Socialist Healthcare is Fundamentally Flawed

[Valjean]

The problem with socialized health care is that I never go to the doctor.

Kind of like my "problem" with public education -- I have no kids.

 

[Revoltingest]

Kind of like my "problem" with public education -- I have no kids.

I bet you were one once.

 

[Valjean]

LOL! -- touche.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not begrudging my public ed tax burden. I'm happy to pay for a few services I don't personally use when they'll improve the society I live in.

 

[Vinayaka]

As a Canadian, I love our health care system. It has a few problems, but at last we don't have people not getting treated for a lack of dollars. Most of us also have extended health coverage insurance for stuff that goes beyond basic, like dental, prescriptions etc.

 

[Sunstone]

It's failed everywhere it was tried. It makes everyone pay higher taxes. It lowers the quality of healthcare. It makes longer waiting lines. It eliminates people's ability to choose their own healthcare plans and their own doctors. It means lesser healthcare for the elderly. It makes things even easier on people who don't work and skim off government. There is absolutely no desire for anyone to be a doctor. Oh and don't forget that ever since England adopted universal healthcare, patient deaths due to doctor negligence have risen nearly 80% more than they were before.

This is America, if you need a surgery, you get a job and you work for a living like a normal person, don't skim off government programs that let you sit on your *** for 5 years, or wait, even more years now, since they extended unemployment. For every one person who is legitimately bad off and incapable of rational thought and/or working, there are a thousand people who abuse the system for their own personal gain and take money off of social security. Plus it's not like people don't all get healthcare when they need it, liberal propaganda has people believing that if you go into an emergency room you won't get treated simply because you're not "super rich" which is a complete and utter lie. They are required to treat you, it doesn't matter how much money you have.

Why should the government decide what healthcare I get? Why should the government decide who my doctor is? It shouldn't, but that's what people want. People are getting lazy and stupid, they want the government to do everything for them, since they're too lazy to actually get off their *** and do something like they're supposed to. If anyone remembers during the 2008 election, reporters were asking random people off the street why they were voting for who they were voting for, and the number one answer for people who voted for Obama (a Democrat), was that he would "take care of them" and "pay off their debt for them" because they were too ******* stupid to pay off their own debt, in fact, they were stupid enough to get in debt to begin with by purchasing things they don't need on credit.

By chance, are you one of those people who feel it is their duty and obligation to the rest of us to be both insulting and poorly informed?

 

[Revoltingest]

As a Canadian, I love our health care system. It has a few problems, but at last we don't have people not getting treated for a lack of dollars. Most of us also have extended health coverage insurance for stuff that goes beyond basic, like dental, prescriptions etc.

What happens if you want some procedure, which they might deny or make you wait too long?
Could you pay for the procedure in Canada?

 

[Penumbra]

It's failed everywhere it was tried. It makes everyone pay higher taxes. It lowers the quality of healthcare. It makes longer waiting lines. It eliminates people's ability to choose their own healthcare plans and their own doctors. It means lesser healthcare for the elderly. It makes things even easier on people who don't work and skim off government. There is absolutely no desire for anyone to be a doctor. Oh and don't forget that ever since England adopted universal healthcare, patient deaths due to doctor negligence have risen nearly 80% more than they were before.

This is America, if you need a surgery, you get a job and you work for a living like a normal person, don't skim off government programs that let you sit on your *** for 5 years, or wait, even more years now, since they extended unemployment. For every one person who is legitimately bad off and incapable of rational thought and/or working, there are a thousand people who abuse the system for their own personal gain and take money off of social security. Plus it's not like people don't all get healthcare when they need it, liberal propaganda has people believing that if you go into an emergency room you won't get treated simply because you're not "super rich" which is a complete and utter lie. They are required to treat you, it doesn't matter how much money you have.

Why should the government decide what healthcare I get? Why should the government decide who my doctor is? It shouldn't, but that's what people want. People are getting lazy and stupid, they want the government to do everything for them, since they're too lazy to actually get off their *** and do something like they're supposed to. If anyone remembers during the 2008 election, reporters were asking random people off the street why they were voting for who they were voting for, and the number one answer for people who voted for Obama (a Democrat), was that he would "take care of them" and "pay off their debt for them" because they were too ******* stupid to pay off their own debt, in fact, they were stupid enough to get in debt to begin with by purchasing things they don't need on credit.

Actually, socialized medicine has worked very well in some places. America's cost for medical needs are far out of control, in part because they don't have the bargaining power that countries with more socialized medicine have.

My criticism of various socialistic models is not that they don't work. It's that government frameworks have to be adapted to suit the population. Countries with 5-10 million fairly culturally homogeneous people seem to be quite capable of getting socialism to work well. I do not think, however, that a 300+ million person country with among the most diverse populations is going to put that level of socialism to good use.

 

[Vinayaka]

What happens if you want some procedure, which they might deny or make you wait too long?
Could you pay for the procedure in Canada?

I'm not really aware of specifics, but most of the procedures that are or are not paid for are laid out clearly. Yes, you can wait too long. Some of our provincial governments (provinces are in charge of implementation) underfund health care. I think it is an underhanded tactic to somehow prove that the system is broken, and we need to move to the American or any two-tiered system. Some people are able to get around it better than others. Most places are top heavy with administrators getting paid way too much. These are just my opinions of course.

The main criticism I have of health care in general is that we don't practice prevention enough.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm not really aware of specifics, but most of the procedures that are or are not paid for are laid out clearly.

Does that mean you'll know how you'll not be served, or that alternatives are avaialble?

Yes, you can wait too long. Some of our provincial governments (provinces are in charge of implementation) underfund health care. I think it is an underhanded tactic to somehow prove that the system is broken, and we need to move to the American or any two-tiered system.

Careful there, fella....I'm not advocating anything regarding your system.

 

[Vinayaka]

Does that mean you'll know how you'll not be served, or that alternatives are avaialble?

Careful there, fella....I'm not advocating anything regarding your system.

It means that some procedures are covered while other more optional ones (facelifts as a wild example) aren't. The extended health care plans also work that way. Sometimes limits are on it. For example I can get a new pair of glasses once every two years, but not once a month. Only 15 physio treatments are covered. Chiropractic is not covered by the regular plan but is by the extended plan. Many employers have group plans for the extended stuff.

I know you're not advocating anything. Don't worry. Been a long time since anyone called me 'fella', guy.

 

[Revoltingest]

Let's say you had a spiral fracture of your tibia with a split down into the ankle joint. Your doc said a cast is adequate treatment.
But you, an informed consumer & very active guy, want to have surgery to align & fasten the pieces of bone together. What
options do you have? Can you just pay for the surgery yourself?

 

[Vinayaka]

Let's say you had a spiral fracture of your tibia with a split down into the ankle joint. Your doc said a cast is adequate treatment.
But you, an informed consumer & very active guy, want to have surgery to align & fasten the pieces of bone together. What
options do you have? Can you just pay for the surgery yourself?

I have no idea. I have heard of people going out of country to get things done. Mostly rich people or people seeking unapproved things like that new MS treatment. I couldn't afford to go out of country or pay for some procedure. Like I said, I'm not up on it. Personally, I'd probably shop around.

 

[Revoltingest]

I have no idea. I have heard of people going out of country to get things done. Mostly rich people or people seeking unapproved things like that new MS treatment. I couldn't afford to go out of country or pay for some procedure. Like I said, I'm not up on it. Personally, I'd probably shop around.

I was just curious cuz of personal experience in Canada.

 

[Luminous]

Let's say you had a spiral fracture of your tibia with a split down into the ankle joint. Your doc said a cast is adequate treatment.
But you, an informed consumer & very active guy, want to have surgery to align & fasten the pieces of bone together. What
options do you have? Can you just pay for the surgery yourself?

a consumer cow who thinks they are smarter than someone with a Medical Degree?
a cast IS adequate treatment. did this consumer see x-rays that gave them concern? most spiral fractures shouldn't need surgery.

One of the first considerations for a medical provider is the immobilization of the fracture site. Immobilization can be done internally or externally. The primary goal of immobilization is to maintain the realignment of the bone long enough for healing to start and progress. Immobilization by external fixation uses splints, casts, or braces; and this may be the primary and only procedure for fracture treatment. Splinting to immobilize a fracture can be done with or without traction. In emergency situations, splinting is a useful form of fracture management if the injured individual must be moved by someone other than a trained medical person. It should be done without causing additional pain and without moving the bone segments. In a clinical environment, plaster of Paris casts are used for immobilization. Braces are useful as they often allow movement above and below the fracture site. Treatments for stress fractures include rest and decreasing or stopping any activity that causes or increases pain.

Next, the medical providers will reduce the fractured bones. Fracture reductions are either closed or open. Closed reduction refers to realigning the bones without breaking the skin. It is accomplished using manipulation and/or traction and is commonly done with some kind of anesthetic. Open reduction primarily refers to surgery that is performed to realign the bones. Fractures with little or no displacement may not require any form of reduction.

 

[waitasec]

what happened to shivancommander?

 

[jarofthoughts]

It's failed everywhere it was tried. It makes everyone pay higher taxes. It lowers the quality of healthcare. It makes longer waiting lines. It eliminates people's ability to choose their own healthcare plans and their own doctors. It means lesser healthcare for the elderly. It makes things even easier on people who don't work and skim off government. There is absolutely no desire for anyone to be a doctor. Oh and don't forget that ever since England adopted universal healthcare, patient deaths due to doctor negligence have risen nearly 80% more than they were before.

This is America, if you need a surgery, you get a job and you work for a living like a normal person, don't skim off government programs that let you sit on your *** for 5 years, or wait, even more years now, since they extended unemployment. For every one person who is legitimately bad off and incapable of rational thought and/or working, there are a thousand people who abuse the system for their own personal gain and take money off of social security. Plus it's not like people don't all get healthcare when they need it, liberal propaganda has people believing that if you go into an emergency room you won't get treated simply because you're not "super rich" which is a complete and utter lie. They are required to treat you, it doesn't matter how much money you have.

Why should the government decide what healthcare I get? Why should the government decide who my doctor is? It shouldn't, but that's what people want. People are getting lazy and stupid, they want the government to do everything for them, since they're too lazy to actually get off their *** and do something like they're supposed to. If anyone remembers during the 2008 election, reporters were asking random people off the street why they were voting for who they were voting for, and the number one answer for people who voted for Obama (a Democrat), was that he would "take care of them" and "pay off their debt for them" because they were too ******* stupid to pay off their own debt, in fact, they were stupid enough to get in debt to begin with by purchasing things they don't need on credit.

Wow... That's a lot of ignorance in one place...

 

[ninerbuff]

what happened to shivancommander?

Like I said, he's a troll.

 

[Revoltingest]

a consumer cow who thinks they are smarter than someone with a Medical Degree?
a cast IS adequate treatment. did this consumer see x-rays that gave them concern? most spiral fractures shouldn't need surgery.

It isn't about being smarter, but rather exercising my responsibility to be an informed patient ensuring that my own needs are being met.
In haste, a doctor can make a bad decision....I've seen it. A doctor in Canada might make a judgment based upon a budget, whereas I'm
more focused on my desires than cost allocations. There are also personal factors to weigh, & this is where I know more than the doc.
I knew that I was an active person who intended to remain that way, so a reduced risk of joint degeneration prevented by surgically fixing
the bone fragments is worth the costs & risks of going under the knife. That's what I did when I got back to the US. I interviewed a couple
orthopedic surgeons & picked a Johns Hopkins professor who was chief of staff at Baltimore's Good Samaritan Hospital. Service was
excellent & my insurance covered it all. This was the beginning of my new religion -The hospital would not accept "none" for religion
on their admission form, so hey, presto!....I became a Born Again Pedestrian.
I was no ordinary "consumer cow"....I was engineering orthopedic surgical tools for Black & Decker at the time.

I forgive you for the naive assumption that a cast is adequate for a spiral fracture. The muscles would pull the bone into a position which
would result in the limb being shorter than before, causing joint problems down the road. My added problem of the bone being split into
the ankle joint would mean no compression of the split, & greater risk of arthritis. No, a cast would be a very bad idea.

 

[Magic Man]

I ditched the apostrophe, but I prefer this spelling....it looks better & it upsets you.

Since when does it upset me? I just think it's funny that you don't know how to spell.

What a buffoon....if yer lucky, you just might become an old man some day...or a crone.

Now, now. Personal attacks aren't welcome here. I know it's hard for you to formulate a reasonable argument, but saying nothing would be better than the nonsense above. It would also make you look better.

 

[Magic Man]

A doctor in Canada might make a judgment based upon a budget,

You're right. Doctors in America would never make a judgement based on their budget.