So God gives you a free pass...

[McBell]

If morality doesn't come from God, then what does?

So far as I can tell, nothing.

 

[fantome profane]

Like, seriously, how many theists have you ever run into that felt the urge to commit heinous acts and only their fear of retribution held them in check.

Sadly, I've bumped into quite a few in my travels on the net...

I have encountered a number of people who have made that claim, but I have never really believed that they would kill, or rape even if they thought they could get away with it. So I suppose that I believed that those who were making this claim were guilty of lying, but I tend to doubt they were true sociopaths.

 

[Me Myself]

I get what you mean, and it would seem to disprove the idea that people need religion to get their morality (which is where I was aiming, even though it didn't quite go that way.)

but also, note in my OP where I said, "You can do whatever you want, and you'll never be punished for it. Not in this life, not after you die." I specifically said there would be no repurcussions at all, not even in this life. So no getting arrested, no jail time, etc. The only thing that could possibly happen is your own guilty conscience. And if the religious rules of morality don't apply to you, any guilty conscience must be from a non-religious source of your morality, which again is the point I was trying to make with this thread.

Oh! No repercutions ithis life? By all means robb to the rich and give to the poor (which right now would also conviniently include me )

 

[LuisDantas]

Why not? Are you suggesting that God can't come up with a way to prove he exists and is the one talking to you, even if I can't come up with such a method?

I am saying that I can't conceive it. But if it is possible, then by that point I am no longer my own person anyway, just an extension of His Will.

 

[LuisDantas]

Sadly, I've bumped into quite a few in my travels on the net...

There are a few who actually fail to accept that we Atheists can be at all moral because we are not like that.

 

[LuisDantas]

You just missed my whole point.

If morality doesn't come from God, then what does?

This isn't hard and it isn't going to be painful.....much. lol

Mestemia has a point. There is no good reason to assume that there must be a God at all.

 

[Skwim]

If morality doesn't come from God, then what does?

Well, he did say . . .

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
( Isaiah 45:7)

​

So those came from god.

 

[Ingledsva]

Yes. We were all born under sin and death which God caused and His promise is to restore all those born under Adam will be given a life given acqitual for the whole race

1 Corin 15: 21: For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23: But every man in his own order:

Romans 5:18-20 (Weymouth’s)

It follows then just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which to the whole race, so also is the result of a single degree of righteousness is a life giving acquittal which extends to the whole race. (19) for as thought the disobedience of one individual the mass of mankind were constituted as sinners, so also though the obedience of one, the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous. Now law was brought in later on so that the transgression might increase, but sin increased, grace is overflowed.​

These DO NOT mean that rising applies to the "WHOLE RACE." Read the whole book!


1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

1Co 15:18 Then they - also - which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.


Those two verses PROVE a difference between believers and non-believers. It is saying ONLY believers rise after death.

Only the clearance to believe (if they wish) has been given to all. Nothing more.


*

 

[Benoni]

These DO NOT mean that rising applies to the "WHOLE RACE." Read the whole book!


1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

1Co 15:18 Then they - also - which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.


Those two verses PROVE a difference between believers and non-believers. It is saying ONLY believers rise after death.

Only the clearance to believe (if they wish) has been given to all. Nothing more.


*

A few points.


Luke 3: 6 (Amp) And all mankind shall see (behold and [a]understand and at last acknowledge) the salvation of God (the deliverance from eternal death decreed by God).

Acts 24:15
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Resurrection means to rise; notice the word unjust.

Acts 15: 13-18 (ESV) 16(A) "'After this I will return,and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen;I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it 17that the remnant of mankind(B) may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles(C) who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things 18(D) known from of old.'

Acts 15: 13-18 (Message) James broke the silence. "Friends, listen. Simeon has told us the story of how God at the very outset made sure that racial outsiders were included. This is in perfect agreement with the words of the prophets: After this, I'm coming back; I'll rebuild David's ruined house; I'll put all the pieces together again; I'll make it look like new So outsiders who seek will find, so they'll have a place to come to, All the pagan peoples included in what I'm doing. "God said it and now he's doing it. It's no afterthought; he's always known he would do this

Acts 15: (Amp) 17So that the rest of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles upon whom My name has been invoked,

Acts 15: (HCSB) 17 so that those who are left of mankind may seek the Lord— even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, says the Lord who does these things,

Acts 15: 17 (NIRV) Then the rest of the people can look to the Lord. This means all the non-Jews who belong to me. The Lord says this. He is the one who does these things.' —

(Amos 9:11,12)
Now if the rest of men may seek the Lord, All the pagan peoples included in what I'm doing “, “ all the Gentiles , the “remainder of man kind are destroyed as you proclaim in the Lake of Devine Purging (Lake of Fire); then what about this promise.

 

[Benoni]

You read the whole book. Can't have it both ways.

Besides why do you care you are an unbeliever

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Probably. The only reason I don't go for such things now is because I prefer not to live as a prisoner.

Hey, I'm just being honest.

 

[Tiberius]

So doesn't that argue against your point? Sure, not everyone needs a deity to be moral but some do. Plus you can't discount what effect religious morality has on you in a subconscious social manner.

Actually, since I am an atheist, I don't believe that it is a god they are getting their morality from. I believe they are getting their morality from the same place as everyone else, and they just attribute it to a god.

 

[Tiberius]

I am saying that I can't conceive it. But if it is possible, then by that point I am no longer my own person anyway, just an extension of His Will.

How does this work? How do you cease being you just because God can do something you can't conceive of?

 

[Quagmire]

I would spend a lot of time riding the bus and slapping the kids sitting in the elderly/handicapped seats when they won't give up their seat for an elderly or handicapped person.

And if some kid is stretched out across all three seats, he'd get slapped 3 times.

 

[Ingledsva]

A few points.

Luke 3: 6 (Amp) And all mankind shall see (behold and [a]understand and at last acknowledge) the salvation of God (the deliverance from eternal death decreed by God).

Acts 24:15
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Resurrection means to rise; notice the word unjust.

Acts 15: 13-18 (ESV) 16(A) "'After this I will return,and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen;I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it 17that the remnant of mankind(B) may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles(C) who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things 18(D) known from of old.'

Acts 15: 13-18 (Message) James broke the silence. "Friends, listen. Simeon has told us the story of how God at the very outset made sure that racial outsiders were included. This is in perfect agreement with the words of the prophets: After this, I'm coming back; I'll rebuild David's ruined house; I'll put all the pieces together again; I'll make it look like new So outsiders who seek will find, so they'll have a place to come to, All the pagan peoples included in what I'm doing. "God said it and now he's doing it. It's no afterthought; he's always known he would do this

Acts 15: (Amp) 17So that the rest of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles upon whom My name has been invoked,

Acts 15: (HCSB) 17 so that those who are left of mankind may seek the Lord— even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, says the Lord who does these things,

Acts 15: 17 (NIRV) Then the rest of the people can look to the Lord. This means all the non-Jews who belong to me. The Lord says this. He is the one who does these things.' —

(Amos 9:11,12)
Now if the rest of men may seek the Lord, All the pagan peoples included in what I'm doing “, “ all the Gentiles , the “remainder of man kind are destroyed as you proclaim in the Lake of Devine Purging (Lake of Fire); then what about this promise.

The Bible tells us that Jesus is coming back - that all shall be judged - but only the believers shall rise as Jesus did.

"All have the opportunity," or "ALL WILL SEEK," is not the same as "all will resurrect as Jesus did."


John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”


I think people are confusing all "standing for judgment" - (when Jesus comes) - with those believers found to be just, therefore "resurrecting" as Jesus did.

John 12:47-48 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.


Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


This next shows two of the meanings of the word - anastasis - "stand/pulled up", and "rise up", as in (stand up from the grave,) - and another, (rise to Heaven with Jesus) - being used together.


John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, into the resurrection of damnation.


The "resurrection" of damnation, means to stand up from the grave for Judgment.

The "resurrection of LIFE" means to rise to Heaven with Jesus after Judgment.

These two should have been translated with different words.


*

 

[BSM1]

Let's say that one day, God comes down and says to you, "Look, I like you, so I'm going to give you a free pass to Heaven. You can do whatever you want, and you'll never be punished for it. Not in this life, not after you die. No matter what you do, you are guaranteed to get into Heaven." And he also proves to you beyond any doubt that he is God. So for the purposes of this thread, take it that it is actually God who is giving you this, not Satan in disguise or anything.

So, if you were given this assurance by God, would you go out and become a killer, thief, rapist, etc?

Worse. I would become a liberal Democrat.

 

[Benoni]

The Bible tells us that Jesus is coming back - that all shall be judged - but only the believers shall rise as Jesus did.

"All have the opportunity," or "ALL WILL SEEK," is not the same as "all will resurrect as Jesus did."


John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”


I think people are confusing all "standing for judgment" - (when Jesus comes) - with those believers found to be just, therefore "resurrecting" as Jesus did.

John 12:47-48 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.


Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


This next shows two of the meanings of the word - anastasis - "stand/pulled up", and "rise up", as in (stand up from the grave,) - and another, (rise to Heaven with Jesus) - being used together.


John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, into the resurrection of damnation.


The "resurrection" of damnation, means to stand up from the grave for Judgment.

The "resurrection of LIFE" means to rise to Heaven with Jesus after Judgment.

These two should have been translated with different words.


*

Why do you even care? You are not a believer???
and they that have done evil, into the resurrection of damnation or judgment

God's judgments are just.
In the New Testament, the word used is "Krisis", which we have changed to "Crisis". In English, it means "a critical period of time, a decisive moment, turning point, deciding time." In Greek, it means "a separating, choosing, deciding, determining, judging, trial, judgment."

In the New Testament, the word judgment (Krisis) is used to denote the deciding time, trial, or probation of man. This time of judgment is spoken of in scripture in such a way as to indicate that it is given to man as a blessing and a favor. It is shown as a cause for great rejoicing and thanksgiving. In Psalm 96, all nature and people are told to exult and rejoice "Before the Lord, for He cometh to judge the world. He shall judge the world with righteousness and the people with his truth."
Judgment time as a period of great rejoicing is in striking contrast to the orthodox view of a time of horror and dread! It would almost seem we were reading from a different Bible. No — it is the same Bible, but it is "the good tidings of great joy" that the angels said "shall be unto all people." These good tidings have been obscured by the traditions of men and clouded over by carnal reasonings.

As a result, we have been taught that only a remnant would be saved and the remainder of mankind would suffer the tortures of an everlasting hell.

Let us prove the nature of judgment by looking at how the "saviours on Mount Zion" are judged. They are told to judge the authority of that carnal, fleshly man, Esau. And that doesn’t mean judging someone outside of themselves — it means the Spirit of Christ within them judging the carnal nature that Christ nailed to the cross. The epistles are full of divine instruction as to how this shall be done.
Believers are told to: "yield" themselves to God; to "present" their bodies living sacrifices; to "humble" themselves; to "crucify" the flesh; to reckon themselves "dead"; to judge themselves that they may not be condemned (judged) with the world."

 

[Quagmire]

I would also just ban proselytizers on the spot.

 

[YmirGF]

I would also just ban proselytizers on the spot.

I'm more incline to incinerate them, but hey, that's just me.

 

[LuisDantas]

How does this work? How do you cease being you just because God can do something you can't conceive of?

Because part of that would be my existing on an universe where God is real.