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The Argument for God(Or Against God) Is Never a Logical One.

jml03

Member
Yes, because god merely "poofing" it all into existence is so much more believable. :rolleyes:

So, you're saying you have no reply about the questions I posted, just this comment to bash my beliefs? Funny how some people don't know how to take questions about the absurdity of their belief.
 

jml03

Member
No one's. It's by logic.



Your second part answers your first. No, it would not be logical to say the sun doesn't exist because you're blind. You'd still be able to feel its effects. It's not logical to say wind doesn't exist because we can't see it.



The sun being real is not illogical to a blind person. The problem is whether or not you've felt him or just thought you felt him. I can guarantee I've felt the same things you have. I just attribute them to nature and psychology, while you attribute them to God.



:facepalm: Yes, of course. The "No True Scotsman" fallacy. You're pulling out all the stops now, huh? Of course it's because I wasn't a "good Christian". I was just "going through the motions". Thanks for telling me what I used to do and feel, but I think I'm a better judge of that. I felt the same things you've felt, and at the time I thought it was God. I have since realized that it wasn't God at all.[/QUOTE

I have no idea why the "Scotsman" remark came into play. Honestly, I've no idea what you are talking about. And I'm not making assumptions about you. You said yourself that you went to church all those many years and never felt anything, then you started to question ----- so what would you call going somewhere because of some obligation to your family, etc? ITS CALLED RITUAL --- something out of habit for you that had no meaning. No assumptions, I just actually read your post.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
And this is the difference, as has already been pointed out. Whether or not you use feelings and instinct to pick your mate is irrelevant. You use logic and reason to determine that your possible mate is a real person. In the case of choosing God, you're skipping the logic and reason part that determines whether he's real in the first place, so that there's something there for your feelings and instincts to tell you to love.
If they have defined a relationship, why do you assume it's with something not real?
 

jml03

Member
I had the feeling this was the case. This comes up quite often. It seems that you are one who thinks that any time someone questions your belief or tries to debate anything concerning your God, it's "mocking" or "picking at". I have not mocked anything of yours, and I'm sorry you choose to see it that way. But even if I had, there's no way 9/10s Penguin did, because while I might be guilty of that from time to time, that is just not his style.



The problem is you haven't let me rebuttals to you sink in.



Where did I say something that could be taken as that?

I don't think I have anything to worry about - it is the nonbelievers that I pray for.

Yes, of course, you don't think you have anything to worry about. My point is that I'm as likely as you to not go to hell. You say I can't afford to be wrong about this, but then neither can you. The truth is in all of the possible scenarios involving a heaven and hell, you're as likely to end up in hell as I am, even though you believe in your god and I don't.

And again, I am here to defend what I believe. I accept that you do not believe in anything greater than yourself.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
But yet, you seem to know SO MUCH, why not just answer the questions I've set before you. Then re-read them and see how logical they sound. Because to me, they are ridiculous.

Huh? Yes, I know a bit about evolution. I'm extremely far from being an expert, but we do have one resident biologist here who's an expert.

I'm not sure what questions you're referring to. I answered the ones about evolution. What am I supposed to re-read? The questions or my answers? Because I already view the questions as ridiculous, but it doesn't seem like you think they are.

If you don't mean those questions, which questions should I just answer?
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
I have no idea why the "Scotsman" remark came into play.

Because you used the "No True Scotsman" fallacy, which means you redefine a term anytime you need to, basically. I might have been a Catholic, but I wasn't a "true Christian" because I wouldn't have ended up as I am.

Honestly, I've no idea what you are talking about. And I'm not making assumptions about you. You said yourself that you went to church all those many years and never felt anything, then you started to question ----- so what would you call going somewhere because of some obligation to your family, etc? ITS CALLED RITUAL --- something out of habit for you that had no meaning. No assumptions, I just actually read your post.

Apparently, you didn't read it very well. I didn't say that I never felt anything. All I said was that I was Catholic for 18 years. You then somehow assumed that I never felt anything. I never went to church out of obligation to my family. So, it seems maybe you should go back and read and not make assumptions.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
And again, I am here to defend what I believe. I accept that you do not believe in anything greater than yourself.

Why? That's not what this thread is about. This thread is about whether or not the question of God's existence is subject to logical inquiry. It's not about whether or not God exists. I'm not trying to argue that God doesn't exist. When you gave your description of your god earlier, I didn't say it was illogical or that he doesn't exist. I said your definition was either logical or illogical.
 

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
So, you're saying you have no reply about the questions I posted, just this comment to bash my beliefs? Funny how some people don't know how to take questions about the absurdity of their belief.
NO, I am merely pointing out that you dismiss one thing as being unbelievable yet believe something that is just as, if not more, unbelievable.

Since you know absolutely nothing about my beliefs...
 

jml03

Member
My God is real, He's real in my soul.
He has washed, and He made me whole.
His love for me, is like pure gold.
My God is real, for I can FEEL Him in my soul.

I'm sorry that you have not felt that. To explain it to you, as best I can - it's like butterflies in my heart. It is the greatest sense of peace. It is waking up and being thankful that He gave you another day - yet at the same time, you don't fear death. It is a feeling of self worth. It is a feeling of responsibility - to spread how He has changed you. It is a feeling of love, like none other. It is not fearing tomorrow. It is not worrying with the things of the past. It is knowing that Someone is in control. He loves you no matter what you are doing, I know this because He loves me and I have sinned and continue to sin and how can He love me and not love you? I have given arguments and comparisons to my logic in God, but to what avail? I won't change your beliefs, and that's not what it's about. I will not stand by though and see someone ridicule my Savior. As long as I have the ability, I will defend my beliefs and the truth about God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.

As for logic, thank you. Thank you all for making me realize that it's not necessary for me to believe.

1Corinthians 1:26 - 1:27
For ye see your calling brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty.

Matthew 7:6
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
 
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McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
My God is real, He's real in my soul.
He has washed, and He made me whole.
His love for me, is like pure gold.
My God is real, for I can FEEL Him in my soul.

I'm sorry that you have not felt that. To explain it to you, as best I can - it's like butterflies in my heart. It is the greatest sense of peace. It is waking up and being thankful that He gave you another day - yet at the same time, you don't fear death. It is a feeling of self worth. It is a feeling of responsibility - to spread how He has changed you. It is a feeling of love, like none other. It is not fearing tomorrow. It is not worrying with the things of the past. It is knowing that Someone is in control. He loves you no matter what you are doing, I know this because He loves me and I have sinned and continue to sin and how can He love me and not love you? I have given arguments and comparisons to my logic in God, but to what avail? I won't change your beliefs, and that's not what it's about. I will not stand by though and see someone ridicule my Savior. As long as I have the ability, I will defend my beliefs and the truth about God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.

As for logic, thank you. Thank you all for making me realize that it's not necessary for me to believe.

1Corinthians 1:26 - 1:27
For ye see your calling brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty.

Matthew 7:6
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
I bet Sigmund Freud would love this post...:yes:
 

Beaudreaux

Well-Known Member
An interesting and thoughtful OP. Thank you!


Two questions for you:
  1. We are not born believing in God, therefore there must have been a time when you did not believe in God. What happened to cause you to believe?
  2. If God is beyond human logic and understanding, would you agree that it is a complete waste of time trying to know anything about him?
Bumping and asking for anyone who has a response. (ChristineES has not shown up here in some time. Hope everything is OK.)
 

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
Bumping and asking for anyone who has a response.

(ChristineES has not shown up here in some time. Hope everything is OK.)
Me too.


  1. We are not born believing in God, therefore there must have been a time when you did not believe in God. What happened to cause you to believe?
  2. If God is beyond human logic and understanding, would you agree that it is a complete waste of time trying to know anything about him?
1. I became very sick, touch and go at one point. I felt I wasn't alone and that feeling hasn't left me. I don't expect it to either as it seems to be growing inside me.

2. I agree, as soon as I would know about God then it's no longer God.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
Bumping and asking for anyone who has a response. (ChristineES has not shown up here in some time. Hope everything is OK.)

I can't cut and paste the questions asked. There wasn't a time I didn't believe in God, but there was a time when I didn't know if there was a God. I was an agnostic until well into my teen years. The first time I ever even thought about God is when I was 5- some lady told me that Jesus lived in my heart- being a five-year-old, I pictured Jesus (the pictures I'd seen of Him, sitting inside a valentine heart in my chest. Starting when I was six or seven, I began to wonder. My mother told me there was no God and that Jesus was "just a good man", I heard all about reincarnation (because of the book Audrey Rose, it was a big topic at the time), My stepfather was a Buddhist and I heard a bit about Buddhism, most of my friends in school were either protestant or catholic (at least that is what they said) but they never talked about God.

As for God being beyond logic, that was a bad choice of words on my part. But at the same time, we really can't understand God. You have to imagine something greater and more awesome than the greatest thing in the universe. If we did understand anything about God, it would be only what we can think of.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Often, there are things in the universe we know are there only by noticing the effects they have on other things. Take, for instance, quarks. To my knowledge, no one has been able to see a quark (quarks are believed to be parts of atoms). No one has ever seen a black hole either, for that matter.

Also, to clarify - I am not going to scroll back up thru the posts to determine who said this to me, but someone implied that I am a literalist when it comes to the Creation story. This is not the case. I believe that God could well have used evolution in some manner to create the universe.

I believe someone else also asked at some point if anyone had ever had God directly intervene in their lives and produce any sort of miracle. This has happened to me and my family, I believe, on two occasions THAT I AM AWARE OF.

I don't want to get all bogged down in every detail but I'd be happy to answer any questions that arise about the details, if anyone's interested.

In the first scenario, my youngest daughter had birth trauma which resulted in a brain injury. She began having up to forty seizures a day. She had basically no sucking instinct and had to have her milk squeezed into her tiny mouth. She was gaining weight very slowly due to projectile vomiting after nearly every meal, and had severe developmental delays. She screamed at the top of her lungs for at least 6 hours a day and slept fitfully most of the rest of the day. Her team of doctors told me that we couldn't diagnose cerebral palsy before about the age of two with any certainty, but they were pretty sure that's what she had. At three months they started her on physical therapy for cerebral palsy. At four months she still could not hold her head up and weighed less than 14 pounds (she was nearly 8 pounds at birth). Her pediatrician told me that she would probably never walk on her own.

I was so mad at God about this. I prayed, screamed at God, shook my hand in his face, turned my back on him, and most of all, I grieved. I would have gladly given my life for hers. I was nearly frantic to try to make things better for my child. I was nearly consumed by the effort to better her life and try to facilitate her healing.

One day I was suddenly struck with this - God is a father. God watched His Son suffer. God loves us with a more perfect love than we can ever imagine. And God has plans for each of us that are more complex and beautiful than we can grasp. We can get weighed down by what we think of as impediments to perfection, but God can use every facet of our lives to His glory. In other words, we can't see the big picture from where we stand, but He can.

I realized that in all my prayers for the healing of my child, I was trying to impose what MY ideas for her were, rather than being willing to accept HIS will for her life, and mine. My ideas were better than God's ideas? I don't think so. I was not truly trusting in Him. I was expecting Him to be my vending machine.

I realized that I would have to trust Him with my child's life. I realized that the very crux of faith is trust - trust that God is omnipotent and in control of things, and that His plan for our lives may differ from ours. I had to trust Him and accept His will, whatever that was.

With that in mind, instead of praying up demands to God to heal my child, I began praying more of a vision than words. I simply let go and imagined that I was laying my beloved baby in God's lap. I could hear the words, "Suffer the little children to come unto Me" as I did this. That was it - that was my prayer.

Things rocked along for several more months, with little improvement for my daughter. The seizures continued, and she continued to struggle to eat. She was also hypersensitive to any sort of stimulation - even flipping on a light could trigger a seizure. It was heartbreaking and very, very frightening.

Her doctors scheduled an appt with her in Atlanta, GA, with a top pediatric neurologist. There was a two month waiting list for an appt with him. Meanwhile, I began relying on my church family more for emotional support. Soon the entire church was praying for this little girl.

I began noticing some improvement and one day I realized that she had gone an entire day without a seizure - then two days, then a week...and as the seizures subsided, she began to be able to keep food down, and then sleep better. One day I noticed that she was holding her head up, the next week, she was sitting by herself, and before I knew it, she was trying to scoot across the floor!!! I can't tell you what it meant for her to sleep through the night, and for me to see a smile break across her precious face!

Her physical therapists were very surprised, because they'd never seen such quick results from such little treatment. Soon it was time for the big appt in Atlanta with the neurologist. He was the top pediatric neurologist in the Southeast so we were very excited and nervous.

He did a complete exam and then reviewed all her charts. He called us into his office and as we sat there, he continued to flip through her records. As he did so in silence, he read and shook his head slowly. I was getting more and more nervous. Finally, he looked up at us and said this:

"I can't explain what I'm seeing. Your daughter definitely had a brain injury at birth. She's definitely been having petit mal seizures for months now. She was very much developmentally delayed and diagnosed with failure to thrive. According to her charts, she's not on any medication, and has only been in physical therapy for two months - is this true?" (It was.)

He then said, "The medical community did not heal your child. But your child is healed. She is one hundred percent normal at this point. Take her home and love her, and expect great things from her." He then slapped her file shut and stood up and escorted us to the door.

As we were walking out, he said, "Have you been using any homeopathic methods to treat her?" I said, "No. But our entire church has been praying for her. That's all I know." He laughed and said, "I've seen stranger things work. I believe in the power of prayer."

As we were getting into our car, suddenly I heard someone calling my name across the parking lot. I looked back and this doctor was running toward us. He literally had tears in his eyes as he grabbed my hand and arm and said this:

"I see so much tragedy in my line of work. I just had to come tell you how much it means to me to be able to give parents good news for a change. I'm serious - I can't tell you how much this has done for me. Thank you, thank you, thank you for coming here today." I didn't know what to say other than, "No, thank YOU!"

My daughter is now a staff sergeant in the US Air Force, and excels at PT - she always aces her physicals and has never had a health problem since.

I can't explain what happened, and neither could her doctors.

I have another example of direct intervention by God in my life as well, but we can start with this one for now.
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
I can't explain what happened, and neither could her doctors.
They were wrong. That is the only explanation that does not mean that God is playing favorites, considering the 148,000 people who haven't recovered. Personally, I think that recovering from something like cerebral palsy would cause more problems, at least temporarily, considering that it involves rewiring the entire motor cortex. That isn't something the rest of the brain is going to get used to quickly.

Soon the entire church was praying for this little girl.
Why? God knows what you want, and will execute His plan regardless, won't he?
 
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