Socialist Healthcare is Fundamentally Flawed

[Revoltingest]

Since when does it upset me? I just think it's funny that you don't know how to spell.
Now, now. Personal attacks aren't welcome here. I know it's hard for you to formulate a reasonable argument, but saying nothing would be better than the nonsense above. It would also make you look better.

Geeze, don't get so upset about it.
Reasoned arguments are like seasoned bacon....not to be wasted on the unappreciative.

 

[Magic Man]

Geeze, don't get so upset about it.

Oh, yeah, I forgot about your delusions. OK, carry on pretending I'm upset about it.

Reasoned arguments are like seasoned bacon....not to be wasted on the unappreciative.

Hmmm...so, what you're saying is that I shouldn't waste my time on you? That's probably a good call, but I get too bored too often.

 

[Revoltingest]

Hmmm...so, what you're saying is that I shouldn't waste my time on you?

Yes. I'm just unworthy of your attention.

 

[Penumbra]

 

[Vinayaka]

It isn't about being smarter, but rather exercising my responsibility to be an informed patient ensuring that my own needs are being met.

And how many actually do that? I do, you do, but most don't. They just go and accept what the doc has to offer. Most people don't even know they have the legal right to walk out of a hospital or a clinic at any point they want. I just feel lucky to have found a doctor who listens. My experience with American doctors while on vacation (3 times now with family) has always been really positive, and my health care pays for it.

 

[Revoltingest]

And how many actually do that?

I don't know.
Still seems a worthy goal though.

 

[Vinayaka]

I don't know.
Still seems a worthy goal though.

I think the internet has been a godsend for those of us who want to stay informed, especially to look up the drugs we are given. There really aren't enough doctors (here at least) to be able to sit down and really give a quality explanation.

 

[Luminous]

It isn't about being smarter, but rather exercising my responsibility to be an informed patient ensuring that my own needs are being met.
In haste, a doctor can make a bad decision....I've seen it. A doctor in Canada might make a judgment based upon a budget, whereas I'm
more focused on my desires than cost allocations. There are also personal factors to weigh, & this is where I know more than the doc.
I knew that I was an active person who intended to remain that way, so a reduced risk of joint degeneration prevented by surgically fixing
the bone fragments is worth the costs & risks of going under the knife. That's what I did when I got back to the US. I interviewed a couple
orthopedic surgeons & picked a Johns Hopkins professor who was chief of staff at Baltimore's Good Samaritan Hospital. Service was
excellent & my insurance covered it all. This was the beginning of my new religion -The hospital would not accept "none" for religion
on their admission form, so hey, presto!....I became a Born Again Pedestrian.
I was no ordinary "consumer cow"....I was engineering orthopedic surgical tools for Black & Decker at the time.

I forgive you for the naive assumption that a cast is adequate for a spiral fracture. The muscles would pull the bone into a position which
would result in the limb being shorter than before, causing joint problems down the road. My added problem of the bone being split into
the ankle joint would mean no compression of the split, & greater risk of arthritis. No, a cast would be a very bad idea.

So what you are saying is that in Canada, it is illegal to pay doctors privately?

And that you neglected to tell the socialist Canadian fool that you didn't fancy giving your bone rest-time to heal with the cast; that you would much rather have lots of movement and stay active.

Interesting, would your insurance have covered International operations?

So you were a surgical tool engineer? Its a wonder you even had to go to the hospital at all. might as well have performed the desired surgery yourself.

I had no idea that casts couldn't counteract the effects of muscle tension on bone fracments.

By your details on the fracture, you seemed more informed on it than that "doctor" in Canada was... did he prevent you from speaking? Or did he just not like you because you were a Pedestrian?

Isn't insurance a socialist system by definition?

 

[Revoltingest]

So what you are saying is that in Canada, it is illegal to pay doctors privately?

I'm asking...not saying.

And that you neglected to tell the socialist Canadian fool that you didn't fancy giving your bone rest-time to heal with the cast; that you would much rather have lots of movement and stay active.

I'm not sure I understand this. The issue was not that I wanted to avoid a cast, but rather that this treatment wouldn't allow proper healing.
I'd much rather have avoided surgery....the pain, the risks, the fear, the down time.

Interesting, would your insurance have covered International operations?

It did.

So you were a surgical tool engineer? Its a wonder you even had to go to the hospital at all. might as well have performed the desired surgery yourself.

Hah! I don't do well with blood & guts. Designing tools is much easier.

I had no idea that casts couldn't counteract the effects of muscle tension on bone fracments.

A spiral fracture presents a diagonal fracture line, so the fracture surfaces would slip past each other unless there were fasteners.
My X-ray looked like a repaired piece of cheap furniture.

By your details on the fracture, you seemed more informed on it than that "doctor" in Canada was... did he prevent you from speaking? Or did he just not like you because you were a Pedestrian?

I'm sure the doc knew more than I.

Isn't insurance a socialist system by definition?

No....not when the contract is between private parties, & not the gov't.
This wasn't a case of the government owning & controlling the means of production.

 

[Luminous]

A spiral fracture presents a diagonal fracture line, so the fracture surfaces would slip past each other unless there were fasteners.

fasteners such as what? aren't the ligaments sufficient as fasteners when a cast is added to the equation?

My X-ray looked like a repaired piece of cheap furniture.

lol

I'm sure the doc knew more than I did.

No....not when the contract is between private parties, & not the gov't.

The only distinction between private parties and government I see is that I actually have a say on who leads one, but I have no say in who leads the other; infact, I believe corporations have more rights and perks than I do. The way I see it, the government is just another private party, which I and all my fellow citizens own.

isn't "means of production" a communist system, not a socialist one? and one designed for economic stability?

wait, anyway going back to "government contracts" doesn't your suggestion mean that the Military is a socialist system? and that the Senate is a socialist system? and that the Constitution is a socialist document?

 

[Revoltingest]

fasteners such as what? aren't the ligaments sufficient as fasteners when a cast is added to the equation?lol

Ligaments wouldn't have pulled in the needed directions.
Screws & a strip of metal fastened the 3 big pieces together.
I should've waited to break it this way....newer technology avoids removing the plate, so I could've skipped the 2nd surgery.
You youngsters have it better than I did in the 70s.

The only distinction between private parties and government I see is that I actually have a say on who leads one, but I have no say in who leads the other; infact, I believe corporations have more rights and perks than I do. The way I see it, the government is just another private party, which I and all my fellow citizens own.
isn't "means of production" a communist system, not a socialist one? and one designed for economic stability?

See #1....
Socialism | Define Socialism at Dictionary.com
See #16....
Private | Define Private at Dictionary.com

As for economic stability, that's an involved subject I'm not prepared to address today.

 

[Luminous]

SOCIALISM
–noun
1. a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

this doesn't seem like what I thought socialism was, this seems more like what i thought communism was. I thought socialism was setting up public schools, public medicine, public firedepartments, public police, public charity, etc. socialism here sounds more like democracy. except a non-republic democracy in which there is no private ownership allowed.

2. procedure or practice in accordance with this theory.

seems unlikely in representative governmnets.

3.

(in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.

imperfect collectivist principles sounds like corporations and investors.

damn, these political people spewing their rage for or against these views appear to be complete imbecils.

I am going to need a better definition.

 

[Luminous]

PRIVATE
–adjective 1. belonging to some particular person: private property.

corporations aren't private here, they are communaly owned by a small community.

2. pertaining to or affecting a particular person or a small group of persons; individual; personal: for your private satisfaction.

private companies can affect a great number of people

3. confined to or intended only for the persons immediately concerned; confidential: a private meeting.

the actions of corporations and major businesses and well as my local businesses, immediately concern me very much.

4. personal and not publicly expressed: one's private feelings.

5. not holding public office or employment: private citizens.

every office seems rather public to me, i don't see any of them trying to hide

6. not of an official or public character: private life.

corporations are very official and public

7. removed from or out of public view or knowledge; secret: private papers.

yes, this one seems true.

8. not open or accessible to the general public: a private beach.

this seems to fit the bill also

9. undertaken individually or personally: private research.

why the government subsidies and bailouts?

10. without the presence of others; alone.

consumers and competition much?

11. solitary; secluded.

nah

12. preferring privacy; retiring: a very private person.

yes, i guess

13. intimate; most personal: private behavior.

some businesses i guess

14. of, having, or receiving special hospital facilities, privileges, and services, especially a room of one's own and liberal visiting hours: a private room; a private patient.

ok

15. of lowest military rank.

not applicable to our conversation

16. of, pertaining to, or coming from nongovernmental sources: private funding.

ok this one seems to be the one most relavent,

–noun 17. a soldier of one of the three lowest enlisted ranks.

18. privates. private parts.


—Idiom
19. in private, not publicly; secretly: The hearing will be conducted in private.

 

[Luminous]

So is our government a private or socialist system? nevermind, im using a false dichotomy; since socialist actually means something other then what i thought. our government is a public system.(though private in some ways). what this means is that public healthcare is not socialist. I guess you could add a different system: "governmental"... in this way the military would not be socialist, and the senate and representatives and president would not be socialist either, and neither would our constitution.

 

[Revoltingest]

So is our government a private or socialist system?

It's not "private".
I'd call it a hybrid of socialism & capitalism....with a socialist vector.

 

[Luminous]

It's not "private".
I'd call it a hybrid of socialism & capitalism....with a socialist vector.

so is public healthcare a hybrid of socialism and capitalism? is the military? is the constitution?

 

[Darkness]

It's failed everywhere it was tried. It makes everyone pay higher taxes. It lowers the quality of healthcare. It makes longer waiting lines. It eliminates people's ability to choose their own healthcare plans and their own doctors. It means lesser healthcare for the elderly. It makes things even easier on people who don't work and skim off government. There is absolutely no desire for anyone to be a doctor. Oh and don't forget that ever since England adopted universal healthcare, patient deaths due to doctor negligence have risen nearly 80% more than they were before.

This is America, if you need a surgery, you get a job and you work for a living like a normal person, don't skim off government programs that let you sit on your *** for 5 years, or wait, even more years now, since they extended unemployment. For every one person who is legitimately bad off and incapable of rational thought and/or working, there are a thousand people who abuse the system for their own personal gain and take money off of social security. Plus it's not like people don't all get healthcare when they need it, liberal propaganda has people believing that if you go into an emergency room you won't get treated simply because you're not "super rich" which is a complete and utter lie. They are required to treat you, it doesn't matter how much money you have.

Why should the government decide what healthcare I get? Why should the government decide who my doctor is? It shouldn't, but that's what people want. People are getting lazy and stupid, they want the government to do everything for them, since they're too lazy to actually get off their *** and do something like they're supposed to. If anyone remembers during the 2008 election, reporters were asking random people off the street why they were voting for who they were voting for, and the number one answer for people who voted for Obama (a Democrat), was that he would "take care of them" and "pay off their debt for them" because they were too ******* stupid to pay off their own debt, in fact, they were stupid enough to get in debt to begin with by purchasing things they don't need on credit.

I did not realise that we are extending April Fools' to an entire week. :sarcastic

 

[Revoltingest]

so is public healthcare a hybrid of socialism and capitalism? is the military? is the constitution?

Yes.
No - the military is a means of destruction, not a means of production.
No.

 

[Valjean]

Healthcare in the US is a crazy-quilt of different systems.
The Veteran's administration is a pure socialist system. The government owns and runs the hospitals and the Drs are government employees.

Medicare is a single-payer system. The Hospitals and Drs are private but medical bills are paid for by a non-profit government agency.

Heathcare for most people is through private or public hospitals with payment covered by a combination of for-profit insurance and out-of-pocket.

To further complicate things each state has it's own system of insurance and hospital regulations, subsidies, &c, and each Insurance carrier, in turn, has its own regulations, paperwork, different coverage plans plus individual contracts with each employer.

 

[Luminous]

Yes.
No - the military is a means of destruction, not a means of production.
No.

I see them all as means of production.