-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Satan in Christianity
- Thread starter Rival
- Start date
In Job Satan was evil, and when asked, "where do you come from?" Said, "walking this earth".
That comes from the made up gospel of John.
The Christian view is a conglomerate of all the Pagan ideas globally as well, mixed with every reference in the Bible; as it is based on the Roman Catholic ideas (universal doctrine).
I also find the Jewish view silly, that satan is a force working for God; personally find satan/devil (accuser/slanderer) is a virus in the Matrix, which is why in Job God has to ask where did you come from.
We all have that spirit of an accuser/slanderer within, and the more we feed it, the worse it gets; which is why some religious people are labelled as the synagogue of satan.
Last edited:
Augustus
…
Evolutions in the question of theodicy I would imagine and Hellenic/Roman influences from Tartarus.
As religions spread they tend to adopt characteristics of the belief systems that they replace.
That would be my guess anyway, but its speculative rather than being based on any real investigation of the issue.
Christians and Jews have not agreed about things for a long time, and they have maintained separate communities with occasional interaction. At times the two were at odds and so did not communicate.
This has always been the case in Christianity. Only the personhood of Satan is new, viewing Satan as one powerful invisible being opposed to God, sneaking about trying to ruin people and send them to hell. However there is nothing new about talking about evil as if it can do things. Its similar to how people today say inanimate objects do things or want things. "That car wants to be painted" etc. In languages other than English its a common feature. For example in Spanish there is a verb case just for inanimate objects that do things. In more recent centuries Satan is considered to be a fallen angel, an actual being who is God's greatest angel who then betrays God in a backstabbing fashion. Many people think this belief about him being an angel comes from Milton's Paradise Lost play and was not originally taken seriously but worked its way into common thought over time. Good luck tracking down the time and date, because it probably did not happen all at once.
That is impossible for me to determine without consulting Christian texts, but I think those texts agree with you for what that is worth.
I think the Hebrew Scriptures accurately expose Satan as wicked. He is responsible for the rebellion in Eden that has led to all the tragedy since. It is the Jewish view that is at odds with the Christian view, not the Hebrew Scriptures, IMO.
Akivah
Well-Known Member
False. The book of Job shows that the satan is completely under G-d's control. The Tanakh never says that a satan is in the garden of Hebrew, it is a snake. That is obvious if you read the original Hebrew.
The Christian view of the satan is silly, it makes their father god look weak.
Akivah
Well-Known Member
The Christians did it to create their new religion. In order to get people to believe in a savior, there has to be something to be saved from. So they wrote a story about a fictional place of eternal torment and their guy to save people from it. And hell, as a fear factor, has proven to be an effective deterrent to prevent people from leaving the religion, or even asking questions.
Genesis 3:15 makes it clear that Jehovah was not talking to a mere serpent, but rather the one who used that voiceless beast for his own wicked purpose. The book of Job makes it clear to that Satan, not God, caused Job's suffering.
How does this verse 'make it clear' that God was not just talking 'to a mere serpent'?
No; in the Book of Job God is in control of Satan's actions. Satan can do nothing without God's permission.
allfoak
Alchemist
How could such a thing happen?
It's not all made up is it?
Please stop trying to derail my thread. This is not the topic for that discussion.
Last edited:
allfoak
Alchemist
I was not trying to derail your thread, i apologize for being off topic.
I simply misunderstood the nature of the post.
For what it is worth, i think your opinion is correct.
They are indeed very different characters.
I think a close look at both the old and the new testament however, would show the idea of Satan being some serpent that tempted a woman called Eve to be silliness .
RabbiO
הרב יונה בן זכריה
Another person who apparently has never met my mother-in-law.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
This has got to be one of the most important questions that Christians have to answer. Why indeed Satan different in the two religions. Satan has such a prominent place in the NT but not in the Jewish Scriptures? If he's so real, why weren't the Jews told more about him, especially Adam and Eve? It would have been nice if they were told the Earth is filled with fallen angels that want to deceive them.
Now, I've been told that in non-canonical Jewish writings, Satan is there. And, an evil Satan-type of being is there in other religions. So I feel there is a good chance the good vs. evil themes from these had a big influence on where the Christian Satan came from. But, Christians then have to explain things a little more... like your questions: When did he fall and how did he become evil and why oh why would God send him to Earth and let him be the ruler?
So how did he fall? Pride? I don't know? Why would a supposedly "perfect" angel have pride? Why would he even think that he could over power an All-powerful God? And, didn't God know that this angel was thinking about rebelling? But anyway, Christians say he did rebel because of his pride and one third of the angels followed him. Since none of this is clearly explained in the Bible, Christian "find" things in the Bible that they can use... He was the "Anointed Cherub"? And He was the "Morning Star"? In context, those verses aren't talking about Satan, but Christians use them anyway. Strange that they don't like it when others take their Scriptures out of context.
For me that whole thing about falling opens up a lot more questions... like... Do angels have freewill? If they do, then who can God trust? What if another angel rebels? What if some of the bad ones want to repent? Would God forgive them? Since Satan is our tempter, who was his tempter that caused him to sin? We all have pride, among other things that go against God, yet God forgives us and has a plan of "salvation" for us, but not his angels that sinned?
Instead, God creates a pit to throw them into but not yet. Before he does, he casts them down to Earth? Why? Evil invisible spirits running around? Why? Now Christians have no problem, they call on the name of Jesus and the devil flees from them, but how about the Jews? What did they do to fight us Satan and his hordes? Sorry, but it all sounds mythical to me, at least I hope so.
So here we are, as if people don't have enough problems obeying God, he sends an adversary, a liar, an evil one etc. to Earth to try and get us to disobey God. And this is all part of God's plan? I don't know? But, I do know that there is evil in the world. And, people have tried to explain why. But for sure, the Jewish explanation is different than the Christian one. To me they are both probably tied in with mythology of other people and religions. But without them, how do we explain the world as it is? Easy, we come up with another religion that takes all the views of the past and reinterprets them. And there are such religions. So religious beliefs evolve. And, I'm sure, views of Satan have evolved.
But who else, other than the Christians, makes it so scary to go against their beliefs? Who else says that without their God, all people, along with the fallen angels, will be burnt up in hell fire? Who else makes it so easy to avoid that fate by just saying "I believe in Jesus"? Is that the truth? Or, is it only superstitious religious people making things up? I hope so, because it all sounds like fantasy to me. But awesome question. I'm enjoying reading the responses. CG
Hellenic mystery school and Zoroastrian dualist influences, basically.
Genesis 3:15 says; "And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring. He will crush your head, and you will strike him in the heel." IMO, this is obviously a prophecy as to the final outcome to Satan and his "seed" or followers. Revelation 12:9 identifies Satan the devil as the original serpent. An animal serpent has no ability to speak and certainly no knowledge of God.
It is true Jehovah is almighty, and can prevent Satan from thwarting God's purposes. However, I believe Satan challenged God's right to rule his Creation, not his power. Satan claims God's Sovereignty does not benefit mankind, and further claims man only serves Jehovah out of self-interest. This was the challenge he made regarding Job, and by extension, every person. I believe Jehovah has allowed a limited time for Satan to try to prove his scurrilous slanders. Man's history demonstrates to all that happiness depends on submitting to God, not Satan. God's permission of wickedness does not make him responsible for the wicked acts of others, especially Satan's. I believe in his due time Jehovah will undo all the harm Satan and wicked, imperfect people have caused.
Last edited:
Why would God create such a being though? What need has He to create a being, totally, unrepentantly evil, opposing God in everything, even though he knows he's going to lose and be sent to Hell? God creates a being just so that being can be totally evil and damned forever?
No, I cannot understand this.
Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
Satan only harmed God with God's blessing, though. He was basically just a dick goading God into smiting someone for no good reason.
God wasn't originally written as omniscient. He also couldn't find the only two humans in a small garden.
When someone puts a hit out on someone else, not just the actual murderer gets arrested.
Yeah, 'cause if it's because it talked, well, hell, so did a donkey and we don't say it was demon-possessed.
Or it talks about why many people don't like snakes. I like them, though ... they're cute.
What about Balaam's donkey?
It could also be noted that Job is a red herring and that the actual point of the story is "can you goad God into doing immoral things?". Turns out, why yes, yes you can.
(1) The influence of the Persians and the Babylonians during the exile and post Exile period.
(2) Jesus communicated in parables that included Satan. Over the ages Satan has moved from being part of allegorical stories to the personification of evil. Church dogma and doctrine has made it very difficult to overcome such a view.
How does Judaism view Satan? I am most familiar with Satan as a counsellor in the book of Job.
Last edited:
Did God create the Devil? I believe the scriptural answer is no. Of Jehovah, Deuteronomy 32:4,5 declares; "The Rock, perfect is his activity,For all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness who is never unjust; Righteous and upright is he. They are the ones who have acted corruptly.They are not his children, the defect is their own."
All intelligent creatures have the ability to make moral choices. Some perfect creatures, human and spirit, willfully chose to rebel against their Creator. Satan is foremost, and by lying slander made himself a devil (slanderer) and by opposing God, a Satan (resister). Imperfect humans likewise often choose to become murderers, slanderers, thieves, etc. They made themselves such by their actions, IMO. They were not born such, but failed to "reject the bad and choose the good". (Isaiah 7:16)