Should the Holocaust be thought of as a European crime rather than a Nazi or German crime?

[sandandfoam]

I was listening to a history program on the radio yesterday. One of the contributors said that in 1939 the entire continent of Europe was a hostile place for Jewish people. He said refugee ships were turned away from ports all over Europe and not only were European countries unwelcoming to Jewish refugees many countries beside Germany were putting Jewish people into camps.

The way I picked up history I always condidered the Holocaust a crime of the Nazi's. I'm wondering if I am mistaken - is it more accurate to consider the Holocaust as a European crime?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I think it's more accurate to consider it a human crime.

 

[PolyHedral]

AFAIK, no other country explicitly and deliberately killed Jews.

 

[savagewind]

I think it's more accurate to consider it a human crime.

^ this

It seems the USA did not wish to interfere until the threat was against it's own country (that is just one example of it's being a crime against humanity by humanity)

 

[Iti oj]

America had only one location for jewish refugees. I learned that on ghost.hunters.

 

[Falvlun]

I was listening to a history program on the radio yesterday. One of the contributors said that in 1939 the entire continent of Europe was a hostile place for Jewish people. He said refugee ships were turned away from ports all over Europe and not only were European countries unwelcoming to Jewish refugees many countries beside Germany were putting Jewish people into camps.

The way I picked up history I always condidered the Holocaust a crime of the Nazi's. I'm wondering if I am mistaken - is it more accurate to consider the Holocaust as a European crime?

The way I see it is that the Nazi's picked an easy target.

Bullies target unpopular kids, because they don't have any friends to stick up for them and not too many people will complain.

 

[Dingbat]

AFAIK, no other country explicitly and deliberately killed Jews.

Err wrong the Ukrainians were murdering Jews in the streets after the Soviets were swept out of certain cities. Ironically the Gestapo had to step in and stop the slaughter. A few accounts from Soviet citizens of Ukraine show these events and the bizarre turning of tables.

The Vichy government also rounded up Jews to send to camps as did many other collaborative governments.

 

[ChristineES]

Yeah, human crime or Nazi crime. It shouldn't be put on all Germans or all Europeans- even those who were apathetic or turned a blind out of fear/ignorance/etc. I thought Stalin did similar things- even worse things- that was Russia.

One thing we should never do is forget about it or make believe it never happened-- that can cause something like that to happen again. I get angry when I hear Holocaust deniers.

 

[Dingbat]

Yeah, human crime or Nazi crime. It shouldn't be put on all Germans or all Europeans- even those who were apathetic or turned a blind out of fear/ignorance/etc. I thought Stalin did similar things- even worse things- that was Russia.

One thing we should never do is forget about it or make believe it never happened-- that can cause something like that to happen again. I get angry when I hear Holocaust deniers.

Stalin never systematically killed anyone to be quite honest. He killed many of the Old Bolsheviks, Military Officers, and some common citizens were rounded up in the purges as well but the large majority were diehard Bolsheviks. Old Revolutionaries are always the first to die when there is no more need for Revolutionary Terror just look at the French Revolution and many other modern revolutions.

That isn't to dismiss Stalin's crimes but it is dishonest to compare it to the systematic genocide the Nazis were carrying out. The closest the Soviets come to is the famine in the Ukraine which was already an issue from before the USSR was formed. It was merely agitated by forced collectivization, corruption through all stratas of Soviet bureaucracy, and Stalin's inability to recognize it was a serious issue. Once it was ascertained as a serious issue the Ukraine was sealed off. Though one should not dismiss the fact that Kulaks were purposefully burning crops during a famine to force the Soviets to allow them to sell grain on the open market.

 

[ChristineES]

Stalin never systematically killed anyone to be quite honest. He killed many of the Old Bolsheviks, Military Officers, and some common citizens were rounded up in the purges as well but the large majority were diehard Bolsheviks. Old Revolutionaries are always the first to die when there is no more need for Revolutionary Terror just look at the French Revolution and many other modern revolutions.

That isn't to dismiss Stalin's crimes but it is dishonest to compare it to the systematic genocide the Nazis were carrying out. The closest the Soviets come to is the famine in the Ukraine which was already an issue from before the USSR was formed. It was merely agitated by forced collectivization, corruption through all stratas of Soviet bureaucracy, and Stalin's inability to recognize it was a serious issue. Once it was ascertained as a serious issue the Ukraine was sealed off. Though one should not dismiss the fact that Kulaks were purposefully burning crops during a famine to force the Soviets to allow them to sell grain on the open market.

I heard Stalin killed more people than Hitler on some show- 20/20, 60 Minutes, or whatever more than 30 years ago. I also heard some appalling stories of lining living people over graves, shooting them and then burying them without even making sure they were dead(makes it worse than just killing them).

It is all appalling what people are capable of doing to fellow human beings. Even in the USA, we had lynchings of people and horrible things like that.

 

[Dingbat]

I heard Stalin killed more people than Hitler on some show- 20/20, 60 Minutes, or whatever more than 30 years ago. I also heard some appalling stories of lining living people over graves, shooting them and then burying them without even making sure they were dead(makes it worse than just killing them).

It is all appalling what people are capable of doing to fellow human beings. Even in the USA, we had lynchings of people and horrible things like that.

Sounds like crap to be quite honest. It wouldn't be possible for the Soviets to kill more than Hitler without depopulating the USSR. People use the modern Russian population when making idiotic claims like that. Max I have heard is 1 million from reliable historians. One has to remember the Russians suffered massive casualties from the First World War, subsequent Russian Civil War, Invasion of Poland, Winter War, World War 2, famines throughout all those times, and Stalin's purges. The numbers don't add up when you look at the ludicrous numbers of 10+ million. Nor have I heard any stories about burying people alive. The Soviets were rather thorough with executions either hangings or firing squads and it didn't matter who you were from lowly peasant to Bolshevik Politburo member.

If anyone is actually interested in the history I would suggest Sheila Fitzpatrick's work her expertise is specifically on Stalin's reign.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It isn't a numbers game.
The Shoah is unique as a systematic effort to demonize, collect, and purge the world of a people.

 

[LuisDantas]

I was listening to a history program on the radio yesterday. One of the contributors said that in 1939 the entire continent of Europe was a hostile place for Jewish people. He said refugee ships were turned away from ports all over Europe and not only were European countries unwelcoming to Jewish refugees many countries beside Germany were putting Jewish people into camps.

The way I picked up history I always condidered the Holocaust a crime of the Nazi's. I'm wondering if I am mistaken - is it more accurate to consider the Holocaust as a European crime?

European at the very least. The European side of WW II was largely a sequel to WW I, which by itself was pretty much a crime of humanity out of inconsequential nationalism.

 

[Caladan]

The way I picked up history I always condidered the Holocaust a crime of the Nazi's. I'm wondering if I am mistaken - is it more accurate to consider the Holocaust as a European crime?

Various European governments collaborated with the Nazis and served as satellite states of the Third Reich. Jews were transported inside the countries of Europe into concentration and death camps in a well oiled bureaucratic system. Many bodies and governments had knowledge about a systematic extermination and rounding up of whole historical Jewish communities and did not intervene. Many other governments turned back ships loaded with Jewish refugees.
The Third Reich might have risen in Germany, but the ground was well prepared across the continent for such a large scale operation against Jews. centuries of anti Jewish sentiments and activities did not die out with the European enlightenment and the emancipation. The birth of modern Zionism for example was the direct result of exclusion, discrimination, and persecution of Jewish communities and individual Jews.
The 20th century saw decorated Jewish veterans of WWI being stripped of their honour and rights in Germany, Jewish officers (Dreyfus affair) being lynched by an anti-Semitic media for spying crimes they did not commit, and common Jews being exiled to gulags in Siberia supposedly for being political dissidents.

That is pretty much the story of my family in Poland. My grandfather was exiled to Siberia by the Russians for no justified reason, his family was turned over to the Germans by common Poles they grew up with, and murdered almost in its entirety in Sobibor death camp (according to our information).
My grandfather's key for survival was serving in a Polish fighting force under the British high command.

 

[sandandfoam]

Various European governments collaborated with the Nazis and served as satellite states of the Third Reich. Jews were transported inside the countries of Europe into concentration and death camps in a well oiled bureaucratic system. Many bodies and governments had knowledge about a systematic extermination and rounding up of whole historical Jewish communities and did not intervene. Many other governments turned back ships loaded with Jewish refugees.
The Third Reich might have risen in Germany, but the ground was well prepared across the continent for such a large scale operation against Jews. centuries of anti Jewish sentiments and activities did not die out with the European enlightenment and the emancipation. The birth of modern Zionism for example was the direct result of exclusion, discrimination, and persecution of Jewish communities and individual Jews.
The 20th century saw decorated Jewish veterans of WWI being stripped of their honour and rights in Germany, Jewish officers (Dreyfus affair) being lynched by an anti-Semitic media for spying crimes they did not commit, and common Jews being exiled to gulags in Siberia supposedly for being political dissidents.

That is pretty much the story of my family in Poland. My grandfather was exiled to Siberia by the Russians for no justified reason, his family was turned over to the Germans by common Poles they grew up with, and murdered almost in its entirety in Sobibor death camp (according to our information).
My grandfather's key for survival was serving in a Polish fighting force under the British high command.

I know there are many millions of personal stories in the Holocaust but each time I hear one I feel, I don't know what word to use, there's something crushing about it.

I've also just realised that I don't know how to respond. I'm glad your grandfather survived Dan and sorry that so many many others did not.

 

[Kerr]

I heard Stalin killed more people than Hitler on some show- 20/20, 60 Minutes, or whatever more than 30 years ago. I also heard some appalling stories of lining living people over graves, shooting them and then burying them without even making sure they were dead(makes it worse than just killing them).

It is all appalling what people are capable of doing to fellow human beings. Even in the USA, we had lynchings of people and horrible things like that.

I saw a documentary about what some nazis did in the camps. They took up an example where twins where literally sown together, back to back. The parents killed them because they couldnt stand their suffering.

I think Stalin killed more people then the nazis. But he also had more time. While I personally think the nazis where worse, I am not sure it matters that much. Both the USSR and Nazi-Germany where guilty of terrible crimes that should never be forgotten.

 

[Kerr]

I was listening to a history program on the radio yesterday. One of the contributors said that in 1939 the entire continent of Europe was a hostile place for Jewish people. He said refugee ships were turned away from ports all over Europe and not only were European countries unwelcoming to Jewish refugees many countries beside Germany were putting Jewish people into camps.

The way I picked up history I always condidered the Holocaust a crime of the Nazi's. I'm wondering if I am mistaken - is it more accurate to consider the Holocaust as a European crime?

If other countries helped the Holocaust then they where just as guilty as the Nazis.

 

[HonestJoe]

The Holocaust was a crime of the people who carried it out. That wasn't even all members of the Nazi party, government or military, let alone all Germans or all Europeans.

It is clear that the general discrimination against Jewish people (and for that matter, other target groups such as gypsies and homosexuals) prior and during WW2 contributed to both the Nazi's desire and ability to try to exterminate them. That's very much a human crime and one that is ongoing.

If anything, the Holocaust should act as a warning against labelling and condemning large, general groups of people like this. Blame individuals for what they do (or fail to do), not the groups they happen to be members of (or can be lumped in with).

 

[sandandfoam]

Blame individuals for what they do (or fail to do), not the groups they happen to be members of (or can be lumped in with).

There's a huge body of scientific literature that points in the opposite direction. Zimbardo is perhaps amongst the most prominent.

 

[savagewind]

If other countries helped the Holocaust then they where just as guilty as the Nazis.

Every power able to help but turned a blind eye is guilty. Is it true that the faith the size of a mustard seed can move a mountain? If it is so then the only souls not guilty imo are those that truly could not know what was happening and those souls that were struggling for their own life's daily necessities each day.