Terrorist Attack in Oslo, Norway

[Revoltingest]

So here's the big issue I see...
...to what extent do we monitor & restrict individuals at risk for such violent outbursts?
We must weigh the liberty of the mentally ill against the liberty of their potential victims.

 

[Valjean]

The problem is, the majority of the population is susceptible to morally outrageous behavior, given the right circumstances.
Perhaps it's comforting to blame tragedies like Norway's to evil or madness, but I'd hold judgement till the psych evaluation's in.

 

[lunakilo]

I just found these pictures of the 150.000 people in the streets of Oslo and thought I would share them: Sørgende pynter Oslos gader med roser - Politiken.dk

 

[Revoltingest]

The problem is, the majority of the population is susceptible to morally outrageous behavior, given the right circumstances.
Perhaps it's comforting to blame tragedies like Norway's to evil or madness, but I'd hold judgement till the psych evaluation's in.

When the majority goes nuts (eg, Nazi Germany), that's a different phenomenon.
Identifying those at excessive risk of violent behavior could be identified & dealt with.
Of course, this is problematic for those who aspire to a free society, but a balance is reasonable.
(I'm not saying I'm entirely comfortable with government having such power either.)

 

[jarofthoughts]

So here's the big issue I see...
...to what extent do we monitor & restrict individuals at risk for such violent outbursts?
We must weigh the liberty of the mentally ill against the liberty of their potential victims.

There is also the liberty of the general public to consider...

The thing is that, as has been strongly signalled by both our politicians as well as the people of Norway, we are not willing to close our society up and turn it into a police state for the sake of what would ultimately be a fake sense of security.
No amount of surveilance can make you completely secure against lone psychopaths like this, and the cost would be way too high even if it did.

We, and we have this in common with our Scandinavian brothers and sisters, find that it is better to have an open society in which people can live freely, express their opinions freely, and do so without worrying that anyone is looking over their shoulders to see if they need to be locked up.

 

[atanu]

When the majority goes nuts (eg, Nazi Germany), that's a different phenomenon.

What about war hysteria? I agree with Seyorni that given certain circumstances irrational pscyche can manifest in mass scale very fast -- although for an individual such cases may happen once in a life time or may not happen at all. But throughout the world this is happening all the time at some place or other.
...............

It was interesting to read that Mr. Anders considered Hindus as allies. One can come across, in debate forums, such persons who seem to passionately hold pro Nazi view of Aryan vs. Semitic. They often debate ferociously, pointing that Hinduism actually taught violent actions against wrongs done by 'others'. They often cite Hindu scriptures. Such individuals/schools are in Europe and in USA. Some such group leaders have systematically and ferociously maligned Hindu teachers, who teach that goodness was the core of all religions, as cowards, and labelling them as Neo Vedantists or Neo Advaitins . A section of Hindu poulation, out of their frustration at continued terrorist attacks in India, have taken these foreign teachers as hopes and guides of Hinduism.

 

[Starsoul]

So here's the big issue I see...
...to what extent do we monitor & restrict individuals at risk for such violent outbursts?
We must weigh the liberty of the mentally ill against the liberty of their potential victims.

funny how such a brutal terrorizing person is being referred to as an individual and how everyone's refrained from using the word terrorist for him. respect?

 

[Revoltingest]

funny how such a brutal terrorizing person is being referred to as an individual and how everyone's refrained from using the word terrorist for him. respect?

I'd say he's a terrorist.....that seems obvious because that was his intent.
But the thread meandered in the direction of blaming other people, so that needed addressing.

What about war hysteria? I agree with Seyorni that given certain circumstances irrational pscyche can manifest in mass scale very fast....

No argument with that. However, that doesn't mean we shouldn't watch for individuals with great potential to become murderous.

 

[Starsoul]

Yeah but would anyone care to explain why non-muslims at the most, love calling bin laden without any 'Mr'. preifix, and the word Muslim is added to his terrorism, while none of the muslims yet so far have had the same courtesy of calling this guy as a christian terrorist?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

funny how such a brutal terrorizing person is being referred to as an individual and how everyone's refrained from using the word terrorist for him. respect?

From today's BBC:

Mr Breivik is facing terrorism charges and police are considering also charging him with crimes against humanity, which carry a possible 30-year sentence, a prosecutor has said.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yeah but would anyone care to explain why non-muslims at the most, love calling bin laden without any 'Mr'. preifix, and the word Muslim is added to his terrorism, while none of the muslims yet so far have had the same courtesy of calling this guy as a christian terrorist?

The prefix "Mr" doesn't work for us when people are from a country where naming conventions & honorifics are so different. Even Chairman Mao would never be "Mr Mao".
Would it be "Mr Laden" or "Mr bin Laden"? Both look weird, so he's just "bin Laden".
Even that lower case "b" makes his name strange to us.
Another difference:
Bin Laden was an outsider, & part of a violent culture bent on destruction, rather than a deranged individual.
Breivik was one of their own, & while a terrorist, his rantings make him look nuts. This suggests different preventive measures.

 

[jarofthoughts]

The police has clearly stated that they view him as a right-wing Christian extremist, so there is that.
And seeing as he is being charged with terrorism I don't think that point is terribly debatable.
He is, in the eyes of the police, a right-wing Christian terrorist and extremist.

He is probably also, by any useful measure, crazy.

 

[Flankerl]

I love the reaction of the norwegians. Its just beautiful.

 

[jarofthoughts]

I love the reaction of the norwegians. Its just beautiful.

I must admit that I am somewhat proud of how both our politicians and the general public has handled this terrible situation.
No calls for more surveilance.
No screams of vengeance.
No attempts to score political points.
Instead you have 250.000 people gathering in the streets carrying roses and sharing their sorrow, all the while our politicians promising to keep society open and to preserve freedom.
There is even a Facebook support group for the terrorist's mother, who must be suffering immensely, a group that now has thousands of members.

It is important to show this madman, and the world, that our way works.
Thus, we have given him a lawyer. A good one.
He will get a trial. A fair one.
He will not have to fear execution, or, as he for some reason expected, torture.

Because we are not him.

And we never will be.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

And if the perpretator was Muslim?

... hopefully it would have be no different.​

 

[jarofthoughts]

And if the perpretator was Muslim?

... hopefully it would have be no different.​

I can't know that for sure, at least with respect to the general public.
It would also depend on the circumstances, whether this was some member of an organisation or a forreign power, or if he/she acted alone.
If this was the work of some organisation or forreign power, naturally we would have to respond to that in some way.
While the terrorist had contact with radical groups in various parts of Europe, as far as we know he did not act on behalf of any of them.

But I -am- sure that the response from our politicians and the judicial system would have been exactly the same if it was a lone muslim carrying out such acts, and I -hope- that the response from the public would be similar.
But since we can't run that simulation we can't know for sure.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

funny how such a brutal terrorizing person is being referred to as an individual and how everyone's refrained from using the word terrorist for him. respect?

First: are you suggesting the nineteen 9/11 hijackers should have been called an "individual"? Second: who exactly has refrained from calling him a terrorist? Of course he is a terrorist.

 

[lunakilo]

And if the perpretator was Muslim?

... hopefully it would have be no different.​

I can't know that for sure, at least with respect to the general public.
It would also depend on the circumstances, whether this was some member of an organisation or a forreign power, or if he/she acted alone.
If this was the work of some organisation or forreign power, naturally we would have to respond to that in some way.
While the terrorist had contact with radical groups in various parts of Europe, as far as we know he did not act on behalf of any of them.

But I -am- sure that the response from our politicians and the judicial system would have been exactly the same if it was a lone muslim carrying out such acts, and I -hope- that the response from the public would be similar.
But since we can't run that simulation we can't know for sure.

I agree with jarofthoughts that the response from judicial system would have been exactly the same if it was a lone muslim carrying out such acts, and the response from most of the mainstream politicians would probably also have been the same, but I am quite sure that those right wing xenophobes (the progress party I think they call themselves in Norway) would have jumped at the chance to use such an attack as proof that muslims are evil.

I also don't think the reaction from the public would have been as beautiful and united.
But before anyone starts yelling discrimination or racism I want to add that the situation would be different if it had been a lone crazy muslim who had carried out the attack. Breivik is (on the surface) an average Norwegian, and you can't blame foreign influences for what he has done. A lone crazy muslim would not be and average Norwegian even on the surface, the simple fact that he was muslim would mean that he was different from most Norwegians, and had been influenced by foreign ideas since Islam is not native to Norway.

I have heard many people state that thay are relieved that the attack has so clearly been carried out by an 'insider' since this means there is no one to take revenge on.

 

[jarofthoughts]

I have heard many people state that thay are relieved that the attack has so clearly been carried out by an 'insider' since this means there is no one to take revenge on.

We actually discussed that the very moment it became clear that the attack had been done by an ethnic Norwegian, that in the midst of all this tragedy, that was a small blessing as it wouldn't lead to a polarization of society.
And indeed, if not immediately after, then at least after a while, it is not unlikely that the Progress Party would have used it for all it was worth.
As soon as it was confirmed the police was very quick to clearly point out that the perpetrator was an ethnic Norwegian, probably to curb any rash reactions that might have occured. Again, I -hope- that such reactions would not have taken place, but I am far from sure of it.

 

[Sahar]

I don't understand how any human could act this way...

Thank you jarofthoughts for the heads up and the thoughts.