Terrorist Attack in Oslo, Norway

[lunakilo]

Most conservatives I know, as wacky as their views are, wouldn't massacre children.

How about this guy?
Controversial proposal from new party - dr.dk/Nyheder/Andre_sprog/English
New nationalist party in Denmark - dr.dk/Nyheder/Andre_sprog/English

The scary thing is that it is not a joke...

 

[Father Heathen]

How about this guy?
Controversial proposal from new party - dr.dk/Nyheder/Andre_sprog/English
New nationalist party in Denmark - dr.dk/Nyheder/Andre_sprog/English

The scary thing is that it is not a joke...

Not sure what this kid has to do with what I said?

 

[lunakilo]

Not sure what this kid has to do with what I said?

No I think I was trying to respond to the same thing you responded to from Crisrti. Sorry.

 

[Chisti]

But what do you think "delusion" means? If this man is not deluded, then who is? Everyone is more or less deluded about something. The best of us strive to think critically--to question and challenge our beliefs, even core beliefs. Breivik strikes me as a person who is totally incapable of challenging his own beliefs. Strong beliefs are not delusions unless there is an abundance of counterevidence. They become delusions when no amount of counterevidence can cause us to question them.

You're missing the point. Right-wing ideology is based upon an 'us vs them' attitude and is therefore inherently violent. Brevik is just a product of such a violent ideology, so to call him crazy is nothing but a refusal to see right-wing ideology for what it really is.

 

[Revoltingest]

You're missing the point. Right-wing ideology is based upon an 'us vs them' attitude and is therefore inherently violent.

That's as absurd as saying left-wing ideology is inherently violent because it's also us-vs-them.
Hmmm.....maybe you're on to something after all.

 

[Copernicus]

You're missing the point. Right-wing ideology is based upon an 'us vs them' attitude and is therefore inherently violent. Brevik is just a product of such a violent ideology, so to call him crazy is nothing but a refusal to see right-wing ideology for what it really is.

I agree with Revoltingest on this one. Just about any ideology can be seen as 'us vs them', and there have been some pretty violent left-wing lunatics. There are degrees of violent behavior, and the kind of violence that Breivik engaged in was off the scales. Most conservatives, even the most hateful ones, would not bomb civilians or kill children in the cold-blooded way this psychopath did. I think that the lunacy was inspired by extremist right wing literature, but Breivik's kind of violence was very extreme. I do agree with you that the right wing has been guilty of ramping up violent rhetoric to the point where psychopaths like Breivik feel encouraged to commit extreme acts. We should not pretend that Breivik had no connection at all with the level of violent rhetoric out there. The guy who carries an unloaded assault rifle to a political rally may not be the one to actually commit murder, but he sends the message of violence to others, some of whom may just be crazy enough to act.

 

[Revoltingest]

I agree with Revoltingest on this one.

Don't make it a habit. You'll start coveting shovels.

The guy who carries an unloaded assault rifle to a political rally may not be the one to actually commit murder, but he sends the message of violence to others, some of whom may just be crazy enough to act.

What makes you think his Ruger Mini 14 was select fire? I hadn't read that anywhere.

 

[jarofthoughts]

What makes you think his Ruger Mini 14 was select fire? I hadn't read that anywhere.

The Norwegian terrorist had a semi-automatic Ruger Mini 14, not an assault rifle.

 

[Copernicus]

The Norwegian terrorist had a semi-automatic Ruger Mini 14, not an assault rifle.

I think that it is a semantic argument to claim that the Ruger Mini 14 is not an assault rifle. It is designed for police and military use. These arguments depend on how one defines "assault rifle", and some would define it to include this Ruger.

However, please note that I did not claim Breivik had an "assault rifle". I was referring to political rallies in the US, where, during the last election cycle, right wing nutters actually showed up with such rifles to make the symbolic point that they considered armed rebellion against the government an option if they did not get their way at the ballot box. It is extremism of that sort that seems to have caught Breivik's attention and admiration.

 

[jarofthoughts]

I think that it is a semantic argument to claim that the Ruger Mini 14 is not an assault rifle. It is designed for police and military use. These arguments depend on how one defines "assault rifle", and some would define it to include this Ruger.

That may be so, but the Ruger in question is a legal weapon for hunting in Norway. A fully automatic weapon would not be.

However, please note that I did not claim Breivik had an "assault rifle". I was referring to political rallies in the US, where, during the last election cycle, right wing nutters actually showed up with such rifles to make the symbolic point that they considered armed rebellion against the government an option if they did not get their way at the ballot box. It is extremism of that sort that seems to have caught Breivik's attention and admiration.

Ah. Sorry. Misunderstood you then.
And you are probably right.

 

[Chisti]

That's as absurd as saying left-wing ideology is inherently violent because it's also us-vs-them.
Hmmm.....maybe you're on to something after all.

Left is about peace, equality, and justice. I do not know why you say it's inherently violent.

 

[Revoltingest]

Left is about peace, equality, and justice. I do not know why you say it's inherently violent.

For exactly the same reason you say the right is, ie, us-vs-them.

Note: I also see that the right likes peace, equality, justice & the American way just as much as the left.
But they differ on some of the specifics & interpretations.
I'd be happier if they all liked peace more though.

 

[Copernicus]

That may be so, but the Ruger in question is a legal weapon for hunting in Norway. A fully automatic weapon would not be.

Right. People often confuse semi-automatic weapons, which are very common, with fully automatic weapons, which are typically illegal. However, I have read that it is possible to purchase a kit to convert at least some of these semi-automatic weapons into automatic weapons. I do not know whether Breivik had modified his weapon in any way. The initial news reports about it were confused, but it looks like he just brought a lot of clips (or "magazines", as gun fetishists like to insist) to the island. Was he using the 5-round or 20-round magazine? A number of our patriotic American gun owners insist that one needs at least a 20-round magazine in order to improve their hunting experiences.

 

[Revoltingest]

A number of our patriotic American gun owners insist that one needs at least a 20-round magazine in order to improve their hunting experiences.

Naw....20 round mags aren't for hunting. They serve 3 purposes:
1) Cool.
2) Get'm while they're legal.
3) Self defense when America descends into chaos.

 

[jarofthoughts]

I do not know whether Breivik had modified his weapon in any way.

I believe he had used some kits but not to make the weapon fully automatic.

Was he using the 5-round or 20-round magazine?

He was using either 20 or 30 round magazines for his Ruger.

A number of our patriotic American gun owners insist that one needs at least a 20-round magazine in order to improve their hunting experiences.

Those guys would not pass the test to receive their hunter's license in Norway.

 

[Revoltingest]

Those guys would not pass the test to receive their hunter's license in Norway.

I wouldn't put much stock in comments about hunters by gun rights antagonists.
Things get rather hyperbolic.

One fella I know hunts with a Springfield M1A with the standard 20 round mag.
Why such a rifle when he needs only 1 shot?
It's very very accurate (sub 1 MOA) & he became enamored of it's military version (M14) in Marine basic training.

 

[jarofthoughts]

I wouldn't put much stock in comments about hunters by gun rights antagonists.
Things get rather hyperbolic.

One fella I know hunts with a Springfield M1A with the standard 20 round mag.
Why such a rifle when he needs only 1 shot?
It's very very accurate (sub 1 MOA) & he became enamored of it's military version (M14) in Marine basic training.

Oh, I wasn't berating their choice of weapon.
It was more the fact that someone who thinks they need 20 shots available to down a deer probably shouldn't be allowed to go hunting.

 

[Revoltingest]

Oh, I wasn't berating their choice of weapon.
It was more the fact that someone who thinks they need 20 shots available to down a deer probably shouldn't be allowed to go hunting.

I've never known a hunter who didn't intend to down an animal with one shot.
I suppose such bozos exist, but they're likely a rare breed.

 

[lunakilo]

I suppose such bozos exist, but they're likely a rare breed.

As are people who gun down children at a summer camp.

 

[atanu]

Does any one feel repulsed at the idea of hunting?