Should Men and Women be Segregated in Mosques?

[Shad]

I live here. All Australians are aware of these things.

That does not mean you see their pay checks

Australia's gender pay gap: why do women still earn less than men?

This source averages pay thus distorts data, does not compare worker to worker of the same job, lumps multiple jobs into the same category while ignoring those jobs are not the same nor pay the same, nor does it look at job type itself. Exactly what I expected. Manipulation of data. I

Top-tier female managers earn, on average, 26.5% less than their male counterparts, with nearly $40,000 of that difference coming from additional remuneration, including bonuses.

What type of manager? At what type of business? Doing what type of work? In what industry?

A manager at McDonald's is going to get less than a manager at a bank. Ergo averaging distorts data.

Even sectors that have a predominantly female workforce such as preschool and early childhood education have a significant pay gap. According to the WGEA, women in the preschool sector are paid on average 31.9% less than men, compared with a national gender pay gap of 15.3%.

National averages does not mean a local school must pay those wages. Ergo averaging distorts data.

In Wilkinson’s industry, television broadcasting, which is 47% female overall but 100% male at the CEO level, the full-time gender pay gap is 21.6%.

No data provided.

You read an article, nothing more. You didn't look at any study nor data.

 

[stvdv]

I heard an Imam say, that it is difficult for Muslim men to control their sex urge, hence women better dress proper

Yeah, I realise that you didn't necessarily stand behind said quote.

That is a big understatement. This quote just tells the world that Muslim men have totally no self control, which is the first step becoming human
I was curious if all Muslims think like these Imams, or that there were some Muslims who dared/wanted to go against these Imams.
This is one of the reason that I would never take a commentary of an Imam serious, if he still uses such a lame excuse

I just like to point it out explicitly whenever I encounter this pathetic excuse.
I hear it frequently. In every debate about hijabs, nikaabs, burka's, etc... The first reason they say is "because we respect the woman and value her mind over her flesh" - which sounds nice on paper.
When continuing the questioning, it turns out that it's to "protect the women from pedators".
When continuing the questioning, it turns out that "men have nasty urges and women should cover up as to not entice the men".

In the year 700 there were many barbarians, so this quote might have been applicable, as they had no self control
But in the year 2020 I think Muslim men using such quotes (esp. Imams) should be ashamed of themselves or admit they are spiritual point zero.

Always, without exception, it ends up in a cruel situation where you actually have grounds to blame the women when they get raped. It's not at all surprising to me that the vast majority of cases where rape victims are actually being seen as guilty (for "provoking" the rape) to some extent, are encountered in culture that tend to put women in bags as opposed to telling the men to keep it in their pants and engage in some basic self-control and learn some basic manners.

Agreed !

 

[stvdv]

So should women and men remain segregated in mosques in this modern age?

There is freedom of Religion, so the Religious institute is free to create rules as it likes (within the Law)

I see only 1 Muslim woman object, so it seems to me that the majority Muslim men and Muslim women agree to this
If 99% Muslims are happy with this, there can't be anything wrong with it can there? They all think alike

Jesus walking on water is a very small miracle, compared to "all Muslims agree on this" I think

 

[Shad]

There is freedom of Religion, so the Religious institute is free to create rules as it likes (within the Law)

I see only 1 Muslim woman object, so it seems to me that the majority Muslim men and Muslim women agree to this
If 99% Muslims are happy with this, there can't be anything wrong with it can there? They all think alike

Heard of indoctrination?

Tyranny of the majority does not make something right.

 

[stvdv]

Heard of indoctrination?

Tyranny of the majority does not make something right.

You missed my below line probably:
Jesus walking on water is a very small miracle, compared to "all Muslims agree on this" I think

 

[Shad]

You missed my below line probably:
Jesus walking on water is a very small miracle, compared to "all Muslims agree on this" I think

No I was not addressing it nor consider the stat even real.

 

[stvdv]

No I was not addressing it nor consider the stat even real.

Then I don't understand why you asked me "never heard of indoctrination?"

 

[Shad]

Then I don't understand why you asked me "never heard of indoctrination?"

People can be indoctrinated to thinking a horrible idea is a good one. So even if 99% agree to something that does not make it right. It is poor logic.

 

[stvdv]

People can be indoctrinated to thinking a horrible idea is a good one. So even if 99% agree to something that does not make it right. It is poor logic.

Hence my final line ...

 

[Shad]

Hence my final line ...

My point was never about getting anyone to agree to anything or disagreeing.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Life changes behind closed doors. The outside show of friendliness and tolerance can be switched off like a light bulb when a person goes home. I don't see any relationship between sitting arrangements at houses of worship, and that home.

Maybe I'm jaded. I'm rarely privy to it but I have been ... enough to know not to jump to any conclusions about anybody based on outward public show. Hindu temples have informal segregation as well. Everyone is segregated from everyone else, in a sense, because even in a crowded temple, the personal worship between deity and individual is intense.

I've met outwardly friendly people who were abusive at home, and vice versa.

So I'm not a Muslim, and have no need to comment on the idea of gender segregation being right or wrong.

There are many circumstances where there is gender segregation and appropriate to do so. Changing rooms are an obvious example. Many of the schools in New Zealand are single sex rather than coeducational. So a religion that segregates its men and women isn’t necessarily a completely bad thing. I suppose we need to consider traditions and what is best moving ahead in the twenty first century. I’m interested to explore a faith community that isn’t my own and better understand its values and practices.

 

[Vinayaka]

T

There are many circumstances where there is gender segregation and appropriate to do so. Changing rooms are an obvious example. Many of the schools in New Zealand are single sex rather than coeducational. So a religion that segregates its men and women isn’t necessarily a completely bad thing. I suppose we need to consider traditions and what is best moving ahead in the twenty first century. I’m interested to explore a faith community that isn’t my own and better understand its values and practices.

It would be interesting to me to see 3 areas in a mosque ... male, female, and mixed for those who choose to be mixed. Lots of countries have segregated schools. In Mauritius it was mixed until 6th grade, then segregated for 7 - 12. That made some sense to me, as I taught in a mixed school, and hormones rules the waves after puberty. Here segregation is only in some private schools.

I won't jump to conclusions based on some preconceived idea of what's right or wrong in this regard. I see 'it's a bad thing' all over this one, from people without sufficient knowledge to judge. That's the scary thing to me.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I think in such a situation it’s up to those involved to consult about and decide upon what they would like to do maintaining unity and harmony all along. It is not for us to tell another culture what we think they should do.

Only in things like genocide or oppression do I feel interference is warranted but in cultural matters who are we to preach to others how they should live?

Promoting and supporting womens rights is fine as long as the objective is to maintain unity between the sexes not turn one against the other.

I mostly agree. However I do wonder if laws and practices within some Islamic communities oppress women. Afghanistan under the Taliban was a clear example. Segregation of men and women in Mosques within both our countries I’m not so sure. This thread for me is about better understanding the culture and values of Muslims, not about preaching.

 

[Dawnofhope]

There is freedom of Religion, so the Religious institute is free to create rules as it likes (within the Law)

I see only 1 Muslim woman object, so it seems to me that the majority Muslim men and Muslim women agree to this
If 99% Muslims are happy with this, there can't be anything wrong with it can there? They all think alike

Jesus walking on water is a very small miracle, compared to "all Muslims agree on this" I think

I do wonder how Muslims feel and It’s unfortunate we don’t have more to comment. There are obviously women that find the practice archaic and oppressive but I can’t find any quantitative data. It wouldn’t surprise me if there was a significant difference between men and women’s perspectives on this issue. I doubt if there’s unanimous agreement and suspect it’s hugely difficult to challenge the status quo as the author of the paper cited in the OP has done.

 

[Vinayaka]

I mostly agree. However I do wonder if laws and practices within some Islamic communities oppress women. Afghanistan under the Taliban was a clear example. Segregation of men and women in Mosques within both our countries I’m not so sure. This thread for me is about better understanding the culture and values of Muslims, not about preaching.

I've seen chauvinistic individuals in many, if not all cultures and groups. To what degree it exists in any group is open for debate. Then what, if anything we can do to accelerate change is the question, for me, anyway.

 

[SugarOcean]

Seems kinda anti-woman.

Ya think?
Sharia law is very hostile to women. There are women, and amazingly Christian women, who are Muslim and living in America. That's the key word there. Living as a Muslim female in America.
Were they to journey to Iran, for example, they'd likely think differently about their position in the faith they hold. Especially the Christian converts.

There are Christian churches in America that segregate their congregations. One I know of is in Philadelphia PA. The First Church of our Lord Jesus Christ segregates by gender. The pastor says it is so that they aren't distracted by one another so as to pay close attention to the word.
Islam isn't a political ideology/clad as a religion , that is greatly fond of change.

So no, I don't think they should integrate in mosques. Because if they once were that and are now segregated it isn't likely a consensus of opinion is going to change that. And it certainly won't through a consensus of atheists and non-Muslims.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I've seen chauvinistic individuals in many, if not all cultures and groups. To what degree it exists in any group is open for debate. Then what, if anything we can do to accelerate change is the question, for me, anyway.

The culture in the profession of medicine used to be very male dominated, hierarchical and chauvinistic. It went through a major shift round the late 80s/early 90s after a professor of gynaecology decided to conduct an experimental approach to the treatment of cervical cancer that led to many women dying unnecessarily. This doctor believed the early stages of cancer didn’t need to be treated and so these unfortunate women progressed to metastatic cancer. There was no informed consent and none of the patients knew they were part of a clinical trial. Ethics committees for such experiments were yet to be widely established. It was all examined through a judicial review called the Cartwright inquiry and many changes in the practice of medicine and medical ethics changed for the better.

Cartwright Inquiry - Wikipedia

I strongly suspect the culture in Islam in many parts of the world needs reform. Christianity in many places has been through such a process as has my faith. I’m sure there’s similar conversations going on within Hinduism.

 

[Vinayaka]

I strongly suspect the culture in Islam in many parts of the world needs reform. Christianity in many places has been through such a process as has my faith. I’m sure there’s similar conversations going on within Hinduism.

Reform how? The problem I see with reform from an outsider's view is that it remains egocentric ... reform to the way I think it should be. I'd prefer to work on my own egocentric views. At least I might get somewhere. Who am I to judge something needs reforming? For proselytising faiths, 'reform' means convert to my way.

As you might expect, I voted 'not for me to judge' in your poll. But others are free to judge all they want to. "Islam ... bad. Us ... good."

 

[stvdv]

My point was never about getting anyone to agree to anything or disagreeing.

That's fine with me, but you did miss my point, hence I explained

 

[stvdv]

Ya think?
Sharia law is very hostile to women.

If that is a fact, then it's not so strange that Geert Wilders is so fanatical on this subject

But is that a fact? I met a Muslim woman from Iran who almost bit of my head, when I asked that question. So you might be right, at least I won't question her again about this. She told me "You never lived there, so you don't know" ... she was right there.

And if Sharia law is very hostile to women, then the Muslim men must be monsters (being hostile to all women). Hard to believe though (in this age)

Maybe I should visit the Middle East (for a few years), then I might maybe know what is really happening

What I see of the Dutch Muslims I meet seems nice.