Sex Work Marches Towards Legality

[PureX]

This is hardly 'the next step of commoditization' though. Sex has been a 'saleable' commodity, for better or worse, throughout history. I'm on to pot American exceptionalism as much as the next guy, but this isn't an American issue.

Rape and murder have been a part of the human condition throughout history, and all over the world, also. And yet we still TRY to stop it by passing laws and punishing those who commit such crimes. In fact, it's exactly because these behaviors exist that we make those laws and enforce them. Some human behaviors need to be considered and treated as a crime in a civil society. And prostitution is one of them.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You could have prostituted yourself that summer. But instead you chose to lay sod. So clearly, you already know the difference.

I doubt if I could have prostituted myself if I wanted to. Bad example.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Rape and murder have been a part of the human condition throughout history, and all over the world, also. And yet we still TRY to stop it by passing laws and punishing those who commit such crimes. In fact, it's exactly because these behaviors exist that we make those laws and enforce them. Some human behaviors need to be considered and treated as a crime in a civil society. And prostitution is one of them.

Your morals might need a bit of a tune up. There is a clear moral reason why rape and murder are illegal. The same reason does not apply to prostitution.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

You did what you had to do to survive, while other people used your circumstances to exploit and abuse you for their own pleasure. This is why it should remain illegal. It's also why we should not allow our fellow humans to be put in that kind of raw survival circumstance. The whole situation was being fueled and enabled by our acceptance of greed and selfishness as virtues. By our absurd idea that commerce and exploitation are the same thing.

Well, as I said, I've lived it and don't share your view. What's your experience been?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Well, as I said, I've lived it and don't share your view. What's your experience been?

I agree. I have not been through it but still am a very close friend to one that has. I have not judged her for her past. I only tried to help her and my housemate's son.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Prostitution is, indeed, a problem, but most of it's problematic effects are artifacts of it's illegality.
Why can't it be licensed and regulated like any other business?

There was a case in Canada a few years ago that addressed this.

Canada - like various US states, IIRC - never actually legally prohibited prostitution itself. Instead, they made a bunch of things around prostitution illegal: solicitation, keeping a "bawdy house," living off the avails of prostitution, etc.

IIRC in the early 2000s, there was a criminal case involving a brothel in Toronto: the madam of the brothel was charged with keeping a "bawdy house" and her security staff were charged with living off the avails of prostitution.

The madam successfully argued that because prostitution itself was legal, and because various Canadian laws entitle workers to a safe workplace, she had the legal right to take measures to keep her staff safe, including maintaining a safe space where customers could be screened and any incidents could be responded to quickly (i.e. run a brothel), and hire staff responsible for maintaining security (i.e. people who would be living off the avails of prostitution).

In the end, she got a number of "crimes" around prostitution struck down, and prostitution is now fully legal in Canada... though subject to restrictions like other businesses (e.g. you can only open a brothel in places where the zoning allows it).

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I doubt if I could have prostituted myself if I wanted to. Bad example.

Not to a woman, maybe. Guys will **** anything, though.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Well, what might you have suggested? I had nobody in the world to help me -- remember, no family, no nothing.And while there might have been agencies I could turn to, do you think that with nobody to talk to and no real knowledge of the world I knew where to find them? Would starving or freezing to death really have been the better option?

I'm sorry you went through that. This isn't rare among gay men. A friend from high school, who was gay, whored himself out to older men for a place to stay and ended up with HIV due to to it. It's a huge problem with trans women, too.

 

[Revoltingest]

Rape and murder have been a part of the human condition throughout history, and all over the world, also. And yet we still TRY to stop it by passing laws and punishing those who commit such crimes. In fact, it's exactly because these behaviors exist that we make those laws and enforce them. Some human behaviors need to be considered and treated as a crime in a civil society. And prostitution is one of them.

So if Bob says to Sally...
"I'll give you $10 for some whoopee."
Sally agrees, & Bob pays for the service.

You might like to see one or both rot in prison
for decades because it's the same as rape.
Ruin their lives. Impose the burden on taxpayers.
Create oppression, fear, & woe in society.
I find such a value to be utterly heinous....evil.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

So if Bob says to Sally...
"I'll give you $10 for some whoopee."
Sally agrees, & Bob pays for the service.

You might like to see one or both rot in prison
for decades because it's the same as rape.
Ruin their lives. Impose the burden on taxpayers.
Create oppression, fear, & woe in society.
I find such a value to be utterly heinous....evil.

That's not what people have in mind when it comes to prostitution and that's rarely the case, anyway.

 

[Revoltingest]

That's not what people have in mind when it comes to prostitution and that's rarely the case, anyway.

The poster appeared to equate prostitution with rape.
I addressed that view.
In discussions with fundies & feminists, I've found it oddly common.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The poster appeared to equate prostitution with rape.
I addressed that view.
In discussions with fundies & feminists, I've found it oddly common.

That's because it often is a type of sexual assault or at least a degrading experience. I think the different sides are thinking about different things to an extent and not on the same page.

 

[Revoltingest]

That's because it often is a type of sexual assault or at least a degrading experience. I think the different sides are thinking about different things to an extent and not on the same page.

Something "often" should not be used to overgeneralize.
I loathe people erasing important distinctions for the
bogus agenda of making 2 different things be the same.
This up-is-down black-is-white crappola burns me bacon!

 

[Subduction Zone]

That's because it often is a type of sexual assault or at least a degrading experience. I think the different sides are thinking about different things to an extent and not on the same page.

I would not use the word "often". Sometimes, yes, but that does not appear to be the norm.

By the way, if an underaged kid is prostituting him or herself then I would change it to "always" since the age of consent is a very real thing to me when it comes to consent.-

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I would not use the word "often". Sometimes, yes, but that does not appear to be the norm.

By the way, if an underaged kid is prostituting him or herself then I would change it to "always" since the age of consent is a very real thing to me when it comes to consent.-

It is the norm. And it's not just prostitution. Porn and stripping have the same problems. I've known many people involved in this (it's common in gay and trans circles) and it's a very sordid, sad thing. I just got out of a relationship/friendship with someone who has been whoring himself out, off and on, for years to pervs and ********. Knew someone else who became a meth head who was being pimped out, and she lost everything (car, home, career). I have no idea where you are getting this rosy picture of sex work but it isnt the reality I've seen. Most of those people appear to have trauma issues, especially the women. Gay men who get caught up in all this have similar trauma issues. I've heard many revolting, disgusting stories and witnessed many revolting, disgusting things.

 

[PureX]

So if Bob says to Sally...
"I'll give you $10 for some whoopee."
Sally agrees, & Bob pays for the service.

You might like to see one or both rot in prison
for decades because it's the same as rape.
Ruin their lives. Impose the burden on taxpayers.
Create oppression, fear, & woe in society.
I find such a value to be utterly heinous....evil.

You're grossly mischaracterizing the circumstances.

Let's try it this way: Bob is Sally's landlord, and her rent is due. But Sally doesn't have the money. So Bob tells Sally he won't kick her out for non-payment of the rent if she will let him have sex with her. Which she does not want to do. But she agrees to do it because she doesn't want to be evicted even more than she doesn't want to have sex with Bob. Bob is thereby EXPLOITING Sally's unfortunate circumstanced to force her to have sex with him.

Or: Bob knows that Sally is addicted to drugs. He also knows she does not want to have sex with him. But he figures that if he waits until she's hurting for a fix, and offers her a little money, she'll agree to let him have sex with her, anyway. Again, Bob is EXPLOITING Sally's unfortunate circumstances to make her have sex with him.

Or let's try it this way: Bob has no idea why Sally would agree to have sex with him for money even though she does not otherwise want to. But Bob doesn't care. All he cares about is doing what he wants with Sally, so he's happy to EXPLOIT her need for some of his money to subjugate her desire not to have sex with him.

Forcing a woman to have sex when she doesn't want to using a threat of bodily harm is called rape. But forcing a woman to have sex when she doesn't want to using money, or using her need of it to survive, somehow magically becomes 'not rape'. The force is still force, her desire not to have sex is still her desire, and the act is still the same act, but somehow, in our money-obsessed minds, the coercion and exploitation of money no longer constitutes 'force'. It's just assumed that her need for money makes her want to have sex. Or if it doesn't then too bad for her because the money trumps her feelings or desires. The money erases our obligation to respect her feelings or desires. The money trumps everything. Because in our culture we don't recognize the difference between commerce (fair trade) and exploitation (unfair trade). Commerce IS exploitation, to us.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It is the norm. And it's not just prostitution. Porn and stripping are the same thing. I've known many people involved in this (it's common in gay and trans circles) and it's a very sordid, sad thing. I just got out of a relationship/friendship with someone who has been whoring himself out, off and on, for years to pervs and ********. I have no idea where you are getting this rosy picture of sex work but it isnt the reality I've seen. Most of those people appear to have trauma issues, especially the women. Gay men who get caught up in all this have similar trauma issues. I've heard many revolting, disgusting stories and witnessed many revolting, disgusting things.

Perhaps we have a different definition of "sexual assault". If one's job involves of being touched and groped by strangers is it "assault" when that happens? I would limit sexual assault to some form of rape in these cases. To anyone entering the stripping business if getting touched by others freaks you out then that job is not for you.

 

[Revoltingest]

You're grossly mischaracterizing the circumstances.

Let's try it this way: Bob is Sally's landlord, and her rent is due. But Sally doesn't have the money. So Bob tells Sally he won't kick her out for non-payment of the rent if she will let him have sex with her. Which she does not want to do. But she agrees to do it because she doesn't want to be evicted. Bob is EXPLOITING Sally's unfortunate circumstanced to force her to have sex with him.

Or: Bob knows that Sally is addicted to drugs. He also knows she does not want to have sex with him. But he figures that if he waits until she hurting for a fix, and offers her a little money, she'll agree to let him have sex with her, anyway. Again, Bob is EXPLOITING Sally unfortunate circumstances to make her have sex with him.

Or let's try it this way: Bob has no idea why Sally would agree to have sex with him for money even though she does not otherwise want to. But Bob doesn't care. All he cares about is doing what he wants with Sally, so he's happy to EXPLOIT her need for money overpowering her desire not to have sex with him.

Forcing a woman to have sex when she doesn't want to using a threat of bodily harm is called rape. But forcing a woman to have sex when she doesn't want to using money, or using her need of it to survive, somehow magically becomes 'not rape'. The force is still force, her desire not to have sex is still her desire, and the act is still the same act, but somehow, in our money-obsessed minds, the coercion and exploitation of money no longer constitutes 'force'. It's just assumed that her need for money makes her want to have sex. Or if doesn't then too bad for her because the money trumps her feelings or desires. The money erases our obligation to respect her feelings or desires. The money trumps everything.

Your working definition of "forced" is personal.
There are compelling reasons to do things such as
work for a living. But one is not "forced" to take a
job in the sense that it's against one's will.
Trading sex for rent is not slavery or rape.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Perhaps we have a different definition of "sexual assault". If one's job involves of being touched and groped by strangers is it "assault" when that happens? I would limit sexual assault to some form of rape in these cases. To anyone entering the stripping business if getting touched by others freaks you out then that job is not for you.

If they don't want to be touched by them, it is assault. Many sex workers are disgusted by their customers. You become quite adept at lying to yourself and others in such situations.

 

[Revoltingest]

Perhaps we have a different definition of "sexual assault". If one's job involves of being touched and groped by strangers is it "assault" when that happens? I would limit sexual assault to some form of rape in these cases. To anyone entering the stripping business if getting touched by others freaks you out then that job is not for you.

My bro-in-law is a masseuse. He's paid for all this
this extensive touching. He needs to work for a living.
Some would argue that he's being forced.
I find it ridiculous.