is it doesnt stop there. It doesnt stop at "This is the book".

That sentence means "this is the book, no doubt, is a counsel/guidance for the righteous". Inside the Quran, when describes itself, it is talking about itself so that's that. It is not defining itself with the phrase "al Kithab". Its calling itself Al Kithab when it describes itself. That doesnt mean all books are referred in the Quran.

When you say "other books" what specific verse are you referring to? Please give the exact verse.

Oh, I just meant that the Qur'an mentions the existence of other kitab's that people have access to. I'm not sure entirely if what we know of as books (the way they are bound today) would pop into the minds of people at the time, so kitab might actually mean something like scripture, which were usually kept on parchment scrolls, and were sometimes bound more into the form we know today, but otherwise were kept in scrolls in the past or rolls I think, and the scroll imagery seems to be used in other places in the Qur'an rather than the type of imagery we might think of when we today hear the word book.

Anyway, here are all the times Kitab is mentioned, but what is amazing is like you mentioned it refers to itself as Kitab even before its completion, but maybe when it does so it is a much larger corpus at that point.

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Quran Search

A HA!


Chapter (57) sūrat l-ḥadīd (The Iron)

(57:22:12)
kitābin
a Register

N – genitive masculine indefinite noun اسم مجرور
Verse (57:22)
The analysis above refers to the 22nd verse of chapter 57 (sūrat l-ḥadīd):


Sahih International: No disaster strikes upon the earth or among yourselves except that it is in a register before We bring it into being - indeed that, for Allah , is easy -


______________________
So actually, maybe it makes more sense as the word "Register" or "Record" or something, maybe even "Account" in some archaic form of the word, when it says Kitab. This is the/a Record/Account/Register of which there is no doubt. Which then doesn't really bring to mind the issue that before the book is complete, the content of the book can refer to itself as "The Book", which seems easier to me to do if it is saying "Record" since then it would be referring to what has been recorded and is being recorded, whereas a Book gives the impression of something completed and available and being referred to (like speaking of the future as if it is already here).

So when it says "Do you have a Book?" it can be saying "Do you have some account where it says...", or it says something like "their Account / Record says". Also, the Bible is a compilation of "Books" but really its a compilation of Records and Histories and Accounts of events, and Kitab from Ancient times, writing was to make an account or register things, register prices and bills paid, register events or record astronomical things, stuff like that, and they were ongoing records sometimes rather than meaning Complete Finished Book the way we think of a Book as a kind of done piece like a movie.
______________________
Chapter (57) sūrat l-ḥadīd (The Iron)

(57:29:4)
l-kitābi
(of) the Book

N – genitive masculine noun اسم مجرور
Verse (57:29)
The analysis above refers to the 29th verse of chapter 57 (sūrat l-ḥadīd):


Sahih International: [This is] so that the People of the Scripture may know that they are not able [to obtain] anything from the bounty of Allah and that [all] bounty is in the hand of Allah ; He gives it to whom He wills. And Allah is the possessor of great bounty.
_________________________


Chapter (69) sūrat l-ḥāqah (The Inevitable)

(69:19:4)
kitābahu
his record

N – accusative masculine noun
PRON – 3rd person masculine singular possessive pronoun اسم منصوب والهاء ضمير متصل في محل جر بالاضافة
Verse (69:19)
The analysis above refers to the nineteenth verse of chapter 69 (sūrat l-ḥāqah):



Sahih International: So as for he who is given his record in his right hand, he will say, "Here, read my record!
__________________________

Chapter (66) sūrat l-taḥrīm (The Prohibition)

(66:12:14)
wakutubihi
and His Books,

CONJ – prefixed conjunction wa (and)
N – genitive masculine plural noun
PRON – 3rd person masculine singular possessive pronoun الواو عاطفة
اسم مجرور والهاء ضمير متصل في محل جر بالاضافة
Verse (66:12)
The analysis above refers to the twelfth verse of chapter 66 (sūrat l-taḥrīm):


Sahih International: And [the example of] Mary, the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity, so We blew into [her garment] through Our angel, and she believed in the words of her Lord and His scriptures and was of the devoutly obedient.

______________________________

Chapter (78) sūrat l-naba (The Great News)

(78:29:4)
kitāban
(in) a Book.

N – accusative masculine indefinite noun اسم منصوب
Verse (78:29)
The analysis above refers to the 29th verse of chapter 78 (sūrat l-naba):



Sahih International: But all things We have enumerated in writing.

__________________________

Chapter (98) sūrat l-bayinah (The Clear Evidence)

(98:3:2)
kutubun
(are) writings

N – nominative masculine plural indefinite noun اسم مرفوع
Verse (98:3)
The analysis above refers to the third verse of chapter 98 (sūrat l-bayinah):



Sahih International: Within which are correct writings.

____________________

Oh, so that is interesting, maybe Writings is a good alternative too then, when goes even further away from how the word Record can also seem like a complete thing rather than scattered materials which "writings" might give more of an impression of in English.

______________________
 
Chapter (21) sūrat l-anbiyāa (The Prophets)

(21:94:12)
kātibūna
(are) Recorders.

N – nominative masculine plural active participle اسم مرفوع
Verse (21:94)
The analysis above refers to the 94th verse of chapter 21 (sūrat l-anbiyāa):

Sahih International: So whoever does righteous deeds while he is a believer - no denial will there be for his effort, and indeed We, of it, are recorders.

____________________

Chapter (82) sūrat l-infiṭār (The Cleaving)

(82:11:2)
kātibīna
recording,

ADJ – accusative masculine plural active participle صفة منصوبة
Verse (82:11)
The analysis above refers to the eleventh verse of chapter 82 (sūrat l-infiṭār):


Sahih International: Noble and recording;

Quran Recitation by

___________________________


Chapter (27) sūrat l-naml (The Ants)

(27:28:2)
bikitābī
with my letter,

P – prefixed preposition bi
N – genitive noun جار ومجرور
Verse (27:28)
The analysis above refers to the 28th verse of chapter 27 (sūrat l-naml):

Sahih International: Take this letter of mine and deliver it to them. Then leave them and see what [answer] they will return."

______________________________

Woah cool! So a K T B is basically any kind of writing at all!? So maybe it never even meant to say "This is the Book" but rather "This is the writing which is clear and without doubt" which would not create any question at the time regarding its state of continuing or being in progress or being incomplete as that verse was being revealed or written.

_______________________________

Chapter (25) sūrat l-fur'qān (The Criterion)

(25:5:4)
ik'tatabahā
which he has had written

V – 3rd person masculine singular (form VIII) perfect verb
PRON – 3rd person feminine singular object pronoun فعل ماض و«ها» ضمير متصل في محل نصب مفعول به
Verse (25:5)
The analysis above refers to the fifth verse of chapter 25 (sūrat l-fur'qān):

Sahih International: And they say, "Legends of the former peoples which he has written down, and they are dictated to him morning and afternoon."

_____________________________

Chapter (24) sūrat l-nūr (The Light)

(24:33:17)
fakātibūhum
then give them (the) writing

REM – prefixed resumption particle
V – 2nd person masculine plural (form III) imperative verb
PRON – subject pronoun
PRON – 3rd person masculine plural object pronoun الفاء استئنافية
فعل أمر والواو ضمير متصل في محل رفع فاعل و«هم» ضمير متصل في محل نصب مفعول به
Verse (24:33)
The analysis above refers to the 33rd verse of chapter 24 (sūrat l-nūr):

Sahih International: But let them who find not [the means for] marriage abstain [from sexual relations] until Allah enriches them from His bounty. And those who seek a contract [for eventual emancipation] from among whom your right hands possess - then make a contract with them if you know there is within them goodness and give them from the wealth of Allah which He has given you. And do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, if they desire chastity, to seek [thereby] the temporary interests of worldly life. And if someone should compel them, then indeed, Allah is [to them], after their compulsion, Forgiving and Merciful.

______________________________

Chapter (4) sūrat l-nisāa (The Women)

(4:127:20)
kutiba
is ordained

V – 3rd person masculine singular passive perfect verb فعل ماض مبني للمجهول
Verse (4:127)
The analysis above refers to the 127th verse of chapter 4 (sūrat l-nisāa):

Sahih International: And they request from you, [O Muhammad], a [legal] ruling concerning women. Say, " Allah gives you a ruling about them and [about] what has been recited to you in the Book concerning the orphan girls to whom you do not give what is decreed for them - and [yet] you desire to marry them - and concerning the oppressed among children and that you maintain for orphans [their rights] in justice." And whatever you do of good - indeed, Allah is ever Knowing of it.

_____________________________________

Yeah, the translators suck! I think this single word and root KTB should probably be "writing" then or "record" or something other than Book which in English these days (even though it is writing and a record and recorded writing) gives a sort of different mental impression and has sort of different or more ideas attached where the Qur'an is using the KTB in a way that doesn't really have those connotations or visuals implied.

_____________________________________

Chapter (6) sūrat l-anʿām (The Cattle)

(6:12:9)
kataba
He has decreed

V – 3rd person masculine singular perfect verb فعل ماض
Verse (6:12)
The analysis above refers to the twelfth verse of chapter 6 (sūrat l-anʿām):

Sahih International: Say, "To whom belongs whatever is in the heavens and earth?" Say, "To Allah." He has decreed upon Himself mercy. He will surely assemble you for the Day of Resurrection, about which there is no doubt. Those who will lose themselves [that Day] do not believe.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Oh, I just meant that the Qur'an mentions the existence of other kitab's that people have access to. I'm not sure entirely if what we know of as books (the way they are bound today) would pop into the minds of people at the time, so kitab might actually mean something like scripture, which were usually kept on parchment scrolls, and were sometimes bound more into the form we know today, but otherwise were kept in scrolls in the past or rolls I think, and the scroll imagery seems to be used in other places in the Qur'an rather than the type of imagery we might think of when we today hear the word book.

Anyway, here are all the times Kitab is mentioned, but what is amazing is like you mentioned it refers to itself as Kitab even before its completion, but maybe when it does so it is a much larger corpus at that point.

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Quran Search

A HA!


Chapter (57) sūrat l-ḥadīd (The Iron)

(57:22:12)
kitābin
a Register

N – genitive masculine indefinite noun اسم مجرور
Verse (57:22)
The analysis above refers to the 22nd verse of chapter 57 (sūrat l-ḥadīd):


Sahih International: No disaster strikes upon the earth or among yourselves except that it is in a register before We bring it into being - indeed that, for Allah , is easy -


______________________
So actually, maybe it makes more sense as the word "Register" or "Record" or something, maybe even "Account" in some archaic form of the word, when it says Kitab. This is the/a Record/Account/Register of which there is no doubt. Which then doesn't really bring to mind the issue that before the book is complete, the content of the book can refer to itself as "The Book", which seems easier to me to do if it is saying "Record" since then it would be referring to what has been recorded and is being recorded, whereas a Book gives the impression of something completed and available and being referred to (like speaking of the future as if it is already here).

So when it says "Do you have a Book?" it can be saying "Do you have some account where it says...", or it says something like "their Account / Record says". Also, the Bible is a compilation of "Books" but really its a compilation of Records and Histories and Accounts of events, and Kitab from Ancient times, writing was to make an account or register things, register prices and bills paid, register events or record astronomical things, stuff like that, and they were ongoing records sometimes rather than meaning Complete Finished Book the way we think of a Book as a kind of done piece like a movie.
______________________
Chapter (57) sūrat l-ḥadīd (The Iron)

(57:29:4)
l-kitābi
(of) the Book

N – genitive masculine noun اسم مجرور
Verse (57:29)
The analysis above refers to the 29th verse of chapter 57 (sūrat l-ḥadīd):


Sahih International: [This is] so that the People of the Scripture may know that they are not able [to obtain] anything from the bounty of Allah and that [all] bounty is in the hand of Allah ; He gives it to whom He wills. And Allah is the possessor of great bounty.
_________________________


Chapter (69) sūrat l-ḥāqah (The Inevitable)

(69:19:4)
kitābahu
his record

N – accusative masculine noun
PRON – 3rd person masculine singular possessive pronoun اسم منصوب والهاء ضمير متصل في محل جر بالاضافة
Verse (69:19)
The analysis above refers to the nineteenth verse of chapter 69 (sūrat l-ḥāqah):



Sahih International: So as for he who is given his record in his right hand, he will say, "Here, read my record!
__________________________

Chapter (66) sūrat l-taḥrīm (The Prohibition)

(66:12:14)
wakutubihi
and His Books,

CONJ – prefixed conjunction wa (and)
N – genitive masculine plural noun
PRON – 3rd person masculine singular possessive pronoun الواو عاطفة
اسم مجرور والهاء ضمير متصل في محل جر بالاضافة
Verse (66:12)
The analysis above refers to the twelfth verse of chapter 66 (sūrat l-taḥrīm):


Sahih International: And [the example of] Mary, the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity, so We blew into [her garment] through Our angel, and she believed in the words of her Lord and His scriptures and was of the devoutly obedient.

______________________________

Chapter (78) sūrat l-naba (The Great News)

(78:29:4)
kitāban
(in) a Book.

N – accusative masculine indefinite noun اسم منصوب
Verse (78:29)
The analysis above refers to the 29th verse of chapter 78 (sūrat l-naba):



Sahih International: But all things We have enumerated in writing.

__________________________

Chapter (98) sūrat l-bayinah (The Clear Evidence)

(98:3:2)
kutubun
(are) writings

N – nominative masculine plural indefinite noun اسم مرفوع
Verse (98:3)
The analysis above refers to the third verse of chapter 98 (sūrat l-bayinah):



Sahih International: Within which are correct writings.

____________________

Oh, so that is interesting, maybe Writings is a good alternative too then, when goes even further away from how the word Record can also seem like a complete thing rather than scattered materials which "writings" might give more of an impression of in English.

______________________

Kithab means book, writing, record, register of events, what ever that is put down for people to read. If I say Kathabahoo its to say "I am writing" or the action of writing so it has nothing about a physical book. Its the thought of writing. If I am dictating something to someone else to write I say "asthakathabuhoo". All derived from the word Kathab (kaf, the, be). I can even say about a law that's canonised like a traffic law. It doesnt mean I am talking about a book, its just Kuthiba

No one in the world would ever dream that every mention of the word Kithab is the Quran anywhere.

The word "Book" refers to the Quran, the tale of two cities, and the radiant way. It will refer to a pdf on the Internet. Its a generic word.

But in the Quran, when it says "This is the book where there is no doubt a guidance for the Muttaqeen", its referring to itself. Brother. Thats simple common sense.
 
Last edited:

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
This thread is opened purely to have a thread where people can attack the Quran. Prove all their claims that Quran promotes misogyny, racism, murder of innocents, etc etc that people make in threads that are not relevant to that topic.
I do not want to attack the Qur'an, I want to defend it, but I do not know it well enough to defend it.
But as you know, Baha'is uphold the Qur'an as the Word of God.

I want to defend it because a Hindu on another forum is attacking Islam, and I think he is ignorant as well as arrogant. Is it okay if I ask you some questions?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I do not want to attack the Qur'an, I want to defend it, but I do not know it well enough to defend it.
But as you know, Baha'is uphold the Qur'an as the Word of God.

I want to defend it because a Hindu on another forum is attacking Islam, and I think he is ignorant as well as arrogant. Is it okay if I ask you some questions?

You can post his attack here. We could analyse together.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You can post his attack here. We could analyse together.
I am not sure you would really want to see it, it is pretty ugly. :(

Besides, if I was to take some of what he said and post it here, I would have to get permission from the staff here on RF. As an alternative, I could give you the link to that forum and you could go and read what he said and answer him there or bring it back here to discuss. I am not a regular poster on that forum anymore so I have not been following much of it, but I saw enough to be concerned.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I am not sure you would really want to see it, it is pretty ugly. :(

Besides, if I was to take some of what he said and post it here, I would have to get permission from the staff here on RF. As an alternative, I could give you the link to that forum and you could go and read what he said and answer him there or bring it back here to discuss. I am not a regular poster on that forum anymore so I have not been following much of it, but I saw enough to be concerned.

Sure sis. Why not! You can give me the link.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I am not sure you would really want to see it, it is pretty ugly. :(

Besides, if I was to take some of what he said and post it here, I would have to get permission from the staff here on RF. As an alternative, I could give you the link to that forum and you could go and read what he said and answer him there or bring it back here to discuss. I am not a regular poster on that forum anymore so I have not been following much of it, but I saw enough to be concerned.

Oh. Maybe I did not understand you. Are you referring to the same forum RF but another area?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Oh. Maybe I did not understand you. Are you referring to the same forum RF but another area?
No, I am referring to a Baha'i forum, bro.:D
I just came from there and I saw that some Baha'is were doing a pretty good job of defending Muhammad and Islam against that Hindu, but you can go there and join the discussion if you want to. Sadly, there are no Muslims there, and it is not a really active forum anymore, but that thread about Muhammad is pretty active.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
No, I am referring to a Baha'i forum, bro.:D
I just came from there and I saw that some Baha'is were doing a pretty good job of defending Muhammad and Islam against that Hindu, but you can go there and join the discussion if you want to. Sadly, there are no Muslims there, and it is not a really active forum anymore, but that thread about Muhammad is pretty active.

Oh okay. Maybe I dont have access.
 
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