Should Men and Women be Segregated in Mosques?

[TagliatelliMonster]

In the year 700 there were many barbarians, so this quote might have been applicable, as they had no self control

I agree, from a human perspective.
But there's the catch.... One needs to view this from an islamic perspective. This "message" is supposed to come from the all powerfull, all knowing ruler of the universe.

I'ld expect the all knowing, all benevolent ruler of the universe to be smart and bold enough to just tell the men to keep it in their pants....

So in this, I see clear evidence (like in the other abrahamic religions) that it is the work of men, not the work of all knowing benevolent beings. It clearly is a text dreamed up by men in a society ruled by men, reflecting the barbaric morals and practices of the cultures there were dreamed up in.

Exactly what I would expect form a religion invented by men.

But in the year 2020 I think Muslim men using such quotes (esp. Imams) should be ashamed of themselves or admit they are spiritual point zero.

Indeed.
And in any year, I think the all knowing benevolent ruler of the universe should be even more ashamed for saying anything like that or something even only remotely close to it.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You missed my below line probably:
Jesus walking on water is a very small miracle, compared to "all Muslims agree on this" I think

However, the statement "all muslims agree on this", is not a true statement.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

There are many circumstances where there is gender segregation and appropriate to do so. Changing rooms are an obvious example. Many of the schools in New Zealand are single sex rather than coeducational. So a religion that segregates its men and women isn’t necessarily a completely bad thing. I suppose we need to consider traditions and what is best moving ahead in the twenty first century. I’m interested to explore a faith community that isn’t my own and better understand its values and practices.

The underlying reasoning for segregation, is what determines if it is appropriate or not.

And I think you'll find that the reasoning for segregation of sexes in islamic cultures, is not at all comparable to why we segregate public bathrooms or changing rooms.

 

[stvdv]

Indeed.
And in any year, I think the all knowing benevolent ruler of the universe should be even more ashamed for saying anything like that or something even only remotely close to it.

I was not there when God said it. I do know that it was a human hearing it and writing it down, even if human was a prophet I believe if there has been made a mistake even the Prophet would agree it must have been him and not this, as you call it, omnibenevolent being.

 

[stvdv]

However, the statement "all muslims agree on this", is not a true statement.

I never said it is a true statement, I just said "it would have been a bigger miracle than Jesus walking on water IMHO".

 

[Dan Mellis]

Gender segregation exists in most Mosques in the world today where women and men are in seperate spaces or rooms in a Mosque. In some places women can't attend mosques at all.

This has not always been the case and an interesting paper by Nevin Reda, a Muslim woman and Canadian academic explores gender segregation in Mosques in a paper titled: 'Women in the Mosque:Historical Perspectives on Segregation'

https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/46320764/reda-womeninmosque_1_.pdf?response-content-disposition=inline; filename=Women_in_the_Mosque_Historical_Perspect.pdf&X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=AKIAIWOWYYGZ2Y53UL3A/20190803/us-east-1/s3/aws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20190803T052540Z&X-Amz-Expires=3600&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Signature=ca4126555a669a0deda408a920c2e59c9e00370bfed53afb09d24f8764f4989f

Nevin Reda - WISE Muslim Women

Her paper deals with the issue of women’s full or partial access to the mosque from 610 - 925 AD. This period is divided into two time frames. The first, 610 - 634 AD, consists mainly of the time in which the Prophet Muhammad was active in Mecca and Medina. The second, 634 - 925 AD, is the period beginning with Umar’s reign to the time when the Hadith literature was written down and set into the well-known compilations.

Nevin Reda argues the Quran is used as a primary source for the first period, whereas the Hadith
literature is used as a primary source for the second period.

From the primary sources available for the first period, there does not appear to be any evidence of segregation; rather the evidence indicates that women had full access to the mosque. In the second period, three trends appear: a pro-segregation trend, an anti-segregation trend, and a trend that sought to prohibit women from going to the mosque altogether.

The Quranic verses which address the interaction of men and women in the social context include:

Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and to be mindful of their chastity: this will be most conducive to their purity – (and,) verily, Allah is aware of all that they do. And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and to be mindful of their chastity, and not to display their charms beyond what may be apparent thereof; hence let them draw their veils over their bosoms and do not show their adornments except to their husbands or their fathers or their husbands' fathers or their sons or their husbands' sons or their brothers or their brothers' sons or their sisters' sons or their women or what their right hands possess or male servants free of sexual desires or those children who never knows the private things of women; and do not stamp their feet so that it may show their hidden adornments; and repent towards God collectively O believers so that you may succeed.

Qur'an, Sura 24 (An-Nur), ayat 27-31[10]

O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to bring down over themselves [part] of their outer garments. That is more suitable that they will be known and not be abused. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful.

Qur'an, Sura 33 (Al-Ahzab), ayat 59[11]

So should women and men remain segregated in mosques in this modern age? Is it any business of non-Muslims whether they do or they don't? Isn't it for Muslims to decide themselves?

I'm not a Muslim, but it is for me to comment.

Sexist, racist, homophobic and other bigoted views harm us all - we all have a responsibility to call it out when we see it. Simply hiding behind faith or tradition doesn't cut it.

Religiously justified bigotry is no different than any other form of bigotry, therefore it should be treated with the same contempt.

 

[Wasp]

I'm not a Muslim, but it is for me to comment.

Sexist, racist, homophobic and other bigoted views harm us all - we all have a responsibility to call it out when we see it. Simply hiding behind faith or tradition doesn't cut it.

Religiously justified bigotry is no different than any other form of bigotry, therefore it should be treated with the same contempt.

Isn't this ^ a kind of bigotry?

 

[Dan Mellis]

Isn't this ^ a kind of bigotry?

I'd argue that it isn't. I don't hate religion or religious people, but I am strongly opposed to harm caused by religion (or any other flawed logic).

No, a bigoted version of this would be "no, all mosques should be closed and all religion should be banned". I'm all for mosques and religion, but not when it causes harm to others.

 

[Wasp]

I'd argue that it isn't. I don't hate religion or religious people, but I am strongly opposed to harm caused by religion (or any other flawed logic).

No, a bigoted version of this would be "no, all mosques should be closed and all religion should be banned". I'm all for mosques and religion, but not when it causes harm to others.

That doesn't make any sense. But it's okay. Most anti-religious people don't admit being anti-religion. I'm not sure why.

 

[stvdv]

I'm not a Muslim, but it is for me to comment.

Sexist, racist, homophobic and other bigoted views harm us all - we all have a responsibility to call it out when we see it. Simply hiding behind faith or tradition doesn't cut it.

Religiously justified bigotry is no different than any other form of bigotry, therefore it should be treated with the same contempt.

I agree. Good point.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I mostly agree. However I do wonder if laws and practices within some Islamic communities oppress women. Afghanistan under the Taliban was a clear example. Segregation of men and women in Mosques within both our countries I’m not so sure. This thread for me is about better understanding the culture and values of Muslims, not about preaching.

Hi Adrian!

I think that uninformed people forget that Islam did a lot for women’s rights when it initially banned infanticide where if the first born were a girl it was a tradition then to bury her alive in the sand.

There are also verses in the Quran aimed at preserving the dignity and nobility of women.

 

[stvdv]

I'd argue that it isn't. I don't hate religion or religious people, but I am strongly opposed to harm caused by religion (or any other flawed logic).

No, a bigoted version of this would be "no, all mosques should be closed and all religion should be banned". I'm all for mosques and religion, but not when it causes harm to others.

I agree. This argument I often see (as a last resort some people use), trying to defend their bad habits.

Example: Someone belittles another, who tells him "you are intolerant and belittling". As a reply he says "now you are intolerant to me".
Example: Someone is killing another, who tells him "you are intolerant and killing me". As a reply he says "now you are intolerant to me".

Crazy argument. I gave up explaining to them. Once they have this mind-set, I have seen it is almost impossible to get rid of, for them
They don't see, that they argue that we should agree with them being violent to us (even killing us)
I have seen many times that arrogant narcissists show this behavior
Seems to me, they lost all common sense

 

[Shad]

That's fine with me, but you did miss my point, hence I explained

I never considered the point that relevant

 

[Dan Mellis]

Hi Adrian!

I think that uninformed people forget that Islam did a lot for women’s rights when it initially banned infanticide where if the first born were a girl it was a tradition then to bury her alive in the sand.

There are also verses in the Quran aimed at preserving the dignity and nobility of women.

Yep, and Muhammad married a 9 year old. Let's not cherry pick.

 

[stvdv]

I never considered the point that relevant

Yes, that was quite clear to me

 

[Shad]

Yes, that was quite clear to me

Sorry I made a double post. I was going through my alerts responding as I go.

 

[Muffled]

Gender segregation exists in most Mosques in the world today where women and men are in seperate spaces or rooms in a Mosque. In some places women can't attend mosques at all.

This has not always been the case and an interesting paper by Nevin Reda, a Muslim woman and Canadian academic explores gender segregation in Mosques in a paper titled: 'Women in the Mosque:Historical Perspectives on Segregation'

https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/46320764/reda-womeninmosque_1_.pdf?response-content-disposition=inline; filename=Women_in_the_Mosque_Historical_Perspect.pdf&X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=AKIAIWOWYYGZ2Y53UL3A/20190803/us-east-1/s3/aws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20190803T052540Z&X-Amz-Expires=3600&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Signature=ca4126555a669a0deda408a920c2e59c9e00370bfed53afb09d24f8764f4989f

Nevin Reda - WISE Muslim Women

Her paper deals with the issue of women’s full or partial access to the mosque from 610 - 925 AD. This period is divided into two time frames. The first, 610 - 634 AD, consists mainly of the time in which the Prophet Muhammad was active in Mecca and Medina. The second, 634 - 925 AD, is the period beginning with Umar’s reign to the time when the Hadith literature was written down and set into the well-known compilations.

Nevin Reda argues the Quran is used as a primary source for the first period, whereas the Hadith
literature is used as a primary source for the second period.

From the primary sources available for the first period, there does not appear to be any evidence of segregation; rather the evidence indicates that women had full access to the mosque. In the second period, three trends appear: a pro-segregation trend, an anti-segregation trend, and a trend that sought to prohibit women from going to the mosque altogether.

The Quranic verses which address the interaction of men and women in the social context include:

Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and to be mindful of their chastity: this will be most conducive to their purity – (and,) verily, Allah is aware of all that they do. And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and to be mindful of their chastity, and not to display their charms beyond what may be apparent thereof; hence let them draw their veils over their bosoms and do not show their adornments except to their husbands or their fathers or their husbands' fathers or their sons or their husbands' sons or their brothers or their brothers' sons or their sisters' sons or their women or what their right hands possess or male servants free of sexual desires or those children who never knows the private things of women; and do not stamp their feet so that it may show their hidden adornments; and repent towards God collectively O believers so that you may succeed.

Qur'an, Sura 24 (An-Nur), ayat 27-31[10]

O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to bring down over themselves [part] of their outer garments. That is more suitable that they will be known and not be abused. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful.

Qur'an, Sura 33 (Al-Ahzab), ayat 59[11]

So should women and men remain segregated in mosques in this modern age? Is it any business of non-Muslims whether they do or they don't? Isn't it for Muslims to decide themselves?

From what I have seen from a Friday prayer meeting, thee isn't anything gender related going on.

 

[Muffled]

IMO all are supposed to follow the Law of the country. So it might be different depending on the country the Mosque is in:
If the Law in one country tells that men and women should be segregated in Mosques, then so be it
If the Law in another country tells that men and women should be able to go in both, then so be it

I believe I was once invited to a Bible study by a group that had girls in it. When I attended I found the boys separated from the girls. Since I was less interested in the bible than I was in girls. The fact that there wren't any distracted me from the teaching and eventually I stopped going.

 

[Muffled]

They can if they want. However this does not mean I will not think it is backwards nor will I never use it to argue any immigrant that believes in segregation should denied immigration.

I believe smehow a religious litmus test does not fit in with the concepts in the Bill of Rights.

 

[Shad]

I believe smehow a religious litmus test does not fit in with the concepts in the Bill of Rights.

That does not apply to people outside the US. Hence why I can not sue Canada over breaching 2a. My point does not prohibit it. It just denies immigration claims based on importing backwards ideas. We have plenty already here.