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Science and atheism inconsistent?

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No, that's just foolish misapplication and misunderstanding.
[Gnostic] (properly) refers to an acquired process of external spiritual knowledge relating to metaphysics and philosophy.

Capital-G Gnostic is a noun, and has a different meaning from small-g gnostic used as an adjective to describe a particular type of theist or atheist.

We run into this phenomenon a lot here - somebody citing one of several dictionary definitions for a word, and insisting that the word defined can only be used in the specified way (prescriptive). When people tell others what they mean when they use a word, the proper reaction is to simply note what was said and assimilate the information for the purpose of understanding that speaker or writer. To argue that the word cannot be used in that manner is pointless and incorrect. Words mean what the person using them intends them to mean. If the usage isn't standard, one need only explain how he is using the word. If the person one is dealing with would rather argue about words are allowed to mean, find somebody else to converse with - somebody that is interested in understanding and discussing your thoughts.

Look at how many people on this thread alone (and Dr, Gleiser of the OP) are implicitly or explicitly insisting that the word atheist applies only to people willing to assert that no gods do or can exist, a definition that would exclude most self-identifying atheists.

Theists just need to stop worrying about the term "atheist," and what they think it means. The conversation is going nowhere.

One gets the impression after awhile that they just aren't interested in what atheists actually have to say as much as telling us what we believe, and getting it wrong. This probably comes from their priests, pastors, preachers, and ministers doing the same thing - telling their congregations what we believe and why, and getting it wrong.

the idea that the scientific process somehow frees humanity from it's ignorance and bias and shows us 'true reality' is foolishness. All it shows us is what works relative to our expectations, and what doesn't. What that has to do with 'true reality' is anyone's guess, ... and everyone's opinion, of course.

Nothing else really matters apart from the fact that we have desires and beliefs that inform our actions, and that if belief B reliably informs action A such that desired result D is the outcome more consistently than other competing beliefs, then belief B can be called whatever you call useful ideas - true, correct, factual, knowledge - whatever. Concerns about absolute or objective truth are metaphysical time wasters.

What difference does it make what's "really" out there if we can manipulate our experience of it to conform to our preferences? Hologram? Brain-in-a-vat? Last Thursdayism? Descartes' demon? A matrix? The information is neither available to us nor necessary to have. We are irreversibly locked into the theater of our consciousness, experience nothing else directly, and therefore can assign primacy to the subjective conscious content over what we imagine underlies it.

Evolutionist and Creationist look at the same evidence concerning life on this planet. Yet the creationist sees the evidence as proof that God exists, and the evolutionist sees the evidence as random chance acting upon matter without the need for a creator. Same evidence, different conclusions.

More correctly, the evolutionist sees that blind, unguided nature appears to have the ability to create earth's tree of life without help from an intelligent designer. The evidence for abiogenesis and evolution is not evidence against the possibility or existence of a god or gods. There is still the possibility of gods nudging evolution to proceed in an intended direction, just no reason to believe so.

I hope that you aren't implying that both the creationist and evolutionist are each evaluating evidence properly, yet disagreeing on what it means. The principal difference between faith-based and reason and evidence based thought is that the latter begins by examining the available relevant evidence and derives a tentative conclusion that is tested, whereas the faith-based thinker begins with an insufficiently supported premise accepted on faith, and then sorts through the evidence looking for that which seems to support the faith-based premise. This cherry-picked evidence is then front-loaded before the premise, which is then offered as a conclusion derived from that evidence - something I call a pseudo-conclusion.

It's not what someone believes, but how they belief, a matter of style, that is the same whether it is atheism or theism.

As just indicated, I'd say that the opposite is true. The faith-based thinker and the reason and evidence-based thinker use very different methods for processing information and deciding what is true about the world.

Enough time spent around listening to atheists is enough to make someone become a theist

Actually, spending time with theists is pretty validating of their choice for most atheists. Why would anybody want to be in the theist's place if he can thrive without religious encumberments? Why would an atheist want to be a person who needed comforting from religion? Growing up without religion forces one to grapple with issues that are eventually resolved with acceptance - acceptance that consciousness may end at death, acceptance that we are not watched over or protected from on high, the ability to grieve without false beliefs about seeing loved ones again some day, the acceptance that man is the measure of what is moral, etc..

But if you never get the opportunity to develop those skills because of religious beliefs, then you will need that religion to comfort your fears. As I posted here recently, religion offers no positive purpose or value to the person whose emotional, intellectual, spiritual, and moral needs can be met without it. The fact that a god belief makes a person feel more complete is not necessarily a good thing. Benefiting from a prosthetic leg is great if you have lost a leg, but isn't it better not to need one?
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
My "wimpy" assertion was addressed at:
provided that one makes only the claim that there is, so far, no evidence that remotely suggests the existence of any deity​

The lack of evidence for the existence of deities is only half of the argument. More important, at least to me, is the vast amount of evidence that god, gods, God are nothing more than the creatons of man's imaginings just like fairies, pixies, Spiderman and The Hulk.
This was not at all clear in your reply of:
That's a very wimpy approach and it completely ignores history.
If anything was wimpy... it was your attempt to get your point across.

When someone presents compelling evidence that the bite of a radioactive spider can give a human the ability to spin webs and use them to jump from building to building I will admit I was wrong to believe that Spiderman was just the creation of Stan Lee's fertile mind.
But isn't that what I stated, exactly? That if someone did indeed provide such evidence that you'd be a fool to then continue to deny? Hello? Are you there?
 
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Watchmen

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Perhaps I'm reading to much into your comment, but are you implying that atheists are not open-minded and willing to accept new evidence and evolve our conclusions accordingly?

If so, I would be glad to address that.
You are so wrong. I am implying nothing of the sort. I’m borderline atheist myself (I’m a very skeptical agnostic at this point). Why are you reading too much into my posts?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
You are in a very small minority.
At least you acknowledge our existence.
But the ideal of "God" is one that a great many men and women share, across time, place, and culture. Claiming this is not so because they used different names, images, and myths to express their idealized experience doesn't change the overwhelming universality of it. And all the disagreement you can muster isn't going to change that.
How many of those who share the idea of god/gods acquired it from culture?
It could've been that (like me) many were born with no such belief or sense
that deities existed. Parents & peers give them religion.
I've known so many people who grew up with it (usually Catholicism),
but had the lightbulb in their head switch on.....
"This makes no sense! There is no God."
 
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Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
As just indicated, I'd say that the opposite is true. The faith-based thinker and the reason and evidence-based thinker use very different methods for processing information and deciding what is true about the world.
It may be different methods, but the motivation is equally the same. One can change the objects of beliefs, or the methods supporting them, as you point out, but the desire to find answers outside of oneself is the same. How they are held is the same. It's just shifting God. That's all. The style is the same. It's just a new object of faith, and methods of support to justify that faith.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
it's untrue that there is no evidence, because there is plenty of personal, subjective evidence that you simply choose to ignore

Your personal, subjective experiences don’t constitute evidence for others. At a minimum, evidence needs to be evident.

you assume a conclusion based on "no evidence" as if it were the logical default conclusion, when it clearly is not

Unbelief is the default position for any claim that is insufficiently supported. Belief should be supported, as should disbelief. Lacking either evidence for or against a god or gods should result in unbelief, which is neither believing nor believing that the claim is untrue. It is merely not accepting it as no more than somebody else's belief.

The evidence for and against vampires is about the same as that for gods, and most people understand that in such a situation, unbelief is the logical default position. We live our lives as if vampires don't exist without having to provide an experiment, measurement, or observation that definitively rules them out.

The agnostic atheist does the same with gods. He lives as if they don't exist without proof, because absent a means for ruling gods in or out, life without religion or a god belief is the default position.

ontological naturalists have responded that the case for no gods is parallel to the case for no elves, pixies, dwarves, fairies, goblins, or other creates. A decisive proof against every possible supernatural being is not necessary for the conclusion that none of them are real to be justified.

I agree with that in spirit, but I do not conclude that none are real. I conclude that there is no reason to treat any of them as real, which I think is different.

Dwarves is an interesting word. As you know, most English words ending in "f" or "fe" such as knife, hoof, wive, calf, and self take the "-ves" ending when pluralized. My spellchecker (incorrectly) says that there is no word dwarves. It also doesn't like rooves, although that spelling is also considered acceptable. Disney and his seven dwarfs may be the reason for the word dwarfs replacing dwarves in most people's lexicons.

Since believers believe without objective evidence, no amount of rational evidence could dissuade them from their belief.

You might like the quotes in the following SPOILER section

no matter how many times these flaws are pointed out and explained to you, you will simply refuse to acknowledge them to maintain your irrational bias. This is a clear example of the close-minded bias of atheism that the OP is referring to.

You haven't made your case. I read your argument. It wasn't convincing. I didn't accept your claim that, "there is plenty of personal, subjective evidence that you simply choose to ignore," nor your claim that atheism isn't the proper default position.

It's faith-based thought that is closed-minded, not reason and evidence based thought. Here are several examples of closed-minded theists :

[1] "The way in which I know Christianity is true is first and foremost on the basis of the witness of the Holy Spirit in my heart. And this gives me a self-authenticating means of knowing Christianity is true wholly apart from the evidence. And therefore, even if in some historically contingent circumstances the evidence that I have available to me should turn against Christianity, I do not think that this controverts the witness of the Holy Spirit. In such a situation, I should regard that as simply a result of the contingent circumstances that I'm in, and that if I were to pursue this with due diligence and with time, I would discover that the evidence, if in fact I could get the correct picture, would support exactly what the witness of the Holy Spirit tells me. So I think that's very important to get the relationship between faith and reason right..." - William Lane Craig

That prominent Christian apologist is telling you that his mind is closed for business because of faith. He's telling you that even if he is wrong and evidence that would confirm that fact to an open mind is presented, it will have no impact on him. Then there's this from another prominent theologian :

[2] The moderator in the debate between science educator Bill Nye and Christian creationist Ken Ham on creationism as a viable scientific field of study asked, "What would change your minds?" Nye answered, "Evidence." Ham answered, "Nothing. I'm a Christian.” Elsewhere, Ham stated, “By definition, no apparent, perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the scriptural record."

That is what faith is and does. It perverts reason. It distorts clear thinking. Craig and Ham are both unreasonable. Worse, they consider their position a virtue, as if there is any virtue in simply choosing to believe something in the face of contradictory evidence. How is that more virtuous than choosing to stick a knife in your eye?

Here are a few more. Apparently, it's an epidemic :

[3] “If somewhere in the Bible I were to find a passage that said 2 + 2 = 5, I wouldn't question what I am reading in the Bible. I would believe it, accept it as true, and do my best to work it out and understand it."- Pastor Peter laRuffa

[4] “When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted its data. The only Bible-honoring conclusion is, of course, that Genesis 1-11 is actual historical truth, regardless of any scientific or chronological problems thereby entailed.” –American young Earth creationist and co-founder of the Creation Research Society and the Institute for Creation Research Henry M. Morris

[5] “As I shared with my professors years ago when I was in college, if all the evidence in the universe turns against creationism, I would be the first to admit it, but I would still be a creationist because that is what the Word of God seems to indicate” – creationist Kurt Wise

[6] “Creationist students, listen to me very carefully: There is evidence for evolution, and evolution is an extremely successful scientific theory. That doesn't make it ultimately true, and it doesn't mean that there could not possibly be viable alternatives. It is my own faith choice to reject evolution, because I believe the Bible reveals true information about the history of the earth that is fundamentally incompatible with evolution. I am motivated to understand God's creation from what I believe to be a biblical, creationist perspective. Evolution itself is not flawed or without evidence. Please don't be duped into thinking that somehow evolution itself is a failure. Please don't idolize your own ability to reason. Faith is enough. If God said it, that should settle it. Maybe that's not enough for your scoffing professor or your non-Christian friends, but it should be enough for you.” source

And by way of contrast, here's what open-mindedness looks. It is not the willingness to believe insufficiently supported claims, but the willingness to consider and be convinced by compelling evidence :

"We're not two sides of the same coin, and you don't get to put your unreason up on the same shelf with my reason. Your stuff has to go over there, on the shelf with Zeus and Thor and the Kraken, with the stuff that is not evidence-based, stuff that religious people never change their mind about, no matter what happens ... I'm open to anything for which there's evidence. Show me a god, and I will believe in him. If Jesus Christ comes down from the sky during the halftime show of this Sunday's Super Bowl and turns all the nachos into loaves and fishes, well, I'll think ... "Oh, look at that. I was wrong. There he is. My bad. Praise the Lord." - Bill Maher
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
unless you want to use mathematics, language isn't precise, nor is the universe static.
Saying "flower" isn't very precise, but saying "rose" or "tulip" is far more precise. The same holds for belief, which is a very broad term where it helps to have the definition narrowed down some.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
At least you acknowledge our existence.

How many of those who share the idea of god/gods acquired it from culture?
All those different names for water do not mean that all those people had a totally different idea in their minds of what water is. The Tuaregs have something like 14 different words for water because they live in the desert, and water is extremely important to them. So they define it by how they find it. Island cultures have different names for water based in it's behavior as a large body, like the sea, because they travel on the surface of those large bodies of water. Different words for it, different experiences of it, and yet it's all still water. The same water that you and I experience, in our own way and by our own labels. So, are there really all these different waters? Or are they really just different ways that we humans experience water, and convey their experiences to others? The thing to understand, here, is that H2O is just a molecular formulation. It needs no names or stories from us to exist. The names and stories are the result of how we humans interact with and understand it. You're trying to use the differences in the ways we humans experience and understand what we experience to claim that what they experience somehow isn't "real". And that's just nonsensically biased. Humans have experienced something, universally, and they've all conceptualized it in their own respective ways, just as we do with everything we experience. I'm sorry that you're such an anomaly in this, and that you have not had this universal experience, or that you have chosen to ignore/reject it, or whatever. But that doesn't change the facts. And the facts are that the vast majority of humans across time, place, and many cultures have all experienced something they all labelled and contextualize in their own unique ways. And in our culture, we call it "God".
It could've been that (like me) many were born with no such belief or sense
that deities existed. Parents & peers give them religion.
Humans are born with no way of comprehending love. The idea had to be taught to us so that when we experienced it, we could identify that experience. But we would have experienced it, regardless, as we all do, in some form or other. So all the culture does for us it give us a conceptual box to put our experiences in, and can use to convey them to others. This is not a sign of some sort of deceit. It's just how shared information creates a context for shared experiences.
I've known so many people who grew up with it (usually Catholicism), but had the lightbulb in their head switch on.....
"This makes no sense! There is no God."
The fact that people amend the information set over time and with more experience is hardly indicative of anything sinister. I'm quite sure that most of us have amended our conception of love throughout our lives. This doesn't mean that love is not "real", or that it is some sinister cultural infection. It's a complex human experience, like many others. It is experienced both universally, AND uniquely. Just as is "God".
 
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A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
First I did not prescribe true nor false to atheism, I said neither applies. Come back again with a coherent response,
Not so sure about this, to be honest... look at your quotes again and try and restate the above with a straight-face:

Simply; The belief in atheism, whether true or false, is in harmony with science.
So here, you can sort of dodge my point a little bit, because you can claim that you were talking about "the belief in atheism" - as if some people just don't believe that atheism exists or something. But I don't think that idea was at all what you were referring to. It seems clear to me that you were saying that "atheism" could literally be "true" or "false." I mean... just read the words you wrote: "atheism, whether true or false"... "atheism, whether true or false"

When I see the word "whether" used with an "or", it looks a lot like a dichotomy to me. As in, "atheism could be either true or false". It does not at all read like what you are trying to pretend you said (and so smugly told me - in what I like to pretend was your very best kindergartner voice - to "come back with a coherent response"). What you are trying to pretend you said would read like this: "Atheism is neither true nor false." Boom. That is NOT what you said. See how that works? Pfff... words... am I right?

And in this next one you minced up the words a bit, and what you said really doesn't make any sense, but...
I am not commenting here concerning why atheists believe as they do. I also do not address whether atheism is true nor false.

"Whether atheism is true nor false." Using the word "whether" with "nor" is just screwy. I am not even sure what you would actually be trying to convey if these are the words you meant to type... but again,my best guess is that you were actually thinking the word "or" here again.

In any case... you most definitely did ascribe the possibility of "Atheism" being "true" or "false", as far as I can tell. Perhaps you need to work on being a bit more coherent yourself?
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Not so sure about this, to be honest... look at your quotes again and try and restate the above with a straight-face:

Straight face I do not consider whether atheism is true nor false is an issue in this thread. If you can't ask reasonable questions in a sensible dialogue stuff it where the sun don't shine!

Stop splitting anal retentive frog hairs!
 

Truly Enlightened

Well-Known Member
I am very smart.
I understand how artifice works and why we humans engage in it better than most people do. I've studied it, and practiced it for many years. Artifice is how we humans give conceptual "shape" and "context" to our experience of being, and how we convey that experience to others.


"Artifice" : "Clever or cunning devices or expedients, especially as used to trick or deceive others.", "a behavior that is designed to trick someone". Is this how you think, "humans give conceptual "shape" and "context" to our experience of being, and how we convey that experience to others"? Is this the kind of deception you have studied and practice for years?

Admitting this is clearly NOT very smart. What exactly is it that you see that is transparent about the artifice required to believe in any man-created God(s)?
 

Truly Enlightened

Well-Known Member
Rambling rant posts are not worth responding to. The maybes were yours and of course I rejected to them, because they did not reflect what I posted. It is your glib and insensative remarks that I refused to respond to with good reason.



There are various reasons why atheists and other secular humanists do not believe in God(s) primarily, because most atheists do not believe there is any evidence for God(s) to have a reason to believe in God(s). Some, but not all, Zen Buddhists are raised in the culture and belief system that does not believe in God(s), or some atheists become Zen Buddhism, because they share their world view without Gods. There are other cultures like in China where a percentage of the population are raised in atheist communities that do not believe in God(s).


So it is your view that Atheists do not believe in the existence of God(s)because they believe that there is no evidence to support a belief in the existence of a God(s). Second question. Do you think that people should, or should not believe in anything, until they have a factual and rational foundation to support that belief? I'm certain that you would agree that people should not believe in anything, simply because their next-door neighbour and their community group believes in it(i.e., racial and religious profiling and stereotyping).
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
So it is your view that Atheists do not believe in the existence of God(s)because they believe that there is no evidence to support a belief in the existence of a God(s).

Most atheists in the West are atheists for this reason.

Second question. Do you think that people should, or should not believe in anything, until they have a factual and rational foundation to support that belief? I'm certain that you would agree that people should not believe in anything, simply because their next-door neighbour and their community group believes in it(i.e., racial and religious profiling and stereotyping).

If I believed this I would be a strong agnostic, atheist, or a strict materialist, and I am not. I do not use this criteria for belief. I am a scientist and believe that the criteria for the nature of our physical existence is methodological naturalism.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Straight face I do not consider whether atheism is true nor false is an issue in this thread. If you can't ask reasonable questions in a sensible dialogue stuff it where the sun don't shine!

Stop splitting anal retentive frog hairs!
And you still didn't address the point! Nice. "Not an issue in this thread." Why am I picturing the Monty Python and the Holy Grail scenes where Arthur is yelling "Run away!" ?
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I agree with that in spirit, but I do not conclude that none are real. I conclude that there is no reason to treat any of them as real, which I think is different.

OK

Dwarves is an interesting word. As you know, most English words ending in "f" or "fe" such as knife, hoof, wive, calf, and self take the "-ves" ending when pluralized. My spellchecker (incorrectly) says that there is no word dwarves. It also doesn't like rooves, although that spelling is also considered acceptable. Disney and his seven dwarfs may be the reason for the word dwarfs replacing dwarves in most people's lexicons.

Anal retentive grammar and spelling nazis are not welcome.
 
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