The Argument for God(Or Against God) Is Never a Logical One.

[Kathryn]

Okay - that helps. "Blessings" can be a bit vague and hard to quanitify, but your life is certainly a measurable effect, and you attribute this effect to God.

This leads to a new question: why attribute the effect to God? What leads you to conclude that God created you and that you weren't created by something else (or that you weren't created at all, depending on which sense of "created" you're using).

What would lead someone to the conclusion that God did NOT create us and the world around us? Why on earth would the scenario of a random existance, and this fantastically complex world being some sort of accidental happening, be any more believable than the concept of a Creator? Both are theories and are unprovable positions.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What would lead someone to the conclusion that God did NOT create us and the world around us?

Depends on the god in question, but there are potentially many reasons. For instance, if the God you're talking about is a good god, then the problem of evil directly suggests that this god did not create the universe.

Any time that a particular conception of God (e.g. that God is good) creates a prediction about the universe (e.g. that the universe will have no more evil and suffering than strictly necessary), we can test that prediction against the actual universe and see if it's correct.

Also, we have quite a bit of knowledge about the development of religion and god-belief that shows how religious creation beliefs arise. If we have good evidence that they're a human product of innate psychology and cultural development (and I think we do), then we already have the explanation: people believe in God because our brains are predisposed to this sort of belief and we're generally brought up to believe certain things about certain gods. And if this is the actual cause of religious beliefs, then we can conclude that other potential explanations (e.g. the beliefs are actually true) aren't the cause. This doesn't completely exclude the possibility of God, but it does render such a god irrelevant as an explanation for the physical universe.

Why on earth would the scenario of a random existance, and this fantastically complex world being some sort of accidental happening, be any more believable than the concept of a Creator? Both are theories and are unprovable positions.

Well, every bit of physical evidence we have is consistent with the things we see being created by unguided processes. I agree that this doesn't necessarily meant that some god or gods isn't lurking out in the shadows somewhere, but it does imply that such a god, if he/she/it/they exist, is insignificant in terms of effect on the universe.

Also, since God doesn't actually provide any explanatory power but creates many new questions that demand answers themselves, I think that we're left in a situation where, in the absence of evidence one way or the other, a universe without God is always more plausible than a universe with God.

 

[jml03]

What would lead someone to the conclusion that God did NOT create us and the world around us? Why on earth would the scenario of a random existance, and this fantastically complex world being some sort of accidental happening, be any more believable than the concept of a Creator? Both are theories and are unprovable positions.

This is SO true. That one little speck created it all. I'm sorry, but I think that idea is crazy. And if we "evolved" from apes, how did we manage to become so unique. Is there an Asian ape? Perhaps a Native American? And our facial structures are SO different. How is that? How did we become so individual? Because, when I look at apes, they are all VERY similar. What about the hair? Apes, monkeys, and chimps all have body hair, regardless of their climate. Thus, why do we not have this lush full body hair? How did our hair change it's texture? If we evolved from them, why are they still in existence?

 

[Magic Man]

But I'm not choosing a mate. I'm choosing my Lord and Savior. Apples and oranges. My point is that we make choices and beliefs that are sometimes based feelings and instincts. It may not be logical to you, but I know God is real because I talk to Him daily. He answers my prayers. Just because you feel He is not real, does not make it so.

And this is the difference, as has already been pointed out. Whether or not you use feelings and instinct to pick your mate is irrelevant. You use logic and reason to determine that your possible mate is a real person. In the case of choosing God, you're skipping the logic and reason part that determines whether he's real in the first place, so that there's something there for your feelings and instincts to tell you to love.

 

[Magic Man]

But feelings and instincts come into play with EVERY decision we make.

No, they don't. For some people, that may be true, but for most it's not.

Just because I talk to God and He replies and hears my cries and answer MY prayers, and you haven't heard it, does not mean you are right.

It's not that I haven't heard it. It's that I don't think you've heard that either. I think you talk to God and you hear something that you attribute to God, but then many other people hear something that they attribute to completely different gods.

If I am blind and cannot see the sun, it doesn't mean it's not real.

That's true, but at least you'd be able to feel the effects of the sun in that case. Besides, this assumes I'm the one who's blind. I'm not. I was Catholic for 18 years. You're assuming there's something there to see, but I'm missing it. That's not the case. There's just nothing there to see.

 

[jml03]

And this is the difference, as has already been pointed out. Whether or not you use feelings and instinct to pick your mate is irrelevant. You use logic and reason to determine that your possible mate is a real person. In the case of choosing God, you're skipping the logic and reason part that determines whether he's real in the first place, so that there's something there for your feelings and instincts to tell you to love.

By whose sense of logic. If I am blind, do I say the sun does not exist because I cant see it? That would be logical. However, I can feel the suns rays - the heat on my body. Thus, it is still real. God is like that to me. JUST because you have not felt Him, does not make him any more illogical that the sun is to a blind person.

 

[jml03]

No, they don't. For some people, that may be true, but for most it's not.



It's not that I haven't heard it. It's that I don't think you've heard that either. I think you talk to God and you hear something that you attribute to God, but then many other people hear something that they attribute to completely different gods.



That's true, but at least you'd be able to feel the effects of the sun in that case. Besides, this assumes I'm the one who's blind. I'm not. I was Catholic for 18 years. You're assuming there's something there to see, but I'm missing it. That's not the case. There's just nothing there to see.

of course of course. You are going to find something and deny anything I post. It doesn't matter if you did all the ritual for 18 years, that's all you were doing was ritual, btw. You still didn't feel him. Just like the sun, I may not have seen Him in the flesh - but I feel him everyday. You just don't and I'm sorry for you.

 

[Magic Man]

God has answered many prayers for me. Healings, children, sobriety, peace, and just recently he answered my prayers for healing for my sister and my brother was set to ship out to Afghan for another 2 years. I prayed for God to intervene. He did. My brother went in and received new orders. He is nondeployable for the next 2 1/2 years. But, I guess you will come up with some logic for that.

Are we to assume you've never prayed for something that God didn't give you? Or is it that that happens sometimes, but you just chalk it up to "God has a plan"? My biggest question is why do you think God does what you ask of him? Don't you think he knows best, and that he's going to do whatever's best in any situation? Is it that you don't trust him to do what's best for you?

Save it. You're not changing my mind. Cast not your pearls before the swine.

That's a little harsh. We're talking about how to determine whether or not God is real. I didn't think it needed to get this heated. And I don't think anyone's trying to tell you not to believe in God. I'm certainly not.

 

[Magic Man]

Well on this one, I'm afraid you cannot afford to be wrong.

Neither can you. You just better hope you're right, and the real god isn't Birup, who is indifferent towards those who don't believe in any god, but really hates and sends to hell people who believe in a god other than him.

 

[jml03]

Are we to assume you've never prayed for something that God didn't give you? Or is it that that happens sometimes, but you just chalk it up to "God has a plan"? My biggest question is why do you think God does what you ask of him? Don't you think he knows best, and that he's going to do whatever's best in any situation? Is it that you don't trust him to do what's best for you?



That's a little harsh. We're talking about how to determine whether or not God is real. I didn't think it needed to get this heated. And I don't think anyone's trying to tell you not to believe in God. I'm certainly not.

It's funny that you say that now, You have mocked and picked at everything I have said. I have spent more time rebutting your accusations than making assumptions as to the lifestyle you may have. You have said that I must have no idea what I'm saying - well I say, I'm sorry you feel that way and I thank God I do not.

 

[jml03]

Neither can you. You just better hope you're right, and the real god isn't Birup, who is indifferent towards those who don't believe in any god, but really hates and sends to hell people who believe in a god other than him.

I don't think I have anything to worry about - it is the nonbelievers that I pray for.

 

[Magic Man]

This is SO true. That one little speck created it all. I'm sorry, but I think that idea is crazy.

Right. That's crazy, but some extremely complex being like God just existing forever isn't.

And if we "evolved" from apes, how did we manage to become so unique. Is there an Asian ape? Perhaps a Native American? And our facial structures are SO different. How is that? How did we become so individual? Because, when I look at apes, they are all VERY similar. What about the hair? Apes, monkeys, and chimps all have body hair, regardless of their climate. Thus, why do we not have this lush full body hair? How did our hair change it's texture? If we evolved from them, why are they still in existence?

Are you saying you don't accept evolution?

OK, to answer these questions:

Non-human apes' facial structures are as different from each other as ours are. I'm sure to you, all other apes look very similar, but it's like the joke about Asian people, and how they all look the same to white people. It's because you're not used to the kinds of differences that are there.

We don't have the same amount of body hair that other apes do because we evolved that way. It was beneficial for our ancestors to have less hair. They're still in existence because we split off from them many thousands of years ago. Some of them started to change in different ways, ways that led to us, while others changed in other ways, ways that led to modern-day non-human apes.

I think what you need to do is read a bit about evolution before coming to conclusions about it. The best practice is usually to get the real information on a topic, and then come to a conclusion.

 

[Magic Man]

By whose sense of logic.

No one's. It's by logic.

If I am blind, do I say the sun does not exist because I cant see it? That would be logical. However, I can feel the suns rays - the heat on my body. Thus, it is still real.

Your second part answers your first. No, it would not be logical to say the sun doesn't exist because you're blind. You'd still be able to feel its effects. It's not logical to say wind doesn't exist because we can't see it.

God is like that to me. JUST because you have not felt Him, does not make him any more illogical that the sun is to a blind person.

The sun being real is not illogical to a blind person. The problem is whether or not you've felt him or just thought you felt him. I can guarantee I've felt the same things you have. I just attribute them to nature and psychology, while you attribute them to God.

of course of course. You are going to find something and deny anything I post. It doesn't matter if you did all the ritual for 18 years, that's all you were doing was ritual, btw. You still didn't feel him. Just like the sun, I may not have seen Him in the flesh - but I feel him everyday. You just don't and I'm sorry for you.

Yes, of course. The "No True Scotsman" fallacy. You're pulling out all the stops now, huh? Of course it's because I wasn't a "good Christian". I was just "going through the motions". Thanks for telling me what I used to do and feel, but I think I'm a better judge of that. I felt the same things you've felt, and at the time I thought it was God. I have since realized that it wasn't God at all.

 

[Magic Man]

It's funny that you say that now, You have mocked and picked at everything I have said.

I had the feeling this was the case. This comes up quite often. It seems that you are one who thinks that any time someone questions your belief or tries to debate anything concerning your God, it's "mocking" or "picking at". I have not mocked anything of yours, and I'm sorry you choose to see it that way. But even if I had, there's no way 9/10s Penguin did, because while I might be guilty of that from time to time, that is just not his style.

I have spent more time rebutting your accusations than making assumptions as to the lifestyle you may have.

The problem is you haven't let me rebuttals to you sink in.

You have said that I must have no idea what I'm saying

Where did I say something that could be taken as that?

I don't think I have anything to worry about - it is the nonbelievers that I pray for.

Yes, of course, you don't think you have anything to worry about. My point is that I'm as likely as you to not go to hell. You say I can't afford to be wrong about this, but then neither can you. The truth is in all of the possible scenarios involving a heaven and hell, you're as likely to end up in hell as I am, even though you believe in your god and I don't.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This is SO true. That one little speck created it all. I'm sorry, but I think that idea is crazy. And if we "evolved" from apes, how did we manage to become so unique. Is there an Asian ape? Perhaps a Native American? And our facial structures are SO different. How is that? How did we become so individual?

Homo sapiens came out of Africa.

I personally don't see how the diversity of the human species is a problem, but if it is a problem, then saying that the entire species emerged from two original individuals about 6,000 years ago would only make things worse.

Because, when I look at apes, they are all VERY similar.

Yes, because you're a human. If you were a lemur, you'd probably be very good at distinguishing between other lemurs and not notice much difference between humans and gorillas.

What about the hair? Apes, monkeys, and chimps all have body hair, regardless of their climate. Thus, why do we not have this lush full body hair?

I take it you haven't heard of Robin Williams.

How did our hair change it's texture?

Many small changes add up to large change. I don't see how this is an issue.

If we evolved from them, why are they still in existence?

If the United States of America came out of the United Kingdom, why is there still a United Kingdom?

 

[McBell]

What would lead someone to the conclusion that God did NOT create us and the world around us?

I don't know...
Perhaps the complete lack of empirical evidence for the very existence of God?

Why on earth would the scenario of a random existance, and this fantastically complex world being some sort of accidental happening, be any more believable than the concept of a Creator?

Ah, so now we have the answer as to how belief in god came about.

Both are theories and are unprovable positions.

Now this is just at best wishful thinking or at worst a bold faced lie.
Creation is not a theory in any scientific sense of the word.
And your attempt to equate the creation story to an actual scientific theory is most deceitful.

 

[McBell]

This is SO true. That one little speck created it all. I'm sorry, but I think that idea is crazy. And if we "evolved" from apes, how did we manage to become so unique. Is there an Asian ape? Perhaps a Native American? And our facial structures are SO different. How is that? How did we become so individual? Because, when I look at apes, they are all VERY similar. What about the hair? Apes, monkeys, and chimps all have body hair, regardless of their climate. Thus, why do we not have this lush full body hair? How did our hair change it's texture? If we evolved from them, why are they still in existence?

Yes, because god merely "poofing" it all into existence is so much more believable.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I don't think I have anything to worry about - it is the nonbelievers that I pray for.

Nonbelievers in general, or all nonbelievers in your version of god?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

What would lead someone to the conclusion that God did NOT create us and the world around us? Why on earth would the scenario of a random existance, and this fantastically complex world being some sort of accidental happening, be any more believable than the concept of a Creator? Both are theories and are unprovable positions.

C'mon, I know you have a better grasp on logic than this sad display. There are countless unprovable theories about the nature of reality. Why decide on choosing one arbitrarily, since they are all equally unprovable, thus equally probable?

This doesn't mean one should reach the conclusion that something that could potentially be defined as someone's version of "god," didn't create everything, but as there's no more evidence for this, than say, our universe is a simulation, it seems rather random to reach one conclusion over the other.

 

[jml03]

Right. That's crazy, but some extremely complex being like God just existing forever isn't.



Are you saying you don't accept evolution?

OK, to answer these questions:

Non-human apes' facial structures are as different from each other as ours are. I'm sure to you, all other apes look very similar, but it's like the joke about Asian people, and how they all look the same to white people. It's because you're not used to the kinds of differences that are there.

We don't have the same amount of body hair that other apes do because we evolved that way. It was beneficial for our ancestors to have less hair. They're still in existence because we split off from them many thousands of years ago. Some of them started to change in different ways, ways that led to us, while others changed in other ways, ways that led to modern-day non-human apes.

I think what you need to do is read a bit about evolution before coming to conclusions about it. The best practice is usually to get the real information on a topic, and then come to a conclusion.

But yet, you seem to know SO MUCH, why not just answer the questions I've set before you. Then re-read them and see how logical they sound. Because to me, they are ridiculous.