Superstition vs. Faith

[Norman Beall]

Sorry, what? Godly == animate? It doesn't say that.
Dictionaries do contain knowledge. Definitions are knowledge of words, based on how they're used. If it has contradictions and overlaps that's because people have been known to use the words in those meanings. Which means they can be used in that sense by anybody.

I know it doesn't say it heh , websters is broken when it comes to discernment of the scriptures. wrong altogether.

I am not a book human, which means i do not check a book and attempt to make reality comply. i check reality for myself and discern if a book complies or not.

Popular definitions are found in the dictionary. One must use a proper definition to understand any given text. Not all proper definitions for all texts have come to be popular and written in the dictionary.

Find one reference that says what it means to mix fabrics is to argue a kettle logic fallacy. Just one.

 

[SigurdReginson]

I would like to give an examples. Numbers.
Numbers are instruments invented by man to quantify matter. They actually do not exist, they are not tangible ..but some people are obsessed with them and give them some spiritual meaning.

I guess that is superstition.
Faith is quite the opposite. It is believing in a power than can give joy, happiness, peace.

Hmmm... What if numbers give people hope, happiness, and peace? After all, equations have solved a lot of man's problems, and has even made it possible to reach the stars. Is it that they were given spiritual significance itself? What gives something more or less value if it isn't tangible anyway?

 

[firedragon]

I am not a book human, which means i do not check a book and attempt to make reality comply. i check reality for myself and discern if a book complies or not.

Which book? Whats the analysis? Whats the reality? Whats the methodology used?

 

[Estro Felino]

Hmmm... What if numbers give people hope, happiness, and peace? After all, equations have solved a lot of man's problems, and has even made it possible to reach the stars. Is it that they were given spiritual significance itself? What gives something more or less value if it isn't tangible anyway?

I meant when people believe 13 is a unlucky number and stuff like that....

 

[Norman Beall]

Which book? Whats the analysis? Whats the reality? Whats the methodology used?

The reality is the reality that both you and i share. The reality that no matter how many people ride us, neither of us will never be a city bus. The reality that you know things i do not know, as well as i know things you do not know. the reality where every human knows a thing no other knows nor can know, which is called special knowledge, from which it follows every human is specail.

 

[darkskies]

I know it doesn't say it heh , websters is broken when it comes to discernment of the scriptures. wrong altogether.

I am not a book human, which means i do not check a book and attempt to make reality comply. i check reality for myself and discern if a book complies or not.

Popular definitions are found in the dictionary. One must use a proper definition to understand any given text. Not all proper definitions for all texts have come to be popular and written in the dictionary.

Find one reference that says what it means to mix fabrics is to argue a kettle logic fallacy. Just one.

I agree that it cannot be used for scripture. Scripture can be considered as art (among other things). Artistic literature doesn't always consult dictionaries.

You can do what you want to. Dictionaries can be wrong occasionally, which is when we amend them. Words are our own creation. But we try to stick to original meanings as they've been without much deviation as it ensures uniformity and reduces confusion to the least.

What are you calling "proper" here?

Why? How does this matter?

 

[firedragon]

The reality is the reality that both you and i share. The reality that no matter how many people ride us, neither of us will never be a city bus. The reality that you know things i do not know, as well as i know things you do not know. the reality where every human knows a thing no other knows nor can know, which is called special knowledge, from which it follows every human is specail.

I asked "Which book? Whats the analysis? Whats the reality? Whats the methodology used?"

But of course no direct answer could be given....

 

[Clara Tea]

In Revelation, God commanded that we don't attack Iraq.

The faithful would have listened to Germany, France, and England, when they said that the US has no proof of terrorism. The faithful would have listened to the pope, in his strongly worded See to the United States admonishing war with Iraq (fearing that Revelation was right that Satanic demons would attack Iraq, and triggering the end times).

The faithful follow God. God said "thou shalt not kill," and "turn the other cheek."

The faithless say that we're sitting ducks if we don't go after the al Qaeda, and it makes more sense to fight them on their soil, rather than wait for them to attack us on our soil.

The faithless use logic (albeit, flawed logic) to guide them. The faithful listen only to God, and if God tells them not to attack Iraq, then the all knowing God (who also knows the future) must be right. It must be that God will get terrorists in his own way, and we shouldn't defy God and attack on our own.

The faithful see God's miracles. The faithless turn a blind eye (there is no one more blind that he who will not see). Revelation is a miracle prediction, and most Christians prefer to tell lies about it. Revelation predicted war in Iraq, but most Christians tell lies (it's an imaginary Babylon...lie), (Babylon is a state of mind....lie).

Scientists proved that mankind's influence on Global Warming is accelerating it. Some have faith that scientists are wrong (but they are wrong, and their leaders lie). Others have faith in God, and know that they must preserve God's environment.

The faithful are sometimes misguided. They don't follow the teachings of God, but they follow the teachings of mankind. Greedy oil billionaires want to continue making smog, continue drilling leaking wells off the coast, continue crashing tankers and making oil spills, and continue fracking next to populated areas. One cannot serve both money and God. Choose....mammon or faith in God.

The faithful were given miracles to make them believe. It is a miracle that God predicted war in Iraq. Yet, most Christians don't realize that Revelation is a modern miracle.

The superstitious have no miracles to guide them--perhaps that is the key difference.

 

[SigurdReginson]

I meant when people believe 13 is a unlucky number and stuff like that....

Oh! Yah.

At that point, the number is little more than a charm. Putting faith in an object or a concept in the hope that it has real world power... That's interesting.

I believe my keys will help protect me because they lock my house and prevent people from opening my door. Wether or not that is true, I can't be sure, because I haven't had anyone try to break in yet (that I'm aware of). Until then, there is a certain amount of belief involved... Even if the way it works is testable and it's design has a long history of efficacy.

But, what about things that can't or haven't been tested enough; at least, not to a satisfactory degree. What if things are tested using methods we don't understand or respect? I mean, we have the scientific method, but it isn't the only method, and there are different standards for the scientific method, too. After all, even creationists have their own "peer review" journal.

There definitely is such a thing as junk science. Is there such a thing as junk faith? Is that what superstition is? If that's so, what is the gold standard faith must achieve before it can ring true? Why is this accepted standard the gold standard? Does it produce repeatable, varifiable results that can be seen in the real world?

 

[SigurdReginson]

In Revelation, God commanded that we don't attack Iraq.

The faithful would have listened to Germany, France, and England, when they said that the US has no proof of terrorism. The faithful would have listened to the pope, in his strongly worded See to the United States admonishing war with Iraq (fearing that Revelation was right that Satanic demons would attack Iraq, and triggering the end times).

The faithful follow God. God said "thou shalt not kill," and "turn the other cheek."

The faithless say that we're sitting ducks if we don't go after the al Qaeda, and it makes more sense to fight them on their soil, rather than wait for them to attack us on our soil.

The faithless use logic (albeit, flawed logic) to guide them. The faithful listen only to God, and if God tells them not to attack Iraq, then the all knowing God (who also knows the future) must be right. It must be that God will get terrorists in his own way, and we shouldn't defy God and attack on our own.

The faithful see God's miracles. The faithless turn a blind eye (there is no one more blind that he who will not see). Revelation is a miracle prediction, and most Christians prefer to tell lies about it. Revelation predicted war in Iraq, but most Christians tell lies (it's an imaginary Babylon...lie), (Babylon is a state of mind....lie).

Scientists proved that mankind's influence on Global Warming is accelerating it. Some have faith that scientists are wrong (but they are wrong, and their leaders lie). Others have faith in God, and know that they must preserve God's environment.

The faithful are sometimes misguided. They don't follow the teachings of God, but they follow the teachings of mankind. Greedy oil billionaires want to continue making smog, continue drilling leaking wells off the coast, continue crashing tankers and making oil spills, and continue fracking next to populated areas. One cannot serve both money and God. Choose....mammon or faith in God.

The faithful were given miracles to make them believe. It is a miracle that God predicted war in Iraq. Yet, most Christians don't realize that Revelation is a modern miracle.

The superstitious have no miracles to guide them--perhaps that is the key difference.

Hmm... Where in Revelation did god command that the United States of America shouldn't attack Iraq?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

You know, I was going to write a different thread, but the more I wrote, the more I noticed that I was conflating superstion and faith. What, exactly, is the difference though?
If I ask god to help me, how is that different than asking my house elf to help me? Does it matter if I think angels are watching over my loved ones vs. if my ancestors watch over them? If I cast out demons from a suspected witch, how is it different if I do it in the name of jesus than if I do it using folk magic?
If I were a Christian still, I would say that the main defining factor is that belief in the god of the bible would be an example of faith, while everything else that's a supernatural belief is based on things outside of that and is of the world, and therefore superstitious. Do you feel the same? Are other religions practicing faith or superstition? Is the main factor in the veneration of gods? If so, would the belief in gods be faith, while the belief in magic be superstitious? What if your religion allowed for the existance of magic? Even the bible talks of magic, so I don't know... The whole thing is very confusing for me.
They all seem to be rooted in the supernatural, so where is this split between the two, precisely? Can they, and do both faith and superstition coexist?
I know this topic has been done before in the past... but the answers are still vague. I feel like it's hard to have a conversation about things related to the topic if the topic isn't settled first. I guess I'm just looking for something more concrete and definite. Maybe we can all reach some kind of concensus, finally.

Asking your house elf help with what?
Faith to me means: Asking according to God's will, His purpose.
God's will can be found through the research or study of Scripture besides prayer according to God's will, and good association.
For one, Christians would ask for help to carry out the instructions as Jesus taught to do - Matthew 6:33-34; John 13:34-35.
Jesus did Not instruct that we today should cast out demons. That was happening only when Jesus and the apostles were around.
Our 'spiritual work' is to tell others about God's Kingdom (Daniel 2:44) as Jesus did and instructed to do - Luke 4:43; Matthew 24:14.
At death we are in God's safe hands, so there is No biblical reason for anyone else to watch over us.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Sound reason insulates one equally from belief in gods and belief in bad luck black cats.



Some say "Satan is a symbol for the lower, selfish nature of man or ego". Some say "there is a mythical being which tempts us". Who are you to decide which is right?
Those who say Satan is a fallen angel who would lead people to evil, do not think their "knowledge" is superstition at all.



Again, who are you to make such pronouncements? What makes you believe you have special insight?




Religion and superstition cannot exist in the face of reason and science.

I’m just an ordinary person like anyone else who has been endowed with a mind to think and reason with that’s all. And to me angels are merely saintly people and Satan is not an existence just like darkness does not exist, only light.

No special insight is required to understand these things, we just need to use our minds and intellects.

 

[ecco]

No special insight is required to understand these things, we just need to use our minds and intellects.

You used your mind and intellect to make sense of Baháʼu'lláh's rambling writings? I congratulate you.

 

[ecco]

It is a miracle that God predicted war in Iraq....
In Revelation, God commanded that we don't attack Iraq.

Care to show chapter and verse for that amazing prediction.

 

[Norman Beall]

I agree that it cannot be used for scripture. Scripture can be considered as art (among other things). Artistic literature doesn't always consult dictionaries.

You can do what you want to. Dictionaries can be wrong occasionally, which is when we amend them. Words are our own creation. But we try to stick to original meanings as they've been without much deviation as it ensures uniformity and reduces confusion to the least.

What are you calling "proper" here?

Why? How does this matter?

Proper is to have a proper understanding of what it means to be wise. You are not sticking to the original meanings as you believe you are. John 18, smiting off an ear means an ad hominem. Is that what you get out of the story of christ, peter, and malchus? that peter is carrying out an ad hominem against malchus? or do you get something else from the story?

the original meaning of eating shellfish is to say a fallacy of composition. the original meaning of mixing fabrics means a kettle logic fallacy. the original meaning of two in the same bed means argumentum ad populum. the original meaning of spiritual drunkard means institutionally indoctrinated. the original meaning of blasphemy means strawman.

find one other than me that holds true to the original meaning of all these things.

 

[Norman Beall]

Asking your house elf help with what?
Faith to me means: Asking according to God's will, His purpose.
God's will can be found through the research or study of Scripture besides prayer according to God's will, and good association.
For one, Christians would ask for help to carry out the instructions as Jesus taught to do - Matthew 6:33-34; John 13:34-35.
Jesus did Not instruct that we today should cast out demons. That was happening only when Jesus and the apostles were around.
Our 'spiritual work' is to tell others about God's Kingdom (Daniel 2:44) as Jesus did and instructed to do - Luke 4:43; Matthew 24:14.
At death we are in God's safe hands, so there is No biblical reason for anyone else to watch over us.

No such thing as a demon. An inspired book uses the word devil.

There are no animals in parables. The parable of the swine of the sea, the parable of hogwash.

The modern definition of hogwash, which is nonsense, is what certain of the ancients called a devil.

Many stories of hogwash/nonsense they called a legion of devils.

To reveal a story that is nothing but hogwash is what they called casting out a devil.

Ironic, the modern definition of devil is a devil in and of itself, nothing but hogwash.

I cast out devils, stories of hogwash, in christ's name, as he said to do.

You're sure Christ didn't instruct us to do that even unto this day?

 

[Crawford]

Faith comes from "fidere", to trust. Everyone needs faith to live. You usually believe your bank statement, your credit card statement etc., especially if they match your records. You trust your car is going to get you to work as well as it did
yesterday. Just going outside takes faith you will be safe. This is faith based on past evidence; occasionally you're wrong. Unfortunately the term faith has come to mean things held to be true without evidence, blind faith. This is not the faith the Bible refers to. It refers to things you hold true because evidence has been provided; that does not mean it is unreasonable to go beyond the immediate evidence. For example; your child has always told you the truth before and now she may seem not to be if someone contradicts her. To have faith in her would not be unreasonable unless very strong evidence was provided against her, even then past experience leading you to trust her anyway may be reasonable.
A lot therefore depends on what you accept as evidence. Are your standards consistent? For example: do you accept
the works of ancient historians, Livy, Herodotus etc as true but reject Luke even though the archaeological, internal and external evidence for his accuracy is very strong. Then you are being inconsistent. Are your standards coherent? In other words do they make sense? Are they logical? Does science, history, archaeology etc. support you.
In this sense christian faith and superstition have nothing in common.

 

[Norman Beall]

... In this sense christian faith and superstition have nothing in common.

Christianity includes a dozen different ages for the earth and mankind upon it. That's not faith, that's superstition.

The majority on earth that says any christian is wrong in their beliefs, is other christians. Perhaps you should listen to what christianity is telling you? You're wrong. Unless the majority of christianity is wrong is what you're saying?

 

[loverofhumanity]

You used your mind and intellect to make sense of Baháʼu'lláh's rambling writings? I congratulate you.

I do my best to learn what I can from many different sources and am studying at Uni to try and develop better skills like critical thinking, mindfulness and communication. We can never stop learning.

 

[Bird123]

You know, I was going to write a different thread, but the more I wrote, the more I noticed that I was conflating superstion and faith. What, exactly, is the difference though?

If I ask god to help me, how is that different than asking my house elf to help me? Does it matter if I think angels are watching over my loved ones vs. if my ancestors watch over them? If I cast out demons from a suspected witch, how is it different if I do it in the name of jesus than if I do it using folk magic?

If I were a Christian still, I would say that the main defining factor is that belief in the god of the bible would be an example of faith, while everything else that's a supernatural belief is based on things outside of that and is of the world, and therefore superstitious. Do you feel the same? Are other religions practicing faith or superstition? Is the main factor in the veneration of gods? If so, would the belief in gods be faith, while the belief in magic be superstitious? What if your religion allowed for the existance of magic? Even the bible talks of magic, so I don't know... The whole thing is very confusing for me.

They all seem to be rooted in the supernatural, so where is this split between the two, precisely? Can they, and do both faith and superstition coexist?

I know this topic has been done before in the past... but the answers are still vague. I feel like it's hard to have a conversation about things related to the topic if the topic isn't settled first. I guess I'm just looking for something more concrete and definite. Maybe we can all reach some kind of concensus, finally.

Superstition and faith are exactly the same thing. They are both altering their actions based upon Beliefs rather than Discovering the Truth and going from there.

Those that know the Real Truth wonder why others do such a thing. Perhaps generations upon generations have taught their children if the answers aren't easily found, accept those beliefs because it's easier.

How can others accept and be satisfied with Beliefs? I could never do it. I could never be happy not knowing the Truth.

To Question is the start of the journey to Discovery. Have kids been taught to blindly accept "CAUSE I SAID SO???" How is that working for everyone?? I can see there is a long way to go!!

Take the effort. Do the work it takes. The results and the kids will be much better. Beliefs merely point the direction by which one can search for the truth. It has never ever been the end of the journey. It's the Beginning.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!