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The attack Quran thread

firedragon

Veteran Member
No, that is not my "logic." I specifically asked you MULTIMPLE TIMES if there is any sort of analysis of WHY two separate words like this were used. Unfortunately for the reputation of Islam, the writers chose to use the "strike" version for the male side of things. You understand COMPLETELY why this is unfortunate, I am sure, and exactly why it poses the problem that it does. Don't lie now.

I also asked you why YOU think the word choice is different. No answer from you. I know why... I just find it very cowardly is all. Again, you represent your faith here with your dealings. You aren't even the least convincing that this stuff is worth a second glance with your behavior thus far. I am frankly getting tired of dealing with you.

Mate. There are about 10 to 12 different words used. So your logic is absolutely "So because both sentences dont use the same word, number 1 "cannot mean leave". Thats your logic." Invalid logic.

How about the word Wazara. That means leave. And is used in the Quran. So is Dharb. Then the word "Hijab" is used for a separation. So is Azeena. So is Fariq. So is Zayyal. Many words are used.

So your logic that says in one verse its another word, so in this case because its woman it definitely has to be beat physically.

Its logically not sound. Linguistically, its honestly ridiculous.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Mate. There are about 10 to 12 different words used. So your logic is absolutely "So because both sentences dont use the same word, number 1 "cannot mean leave". Thats your logic." Invalid logic.

How about the word Wazara. That means leave. And is used in the Quran. So is Dharb. Then the word "Hijab" is used for a separation. So is Azeena. So is Fariq. So is Zayyal. Many words are used.

So your logic that says in one verse its another word, so in this case because its woman it definitely has to be beat physically.

Its logically not sound. Linguistically, its honestly ridiculous.
I DON'T CARE ABOUT THE "LOGIC." The difference of the word "strike" in that passage, with a woman as the target DOES NOT EVOKE A "LOGICAL" RESPONSE. I keep trying to tell you that people are going to find fault with these texts for exactly the reasons I keep stating, and yet you keep citing "logic" as your "get out of jail free card." It's never going to work.

Also... still no answer from you. You understand what this makes you in my eyes.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Well if you dont care about the logic, your own logic, there is no point in making any.
Making any what? "Logic?" How does one "make logic?" What the hell are you even talking about now?

In the end, I am 100% positive that you understand exactly why people take issue with these writings, and exactly why your religious texts are under the gun. You like to play pretend that you are completely naïve and play the damsel in distress with your hand over your heart saying "I just don't know why anyone would have a problem with what is written in this glorious text." It's an act. You're acting. The saddest part is that you don't even seem to realize it. Islam has told you: "dance, puppet, dance" and you're out here jiggling like one of those blow-up, used-car-sales balloon-men.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I DON'T CARE ABOUT THE "LOGIC." The difference of the word "strike" in that passage, with a woman as the target DOES NOT EVOKE A "LOGICAL" RESPONSE. I keep trying to tell you that people are going to find fault with these texts for exactly the reasons I keep stating, and yet you keep citing "logic" as your "get out of jail free card." It's never going to work.

Also... still no answer from you. You understand what this makes you in my eyes.

Excuse me mate. You just said coward and then changed it. Please show some dignity in discussion with anyone.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Making any what? "Logic?" How does one "make logic?" What the hell are you even talking about now?

In the end, I am 100% positive that you understand exactly why people take issue with these writings, and exactly why your religious texts are under the gun. You like to play pretend that you are completely naïve and play the damsel in distress with your hand over your heart saying "I just don't know why anyone would have a problem with what is written in this glorious text." It's an act. You're acting. The saddest part is that you don't even seem to realize it. Islam has told you: "dance, puppet, dance" and you're out here jiggling like one of those blow-up, used-car-sales balloon-men.

Nah. You dont care about logic so there is no point. And you are making personal attacks on people calling the coward.

Sorry but I will discuss only with decent people.

Have a great day.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Excuse me mate. You just said coward and then changed it. Please show some dignity in discussion with anyone.
I wanted to ameliorate it a bit, because I realized I was a little too directly harsh. It is, honestly, what I think, and if you'd rather I call you "coward" straight out, we can go that route. Just say the word.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I wanted to ameliorate it a bit, because I realized I was a little too directly harsh. It is, honestly, what I think, and if you'd rather I call you "coward" straight out, we can go that route. Just say the word.

You already did brother. You already did call me a "coward". Then you edited it. So, if that's how low people stoop, its truly absurd to interact with that type of people.

Ciao.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
But you are a coward. According to the evidence - you refusing to answer even a question as to whether or not there is analysis as to why two separate words were used for what YOU claim is the same thing. That's all I asked... but it was too much for you. It was. I see it all the time, honestly. All the time. You won't say things, or can't say them because you fear how much you will have let on that you understand the points being made... that your act of naivete will be unmasked. That you will fail your precious religion. Be off with you then. And go ahead and report me, by the way. I completely understand why you would.

Nice. Cheers.
 

Hermit Philosopher

Selflessly here for you
If you meant "Honour Killings" and some thing like that, it has nothing to do with the Qur'an.


Dear firedragon

Thank you for your kind reply and for bearing with my ignorance in this most sensitive of matters.

I think, I was referring to honour-related crimes and I am very glad to know that they have nothing to do with the Qur'an, because I’d been trying to understand it from a spiritual perspective and was really struggling.

It is a pity when people - of any faith - claim to do the things they do in [their] God’s name; when really it is done in name of their own personal egos.

Humbly
Hermit
 

Hellbound Serpiente

Active Member
I hope you can clarify this attack which I have come across [and I personally think it's valid, thus bringing it to you].

As we all know, The Holy Qur'an condones slavery. Now, how can any sensible individual take The Holy Qur'an seriously as a moral compass for all eras when it condones something as primitive and morally unacceptable as slavery? Don't get me wrong, I personally think The Holy Qur'an is sacred and is of divine nature, but this part baffles me. Perhaps I got things twisted and misunderstood it [which most likely is the case, as I mostly get things wrong]. In our modern enlightened era, no morally upright individual would ever consider slavery to be virtuous, then why The Holy Qur'an condones it?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Dear firedragon

Thank you for your kind reply and for bearing with my ignorance in this most sensitive of matters.

I think, I was referring to honour-related crimes and I am very glad to know that they have nothing to do with the Qur'an, because I’d been trying to understand it from a spiritual perspective and was really struggling.

It is a pity when people - of any faith - claim to do the things they do in [their] God’s name; when really it is done in name of their own personal egos.

Humbly
Hermit

Only today ironically I was talking about an honour killing in India where a guy from a low caste was killed by his wife family who are from a higher caste. He was murdered right in front of his 23 year old wife. Honour killing has nothing to do with any faith, it has everything to do with culture.

This is a sociological question really.

Have a great day Hermit Philosopher.
 

Samantha Rinne

Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
Which post are you referring to?

This one.

I see that you are being sarcastic/facetious here, but I will bite.

I do think it is exactly as you say in your little passive-aggressive, "I'm on your side, buddy" reply above. They didn't go further because they knew that to actually call out what they were building into the texts (possibly without even realizing it! Because these things were just "the norm" at the time) would be accepted poorly by various sorts of people, and as you lose more and more favor, the ideas you want everyone else to adopt begin falling further and further from plausibly becoming the standard. It's political, in other words. To get the job done, you have to pander to your entire audience a bit - making sure to include recommendations and selling points for everyone involved. It just so happens that, during the time that it was written, they didn't have to consider women's feelings on the matter as much - because they were already more background players. Human beings, nonetheless, of course, but I feel that idea wasn't even contemplated beyond a simple "Yeah, yeah, women are humans, sure." sort of laissez faire attitude. Hell... there are people today with that exact same attitude, and historically we are aware that societies of all stripes have been mostly patriarchal in nature - with women literally getting the short end of the stick in a great many avenues of life. Why is it just SO HARD to believe that the men who wrote the Quran held some of those same assumptions? They obviously did - and do you think that wasn't going to come through in their writing? Quite a naïve position to take, honestly.

The men who wrote the Quran.

Not assuming Muhammad wrote it, but that a group of men.

As I say, if we cast doubt on the origin, then we have problems with its legitimacy. Why should women wear hijab, if it's not Muhammad handing this teaching down from Allah, but a group of unknown freaks that get off on making women feel worthless by covering their bodies? Why should Muslim men try to spread (with violence in somw cases) a teaching that is actually based on a lie? Why should people blow themselves up for such a teaching? Btw, the Muslim afterlife makes zero sense. It isa purely physical afterlife, when much of the body goes instead to the ground, leaving just spirir and soul. What good are a bunch of virgins to a soul? Why would someone die for this? And why would they kill for it? This is called, getting used for a lie.

Muslim apologists will then try to turn this around and say "Well Christianity is just the same!" Are you sure? Because Christ seems to be actively trying to save souls, and his teachings are difficult but of value. Such that even when threatened with death and torture, the early martyrs endured. Muslims only "martyr" themselves for a promiseof reward, and are not willing to suffer, they die after killing others, taking an easy way out. The early Christians would endure hours in freezing cold, being burned alive, eaten by wild beasts, and yet would still testify to the Gospel. Lies don't change people's lives, and Islam appears to be the same sort of spiritual rebellion that people lived in during the time of Noah. Meanwhile , even losers like me have a sense of "chop wood and carry water" (if you don't get the expression, it refers to how your life might not on the surface appear to change, you still have the same duties, but things are meaningful now). Drunks have recovered and are sober now, unwanted people belong now. This is the change that finding a sense of grace produces.

I have looked at COVID-19 for... what is it, six months now? Nine months? Time is kinda meaningless to all this. You know what I've noticed? How much it resembles a modified Sharia. All you infidels have to wear masks, but radical black people in BLM (many of whom are probably aligned with Islam don't). Women wear masks under Sharia, so westerners are basically being made the *****es of a secular/Islamic globalist alliance. You know what else I've noticed? How while embracing the phony meducal reasons for what is clearly grooming to accept wearing other masks, people have lost a sense that others need grace and forgiveness, that people are welcome at their door without any questions asked.
Did Jesus say, "Ask and you'll be told we don't help ppl with COVID"? "Knock and the door will be locked"? "Seek and there is nothing open right now, not unless you wear a mask"? No, I think he also encouraged feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, welcoming the stranger, visiting the imprisoned. All of us are imprisoned right now. So where are the values of hospitality? They've been supplanted by foreign values in defiance of God. No, it's not just the same as Christianity. Islam is a lie, which doesn't change people's lives but puts them back in a box of "unwanted/nonessential" .
 
Last edited:

firedragon

Veteran Member
This one.



The men who wrote the Quran.

Not assuming Muhammad wrote it, but that a group of men.

As I say, if we cast doubt on the origin, then we have problems with its legitimacy. Why should women wear hijab, if it's not Muhammad handing this teaching down from Allah, but a group of unknown freaks that get off on making women feel worthless by covering their bodies? Why should Muslim men try to spread (with violence in somw cases) a teaching that is actually based on a lie? Why should people blow themselves up for such a teaching? Btw, the Muslim afterlife makes zero sense. It isa purely physical afterlife, when much of the body goes instead to the ground, leaving just spirir and soul. What good are a bunch of virgins to a soul? Why would someone die for this?

Thats not my comment.
 

Hellbound Serpiente

Active Member
Well, that's a valid question. Which passage are you referring to?

Successful indeed are the believers Who are humble in their prayers, And who shun vain conversation, And who are payers of the poor-due; And who guard their modesty - Save from their wives or the (slaves) that their right hands possess, for then they are not blameworthy. Quran 23:1-6

This is just one of the many, MANY verses that comes to my mind. I've forgotten most of the verses. I remember I gave about 15 verses talking about slaves and their treatment in other topic around 3-4 months ago when talking about the subject with another Muslim brother here. Regardless, considering the fact that, historically, Prophet Muhammad S.A.W himself had slaves and engaged in slave trading [I can think of Maria al-Qibtiyya] is, in itself, a concrete evidence that Islam promotes slavery.

Now, if The Holy Qur'an was really ever-guiding moral compass, why didn't it just explicitly abolished slavery, explained it's evils and set up penalties against it's practicing like it did with alcohol and swine [which, btw, are no way NEAR slavery in terms of overall harmfulness]?

Maybe I am getting something wrong here, but history and Qur'an is proving otherwise
 

Hellbound Serpiente

Active Member
Here are some more which talks about the subject [just copy/pasting it]:


Quran[edit]
  • It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or west; but it is righteousness to believe in God and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the God-fearing.
    • Quran, 2:177
  • Do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters), until they believe: A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you. Nor marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe: A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though he allures you. Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the Fire. But God beckons by His Grace to the Garden (of bliss) and forgiveness, and makes His Signs clear to mankind: That they may celebrate His praise.
    • Quran, 2:221
  • If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess: And God hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another: Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable: They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours: when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
    • Quran, 4:25
  • And in no wise covet those things in which God Hath bestowed His gifts More freely on some of you than on others: To men is allotted what they earn, and to women what they earn: But ask God of His bounty. For God hath full knowledge of all things.
    • Quran, 4:32
  • Serve God, and join not any partners with Him; and do good- to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, neighbours who are near, neighbours who are strangers, the companion by your side, the wayfarer (ye meet), and what your right hands poss ess: For God loveth not the arrogant, the vainglorious.
    • Quran, 4:36
  • Never should a believer kill a believer; but (If it so happens) by mistake, (Compensation is due): If one (so) kills a believer, it is ordained that he should free a believing slave, and pay compensation to the deceased's family, unless they re mit it freely. If the deceased belonged to a people at war with you, and he was a believer, the freeing of a believing slave (Is enough). If he belonged to a people with whom ye have treaty of Mutual alliance, compensation should be paid to his family, and a believing slave be freed. For those who find this beyond their means, (is prescribed) a fast for two months running: by way of repentance to God: for God hath all knowledge and all wisdom.
    • Quran, 4:92
  • God will not call you to account for what is futile in your oaths, but He will call you to account for your deliberate oaths: for expiation, feed ten indigent persons, on a scale of the average for the food of your families; or clothe them; or give a slave his freedom. If that is beyond your means, fast for three days. That is the expiation for the oaths ye have sworn. But keep to your oaths. Thus doth God make clear to you His signs, that ye may be grateful.
    • Quran, 5:89
  • Alms are for the poor and the needy, and those employed to administer the (funds); for those whose hearts have been (recently) reconciled (to Truth); for those in bondage and in debt; in the cause of God; and for the wayfarer: (thus is it) orda ined by God, and God is full of knowledge and wisdom.
    • Quran, 9:60
  • Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until God gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which God has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is God, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them).
    • Quran, 24:33
  • O ye who believe! let those whom your right hands possess, and the (children) among you who have not come of age ask your permission (before they come to your presence), on three occasions: before morning prayer; the while ye doff your clothes for the noonday heat; and after the late-night prayer: these are your three times of undress: outside those times it is not wrong for you or for them to move about attending to each other: Thus does God make clear the Signs to you: for God is full of knowledge and wisdom.
    • Quran, 24:58
  • But those who divorce their wives by Zihar, then wish to go back on the words they uttered, (It is ordained that such a one) should free a slave before they touch each other: Thus are ye admonished to perform: and God is well-acquainted with (all) that ye do.
    • Quran, 58:3
  • Quran (33:50) - "O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those (slaves) whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee"
  • Quran (23:5-6) - "..who abstain from sex, except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess..."
  • Quran (8:69-71) - "But (now) enjoy what ye took in war, lawful and good".... "Allah gave you mastery over them."
  • Quran (24:32) - "And marry those among you who are single and those who are fit among your male slaves and your female slaves..."
  • Quran (2:178) - "O ye who believe! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the murdered; the freeman for the freeman, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female."
  • Allah sets forth the Parable (of two men: one) a slave under the dominion of another; He has no power of any sort; and (the other) a man on whom We have bestowed goodly favors from Ourselves, and he spends thereof (freely), privately and publicly: are the two equal? (By no means) praise be to Allah. But most of them understand not.
    • Quran 16:75
  • And Allah hath favored some of you above others in provision. Now those who are more favored will by no means hand over their provision to those (slaves) whom their right hands possess, so that they may be equal with them in respect thereof. Is it then the grace of Allah that they deny?
    • Quran 16:71
  • Prohibited to you (For marriage) are:- Your mothers, daughters, sisters; father's sisters, Mother's sisters; brother's daughters, sister's daughters; foster-mothers (Who gave you suck), foster-sisters; your wives' mothers; your step-daughters under your guardianship, born of your wives to whom ye have gone in,- no prohibition if ye have not gone in;- (Those who have been) wives of your sons proceeding from your loins; and two sisters in wedlock at one and the same time, except for what is past; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful;-Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess: Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
    • Quran 4:23-24
  • Successful indeed are the believers Who are humble in their prayers, And who shun vain conversation, And who are payers of the poor-due; And who guard their modesty - Save from their wives or the (slaves) that their right hands possess, for then they are not blameworthy
    • Quran 23:1-6
  • O Prophet! Lo! We have made lawful unto thee thy wives unto whom thou hast paid their dowries, and those whom thy right hand possesseth of those whom Allah hath given thee as spoils of war, and the daughters of thine uncle on the father's side and the daughters of thine aunts on the father's side, and the daughters of thine uncle on the mother's side and the daughters of thine aunts on the mother's side who emigrated with thee, and a believing woman if she give herself unto the Prophet and the Prophet desire to ask her in marriage - a privilege for thee only, not for the (rest of) believers - We are Aware of that which We enjoined upon them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess - that thou mayst be free from blame, for Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.
    • Quran 33:50
  • And those who guard their chastity, Except with their wives and the (captives) whom their right hands possess,- for (then) they are not to be blamed.
    • Quran 70:29-30
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Successful indeed are the believers Who are humble in their prayers, And who shun vain conversation, And who are payers of the poor-due; And who guard their modesty - Save from their wives or the (slaves) that their right hands possess, for then they are not blameworthy. Quran 23:1-6

This is just one of the many, MANY verses that comes to my mind. I've forgotten most of the verses. I remember I gave about 15 verses talking about slaves and their treatment in other topic around 3-4 months ago when talking about the subject with another Muslim brother here. Regardless, considering the fact that, historically, Prophet Muhammad S.A.W himself had slaves and engaged in slave trading [I can think of Maria al-Qibtiyya] is, in itself, a concrete evidence that Islam promotes slavery.

Now, if The Holy Qur'an was really ever-guiding moral compass, why didn't it just explicitly abolished slavery, explained it's evils and set up penalties against it's practicing like it did with alcohol and swine [which, btw, are no way NEAR slavery in terms of overall harmfulness]?

Maybe I am getting something wrong here, but history and Qur'an is proving otherwise

Great. Thanks for quoting the verse you are referring to.

Hellbound. Please note that in the verse you quoted, the word slaves is inside brackets, and not in the sentence. The sentence used here is "Ma malakut aymaanukum" and honestly I am very well aware of this. It doesn't mean slaves in any sense whatsoever. People assume it means slaves so they put the word slave inside brackets as inference.

What is the other verse that you speak of?
 
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