Should we believe in Free Will?

[Nakosis]

According to studies, belief in determinism can cause both immoral behavior and general unhappiness. Is it then better to believe in free will even if it is a lie?

Or is Sam Harris right? Is it better to accept the "truth" (according to scientific understanding) of determinism.

When people hear there is no free will, they wrongly become fatalistic; they think their efforts will make no difference. But this is a mistake. People are not moving toward an inevitable destiny; given a different stimulus (like a different idea about free will), they will behave differently and so have different lives. If people better understood these fine distinctions, Harris believes, the consequences of losing faith in free will would be much less negative than Vohs’s and Baumeister’s experiments suggest.

There’s No Such Thing as Free Will

Belief can change our lives? But, are we free to choose what we believe?

Seems to me it's hard to escape a need for indeterminism, at least the belief in it, for the sake of civilization.

 

[Foxic]

Did you willfully, freely choose to create this thread or were you predetermined to post it?

 

[Mock Turtle]

I decided not to reply, so ignore the imposter who has done so.

 

[Curious George]

According to studies, belief in determinism can cause both immoral behavior and general unhappiness. Is it then better to believe in free will even if it is a lie?

Or is Sam Harris right? Is it better to accept the "truth" (according to scientific understanding) of determinism.

When people hear there is no free will, they wrongly become fatalistic; they think their efforts will make no difference. But this is a mistake. People are not moving toward an inevitable destiny; given a different stimulus (like a different idea about free will), they will behave differently and so have different lives. If people better understood these fine distinctions, Harris believes, the consequences of losing faith in free will would be much less negative than Vohs’s and Baumeister’s experiments suggest.

There’s No Such Thing as Free Will

Belief can change our lives? But, are we free to choose what we believe?

Seems to me it's hard to escape a need for indeterminism, at least the belief in it, for the sake of civilization.

Please actually find the research that supports determinism. It is not as strong as some people believe. In fact, there are other papers and experiments that very much contradict the research on which determinists base their supposed belief.

The truth is that regardless of where we say we stand we all still believe in free will. It is an assumption on which we must rely. Free will is similar to causation in this regard.

 

[WalterTrull]

We are free to do whatever we like, subject to the laws of nature. Jump off a tall building, liable to hurt. What we are not free to do is bail from the universe. There are rules to help us see a brick wall, but in the end, a brick wall is a brick wall.

 

[`mud]

It's like driving a bumper car in the state fair on a very busy day.
And someone tosses a coin into the middle of the track,
and someone has to catch it and read out the landing.
Is it heads or tails...or does it land on it's edge,
then someone crashes into you and you fly from your car.
Do you smash you head or does `god` save your arse ?
What will be the causation in this case ?

 

[bobhikes]

When people hear there is no free will, they wrongly become fatalistic; they think their efforts will make no difference. But this is a mistake. People are not moving toward an inevitable destiny; given a different stimulus (like a different idea about free will), they will behave differently and so have different lives. If people better understood these fine distinctions, Harris believes, the consequences of losing faith in free will would be much less negative than Vohs’s and Baumeister’s experiments suggest.
.

If the above statement is true then determinism is wrong. People can't wrongly become fatalistic, or think their efforts make no difference. Their thoughts, actions and feelings all have to be determined. There is no wrong and no efforts make any difference in determinism.

 

[Quintessence]

Some of the things detractors of determinism say about its consequences leave me scratching my head. Where do some folks get these strange ideas from? Have they held a conversation with a determinist to ask them how they feel it impacts their perspective on life? Hearing stuff like "can cause both immoral behavior and general unhappiness" leads me to believe they haven't. Determinism gets an unwarranted bad rap in my culture because free will is all the rage. Where are the conversations about the deleterious effects of believing in free will, eh? I'm not sure I've ever seen one.

I've heard the usual nonsense naysaying about determinism before, but this one is a new one on me:

Seems to me it's hard to escape a need for indeterminism, at least the belief in it, for the sake of civilization.

Could you elaborate on this for me? I don't understand this argument at all. I don't understand the "hard to escape a need for indeterminism" and I really do not understand how any of this would be "for the sake of civilization " Is this a reference to the article and talking about how the "American Dream" demands belief in the illusion of free will? Is it really that hard to imagine civilization without this?

 

[Nakosis]

@Curious George
@WalterTrull
@'mud
@bobhikes

I'm not really arguing for or against determinism. Assuming determinism is true, for the sake of the argument, is it still better to believe in free will?

Would the truth, in this case be more harmful than the lie?

Some of the things detractors of determinism say about its consequences leave me scratching my head. Where do some folks get these strange ideas from? Have they held a conversation with a determinist to ask them how they feel it impacts their perspective on life? Hearing stuff like "can cause both immoral behavior and general unhappiness" leads me to believe they haven't. Determinism gets an unwarranted bad rap in my culture because free will is all the rage. Where are the conversations about the deleterious effects of believing in free will, eh? I'm not sure I've ever seen one.

That would be a good topic - What Is the Harm in Believing in Free Will

I was referring to the studies according to the article. This was how folks reacted to the two different beliefs.

I've heard the usual nonsense naysaying about determinism before, but this one is a new one on me:

Could you elaborate on this for me? I don't understand this argument at all. I don't understand the "hard to escape a need for indeterminism" and I really do not understand how any of this would be "for the sake of civilization " Is this a reference to the article and talking about how the "American Dream" demands belief in the illusion of free will? Is it really that hard to imagine civilization without this?

Harris believes he can alter the outcome by his actions. In this case having these people talk to him, a determinist.

IOW he has to believe the choice he makes can change the future.

 

[Curious George]

@Curious George
@WalterTrull
@'mud
@bobhikes

I'm not really arguing for or against determinism. Assuming determinism is true, for the sake of the argument, is it still better to believe in free will?

Assuming determinism is true, you have no control over your beliefs so the point is moot.

There is no "better."

 

[Mindmaster]

According to studies, belief in determinism can cause both immoral behavior and general unhappiness. Is it then better to believe in free will even if it is a lie?

Or is Sam Harris right? Is it better to accept the "truth" (according to scientific understanding) of determinism.

When people hear there is no free will, they wrongly become fatalistic; they think their efforts will make no difference. But this is a mistake. People are not moving toward an inevitable destiny; given a different stimulus (like a different idea about free will), they will behave differently and so have different lives. If people better understood these fine distinctions, Harris believes, the consequences of losing faith in free will would be much less negative than Vohs’s and Baumeister’s experiments suggest.

There’s No Such Thing as Free Will

Belief can change our lives? But, are we free to choose what we believe?

Seems to me it's hard to escape a need for indeterminism, at least the belief in it, for the sake of civilization.

Determinism <> Fatalism.

Free will is a comfortable lie, in only that you'd make whatever choice you'd naturally make anyway you just believe you made a decision. Even without thinking much on a subject, you'd respond in a way based on your previous experience nearly reflexively. What beliefs have you had _all_ of your life? Well, the answer to that is none. You were born a blank slate like everyone else and then you started defining an ego and conditions.

Most of these conditions were programmed in the early years of your life, you didn't pick them they were forced upon you. The only way you can reject any of that is if the circumstances in your life put you in a position where you were directly harmed by your notions. You learned via the whip and you didn't really make any choice here at all. The illusion of free will is simply this created ego defending its existence, as it were. The fear that life would be pointless is also a creation of this ego attempting to scare you away from dissecting it.

What if the purpose and meaning of life is really something as simple as, "Just being"? Isn't that good enough?

 

[Mock Turtle]

Determinism <> Fatalism.

Free will is a comfortable lie, in only that you'd make whatever choice you'd naturally make anyway you just believe you made a decision. Even without thinking much on a subject, you'd respond in a way based on your previous experience nearly reflexively. What beliefs have you had _all_ of your life? Well, the answer to that is none. You were born a blank slate like everyone else and then you started defining an ego and conditions.

Most of these conditions were programmed in the early years of your life, you didn't pick them they were forced upon you. The only way you can reject any of that is if the circumstances in your life put you in a position where you were directly harmed by your notions. You learned via the whip and you didn't really make any choice here at all. The illusion of free will is simply this created ego defending its existence, as it were. The fear that life would be pointless is also a creation of this ego attempting to scare you away from dissecting it.

What if the purpose and meaning of life is really something as simple as, "Just being"? Isn't that good enough?

So if I flipped a coin to decide on something, that would be determined, or the results would be - not being random?

 

[Mindmaster]

So if I flipped a coin to decide on something, that would be determined, or the results would be - not being random?

How could you tell?

If it was predetermined it lands how it always would land and anything you would do to affect it would have been predetermined as well. In fact, it would be predetermined that you even decided to flip the coin in the first place or take the advice of a coin over the little parrot standing on your shoulder called your mind.

You'd have to be predisposed to accepting the coin flip as a valid decision making tool, but it doesn't mean the results are random just that YOU don't know them.

 

[Quintessence]

I'm not really arguing for or against determinism. Assuming determinism is true, for the sake of the argument, is it still better to believe in free will?

Gotcha.

I'm not really one to view things in those terms. As I see it, things simply are what they are - the "better" and "worse" is just some human projecting their value judgements onto reality. Being able to see the equal measure of strength and weakness in all things is of greater interest to me, in part because it helps one be more certain of one's values and their consequences.

For something like this, mileage will vary from culture to culture (or individual to individual). Certainly, the detractors of determinism have imagined all sorts of "worse" outcomes that somehow come out of following that path. When something is as culturally-entrenched as the free will fantasy, it's inevitable that the culture is going to argue that maintaining that fantasy is "better." That happens in part because when something is dramatically foreign to one's way of thinking, one cannot comprehend the alternatives without considerable deprogramming.

As someone who has been in the determinist camp for enough years that I'm relatively deprogrammed from the "free will or bust" camp, these are some of the things I like about this approach:

• Determinism inspires tolerance and pluralism. I accept things for what they are and learn to value respect all things for what they are. Pluralism - a love of diversity - became a central value of mine. Note that accepting and respecting all things does not mean I like everything; it means I understand it has its place whether or not I like it or dislike it.
  • On the minus side - those who like drawing lines in the sand and favor 'us versus them' narratives find this kind of approach intolerable.
• Determinism inspires inner peace. When you accept things for what they are it's considerably easier to dismiss life's troubles and maintain an oasis of inner peace and harmony. "It is what it is" becomes the order of the day when life throws you a curve ball. It isn't apathy; I simply manage stresses without flipping out that often.
  • On the minus side - those who interpret this philosophy as an excuse for inaction or apathy should just not embrace the philosophy at all.
• Determinism inspires critical examination and reason. For a determinist, there is no such thing as an acausal event so I am constantly thinking about identifying causes that produce outcomes. I'm not reductionist or simplistic about this process either - I see events as the result of many causes that interact to produce the gestalt now.
  • On the minus side - while seeing all the angles can be fascinating, it's also pretty darned exhausting and can cause analysis paralysis.

 

[Mock Turtle]

How could you tell?

If it was predetermined it lands how it always would land and anything you would do to affect it would have been predetermined as well. In fact, it would be predetermined that you even decided to flip the coin in the first place or take the advice of a coin over the little parrot standing on your shoulder called your mind.

You'd have to be predisposed to accepting the coin flip as a valid decision making tool, but it doesn't mean the results are random just that YOU don't know them.

What? If I decide on heads, is it predetermined in some manner that I get the result I want? If a course of action relies on either heads or tails how can I affect that?

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

According to studies, belief in determinism can cause <snip>

Not even reading past this point. What studies? Let's have your sources.

 

[Skwim]

According to studies, belief in determinism can cause both immoral behavior and general unhappiness. Is it then better to believe in free will even if it is a lie?

Aside from these studies, which I would love to see (Got a link or two?), like the comfort of religion that so many need for getting through life, I can see a real comforting need to believe one has an actual say in what they think and do. So, although freewill is an illusion, the illusion does have a valuable purpose.

Belief can change our lives? But, are we free to choose what we believe?

Nope.

Seems to me it's hard to escape a need for indeterminism, at least the belief in it, for the sake of civilization.

Yup. Many people simply don't have the strength to accept determinism, particularly when it undercuts the core of their religious belief.
.
.

 

[Mindmaster]

What? If I decide on heads, is it predetermined in some manner that I get the result I want? If a course of action relies on either heads or tails how can I affect that?

That is the concept of determinism, basically, in a nutshell.

It's perhaps better to explain your coin flip in terms of entropy. There are really no random events however they may seem. It is rather impossible to collect enough data to tabulate the outcomes or predict something accurately, but random? No, never. A full discussion of entropy would be far too in-depth for a forum post, so I'll leave it on the readers to research if they care.

It'd also be predetermined whether you picked head or tails, tossed the coin or shook it in a container, or what force you used and where it landed as well as how it did, Basically, free will and randomness are beliefs - they can't be proven. Determinism has the other problem in that it cannot be disproved and any attempts to do so only show our lack of data.

 

[Nakosis]

Determinism <> Fatalism.

What if the purpose and meaning of life is really something as simple as, "Just being"? Isn't that good enough?

Apparently being and believing your actions make a difference is necessary.

Fatalism is the belief that your actions don't make a difference.

However do people have a choice to believe that or is their belief determined?

 

[Mock Turtle]

That is the concept of determinism, basically, in a nutshell.

It's perhaps better to explain your coin flip in terms of entropy. There are really no random events however they may seem. It is rather impossible to collect enough data to tabulate the outcomes or predict something accurately, but random? No, never. A full discussion of entropy would be far too in-depth for a forum post, so I'll leave it on the readers to research if they care.

It'd also be predetermined whether you picked head or tails, tossed the coin or shook it in a container, or what force you used and where it landed as well as how it did, Basically, free will and randomness are beliefs - they can't be proven. Determinism has the other problem in that it cannot be disproved and any attempts to do so only show our lack of data.

Hence why I tend to believe in free will - I'm a bit perverse.