1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Should Men and Women be Segregated in Mosques?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by adrian009, Aug 3, 2019.

?
  1. Yes

    13.0%
  2. No

    47.8%
  3. I don't know

    8.7%
  4. Its not for me to comment as I'm not a Muslim

    26.1%
  5. This poll doesn't reflect my thinking

    4.3%
  1. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    7,915
    Ratings:
    +5,854
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Gender segregation exists in most Mosques in the world today where women and men are in seperate spaces or rooms in a Mosque. In some places women can't attend mosques at all.

    This has not always been the case and an interesting paper by Nevin Reda, a Muslim woman and Canadian academic explores gender segregation in Mosques in a paper titled: 'Women in the Mosque:Historical Perspectives on Segregation'

    https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/46320764/reda-womeninmosque_1_.pdf?response-content-disposition=inline; filename=Women_in_the_Mosque_Historical_Perspect.pdf&X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=AKIAIWOWYYGZ2Y53UL3A/20190803/us-east-1/s3/aws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20190803T052540Z&X-Amz-Expires=3600&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Signature=ca4126555a669a0deda408a920c2e59c9e00370bfed53afb09d24f8764f4989f

    Nevin Reda - WISE Muslim Women

    Her paper deals with the issue of women’s full or partial access to the mosque from 610 - 925 AD. This period is divided into two time frames. The first, 610 - 634 AD, consists mainly of the time in which the Prophet Muhammad was active in Mecca and Medina. The second, 634 - 925 AD, is the period beginning with Umar’s reign to the time when the Hadith literature was written down and set into the well-known compilations.

    Nevin Reda argues the Quran is used as a primary source for the first period, whereas the Hadith
    literature is used as a primary source for the second period.

    From the primary sources available for the first period, there does not appear to be any evidence of segregation; rather the evidence indicates that women had full access to the mosque. In the second period, three trends appear: a pro-segregation trend, an anti-segregation trend, and a trend that sought to prohibit women from going to the mosque altogether.

    The Quranic verses which address the interaction of men and women in the social context include:

    Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and to be mindful of their chastity: this will be most conducive to their purity – (and,) verily, Allah is aware of all that they do. And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and to be mindful of their chastity, and not to display their charms beyond what may be apparent thereof; hence let them draw their veils over their bosoms and do not show their adornments except to their husbands or their fathers or their husbands' fathers or their sons or their husbands' sons or their brothers or their brothers' sons or their sisters' sons or their women or what their right hands possess or male servants free of sexual desires or those children who never knows the private things of women; and do not stamp their feet so that it may show their hidden adornments; and repent towards God collectively O believers so that you may succeed.

    Qur'an, Sura 24 (An-Nur), ayat 27-31[10]

    O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to bring down over themselves [part] of their outer garments. That is more suitable that they will be known and not be abused. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful.

    Qur'an, Sura 33 (Al-Ahzab), ayat 59[11]

    So should women and men remain segregated in mosques in this modern age? Is it any business of non-Muslims whether they do or they don't? Isn't it for Muslims to decide themselves?
     
    • Like Like x 2
  2. LiveBetterLife

    LiveBetterLife Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2019
    Messages:
    317
    Ratings:
    +81
    Seems kinda anti-woman.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  3. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2018
    Messages:
    4,219
    Ratings:
    +2,037
    I would have to dig this out, but I think when Muhammad PBUH was leading prayers, the tent was round and men and women were in it together with men on one side and women on the other. I think that in Saudi Arabia, women are not allowed in Mosque.
     
  4. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    7,915
    Ratings:
    +5,854
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    I couldn't find anything specific to Saudi Aarabia in regards to not being able to attend Mosques at all. I suspect the issue is when no provision is made for women to attend in a special partitioned area, then women can't attend a Mosque at all.

    Many mosques today put the women behind a barrier or partition or in another room. Mosques in South and Southeast Asia put men and women in separate rooms, as the divisions were built into them centuries ago. In nearly two-thirds of American mosques, women pray behind partitions or in separate areas, not in the main prayer hall; some mosques do not admit women at all due to the lack of space and the fact that some prayers, such as the Friday Jumuʻah, are mandatory for men but optional for women. Although there are sections exclusively for women and children, the Grand Mosque in Mecca is desegregated.


    Islam and gender segregation - Wikipedia

    I thought the observation of a school teacher who visited Saudi Arabia for seven months was interesting:

    British-born Muslim author Ed Husain argues that rather than keeping sexual desires under check, gender segregation creates "pent-up sexual frustration which expressed itself in the unhealthiest ways," and leads young people to "see the opposite gender only as sex objects." [37] While working in Saudi Arabia for seven months as an English teacher, the Arabic-speaking Husain was surprised to find that despite compulsory gender segregation and full hijab, Saudi men were much less modest and more predatory towards women than men in other countries he had lived. In Saudi – unlike in Britain, or the more secular Syrian Arab Republic – students commonly downloaded hardcore pornography off the internet in violation of school rules. Despite the modest dress of his wife – who "out of respect for local custom, ... wore the long black abaya and covered her hair in a black scarf" – she was on two occasions "accosted by passing Saudi youths from their cars. ... In supermarkets I only had to be away from [my wife] for five minutes and Saudi men would hiss or whisper obscenities as they walked past." Discussions with local women at the British Council indicated that her experience was far from unique.[37]
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  5. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2018
    Messages:
    4,219
    Ratings:
    +2,037
    I have seen it where we could not even see the speaker. Other places we were in the same room but separated by a wall. I am pleased to not attend a Masjid at all.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  6. Eddi

    Eddi Mark 5:9

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2016
    Messages:
    505
    Ratings:
    +287
    Religion:
    Christian
    I'm not a Moslem

    So it's nothing to do with me...
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Wasp

    Wasp Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2019
    Messages:
    838
    Ratings:
    +195
    Why would you say that?
     
  8. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    12,862
    Ratings:
    +6,174
    Religion:
    None
    Nobody should go in there.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  9. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    4,934
    Ratings:
    +2,666
    Religion:
    Sanathana Dharma [The Eternal Religion]
    IMO all are supposed to follow the Law of the country. So it might be different depending on the country the Mosque is in:
    If the Law in one country tells that men and women should be segregated in Mosques, then so be it
    If the Law in another country tells that men and women should be able to go in both, then so be it
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  10. Shad

    Shad Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2014
    Messages:
    13,887
    Ratings:
    +3,142
    Religion:
    Theological noncognitivist
    They can if they want. However this does not mean I will not think it is backwards nor will I never use it to argue any immigrant that believes in segregation should denied immigration.
     
  11. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
    Messages:
    54,703
    Ratings:
    +13,320
    Religion:
    None (atheist)
    Depends what you mean by "should."

    - is the practice discriminatory? Yes.
    - is it authentically Islamic? Dunno... and it's not my place to say.
     
  12. Shad

    Shad Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2014
    Messages:
    13,887
    Ratings:
    +3,142
    Religion:
    Theological noncognitivist
    Most Western nations avoid conflict as it is considered a minor issue that the state should avoid entangling itself in. Hence why the states have issues calling a spade a spade.

    Can't upset a voting bloc.
     
  13. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2018
    Messages:
    4,219
    Ratings:
    +2,037

    Not surprising. I was once told by a Saudi College student that was staying with me that only about 27% of Saudis are religious, and Alcoholism is a huge problem. The harassment of Women is huge. KSA likes to make people think that they are the center of Sunni Islam, but it is actually Egypt. Islam has huge problems.

    Personally, I am Muslim, but I practice it privately. I do not try to wear abaya when bike riding. No Muslim would say that I am a good Muslim. So What?
     
  14. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2018
    Messages:
    4,219
    Ratings:
    +2,037
    I read it. It may have changed.
     
  15. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    4,934
    Ratings:
    +2,666
    Religion:
    Sanathana Dharma [The Eternal Religion]
    I am not surprised that Islam has huge problems. Church has huge problems also. Both have to face reality after following dogma for centuries
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    4,934
    Ratings:
    +2,666
    Religion:
    Sanathana Dharma [The Eternal Religion]
    That is quite a big claim.

    What does this mean?
    They don't tell you are a good Muslim? They tell you are "not a good Muslim"? They disapprove but say nothing?
    Or is it in Islam the same as with some in Christianity who claim "Not 1 human is without sin", so not 1 human is a good Christian (or Muslim)?

    I know 1 Muslim woman who rides a bike without abaya. I am quite sure she would not use that one against you. Neither would I, by the way.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  17. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2012
    Messages:
    15,756
    Ratings:
    +1,707
    It is not a social issue, the matter is that G-d is to accept the prayers of the believers and in what manner He wants the believers to be in the mosques while praying. Right, please?

    Regards
     
  18. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2018
    Messages:
    4,219
    Ratings:
    +2,037
    If it weren't for humans, both religions would be ideal.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2012
    Messages:
    15,756
    Ratings:
    +1,707
    Yet the women and men were segregated? Right, please?
    Else the women could be praying separately, leading with a women Imam.
    The women were not enjoined to pray in the mosque, they could pray at homes. Men are enjoined to pray in the mosque in congregation.

    Regards
     
  20. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2012
    Messages:
    15,756
    Ratings:
    +1,707
    Saudi Arabia is a state, its policies don't necessarily represent Islam/Quran/Muhammad.

    Regards
     
Loading...