Russia is Rounding up Jehovah's Witnesses.

[stvdv]

Do you really want to know?

This sounds more like you misinterpreting what was said with your own bias leading you to wrong conclusions. With every post you confirm that you hear only what you want to hear.

Since, as @Hockeycowboy has already mentioned, we do not believe that heaven was ever a destination that God had in mind for his earthly children. He intended that we all live forever right here on a paradise earth. So what you have said is again, horribly inaccurate.

What is your definition of emotional blackmail? We accept the Bible, just as you might accept your own holy writings. If our God declares that the end of wickedness is before all humanity and he tells us to warn people of his intention to cleanse the earth of evil and all who practice it......is it emotional blackmail to sound that warning? If your own god's told you something similar, would you share their message?

We have at this moment, an horrific situation in Hawaii with the eruption of Kilauea, warnings are issued to all affected residents but no one can be forced to act on those warnings. Despite what can be observed, some intend to stay. That is their right, but is it emotional blackmail to tell them what they may be facing in the future? Our decisions affect our future for better or worse, but they are ours to make.

I can only imagine your mindset whilst attending what appears to be an assembly day gathering, which we have three times a year.
This would be the only times we gather in such numbers. Our congregations are kept deliberately small so that the body of elders can assist all in a close family setting when problems arise.
We view one another as family members. We love one another, not just in our own congregations, but in our entire brotherhood in the world. (John 13:34-35) We are over 8 million strong and we all believe one truth.

Do we believe that worshippers of what we believe are false gods will make it through the foretold end of this system of things? No, we do not, because the Judge appointed by God to carry out the foretold final battle along with his powerful angels, has already said that only those "doing the will of the Father" will live through the end times, just as Noah survived the flood. (Matthew 24:37-39) He also said that those being saved would be "few" compared to the "many" who are on the wrong road. (Matthew 7:13-14)

We do not force anyone to listen, but we are instructed to keep preaching this message until the end. (Matthew 24:14) Everyone has the right to reject the message, but, like it or not, we are commissioned to preach it. (Matthew 28:19-20)

We are only trying to save lives.....OK? We are not a threat to anyone.

Below I just give my opinion. I don't claim to know the truth. Skip whatever feels bad. Be Happy is all I wish for you.

This sounds more like you misinterpreting what was said with your own bias leading you to wrong conclusions. With every post you confirm that you hear only what you want to hear.
I think I have it all quite clear now. And I was not that far off from the beginning according to these 2 replies:
Russia is Rounding up Jehovah's Witnesses. [post #65 @savagewind: thanks for the info]
Russia is Rounding up Jehovah's Witnesses.. [post #63 @savagewind: thanks for the info]

we do not believe that heaven was ever a destination that God had in mind for his earthly children. He intended that we all live forever right here on a paradise earth. So what you have said is again, horribly inaccurate.
I am totally not into semantics. I only look for the bigger picture = Love and Respect.
So if one calls it Heaven/Paradise/Earth is all fine. It's about "Goal of Life". Can Only 1 religion claim this or do all have a chance?

What is your definition of emotional blackmail?
Telling someone that his own religion [Belief System] is inferior, not good, not leading to heaven, not leading to the goal of life [again I am not into semantics; just take your pic]. That your religion is better/best etc. You have no right to judge someones religion [related to soul/spirit; again I am not into semantics]. You are free to do so, but no right. I just give a warning, some people might bite back. Violence invokes violence. Demeaning others' religion is irritating, leading to violence if done long enough. All people I asked about this, agreed. [So "demeaning others' Religion" is "not done". It's oke to point out wrong actions of course]

If your own god's told you something similar, would you share their message?
My God also gives some advices which I follow:
1: All religions lead to God
2: All religions have links to Love
3: You have no right to judge and criticize religions of others
So answering your question: If my God warns disaster is coming. If I meet religious persons and we talk about God, I would stimulate them to continue with their religion and follow "Love", "Respect", "Truth", "Non-Violence", "Righteous Actions". And Be Happy.

We have at this moment, an horrific situation in Hawaii with the eruption of Kilauea, warnings are issued to all affected residents but no one can be forced to act on those warnings. Despite what can be observed, some intend to stay. That is their right, but is it emotional blackmail to tell them what they may be facing in the future? Our decisions affect our future for better or worse, but they are ours to make.
Warning people about the future I am careful [Future is in Gods hands]. But it's good to share uplifting thoughts like I just wrote above.
Of course it's good to help people in Hawaii. The emotional Blackmail only starts when you start telling that their religion is not sufficient etc. like explained above. You can give advice on "bad actions" unrelated to religious belief. But respect their belief [it's their soul contact with God]
[And it shows you have compassion that you want to help others, that is very good. Just give my view 1 thought. And of course you are free to discard it].

I can only imagine your mindset whilst attending what appears to be an assembly day gathering, which we have three times a year.
My mindset you can of course not imagine. I love big gatherings. The bigger the better. I stayed for 10 years in a place where 5000 to 500.000 people gathered on daily basis. And I loved it. All religions, humanists, atheist, all denominations from all over the world came together. Not 1 fight I remember. Heaven on earth

Do we believe that worshippers of what we believe are false gods will make it through the foretold end of this system of things? No, we do not,
That is totally fine with me. You are free to believe. So are others. Just don't impose it on others [unless they ask for it, and want to know]. This I found the key "never give unasked advice". But if you speak, speak positive. Speak about your religion. Don't even think that your religion is better or superior. But definitely don't tell that to the other. Then there is full respect. And God is the one who will guide the other what he will chose. You just follow God "do not judge". Have faith that if you do so, all will come as God has planned.

We do not force anyone to listen, but we are instructed to keep preaching this message until the end. (Matthew 24:14) Everyone has the right to reject the message, but, like it or not, we are commissioned to preach it. (Matthew 28:19-20)
Oke you are commissioned to preach. That is oke. Good you don't force.
But are you also commisioned to tell the other that his religion is not the right one. Or does the Bible only tell to share the Good Word?

We are only trying to save lives.....OK? We are not a threat to anyone.
That is very sweet. And I believe you. I know you are no threat to anyone. And that you mean very well. If JW only speak enthousiastic about Jesus and God, and never imply that other religions are inferior, then I would enjoy attending their meetings. That is my message.
Don't worry, I love you. You seem very nice to me. And I also wish you the best, and not all the trouble and bad treatments like now in Russia. That is horrible.

My religion advices to just follow Law in country. So I less likely end up in much trouble. Even if they forbid me to go to meetings by Law, I will say "dear Lord, this is the Law, so from now on I pray to you in my heart"

And if your religion advices you to go against the Law in that country. Yes likely you get in trouble. I wished it were not true, because I prefer happy end. Not troubles. But you must follow your heart. I just wished I could spare you the pain. But if God wants you to go that way, then do it. And may God Bless you.

 

[stvdv]

That link did not take me to any particular post...what was your point?
You told two straight out lies....that we threaten people with hell and that we tell people that they will not go to heaven. Most of JW's are not going to heaven....we don't expect to. You carried on as if you had not been corrected. You still are.

We will preach as Jesus did, and if you don't like it....well, you don't have to like it. You have choices and rights just like we do.

That link did not take me to any particular post...what was your point?
[it works on my laptop: But I copy/pasted the contents here]
Russia is Rounding up Jehovah's Witnesses.
The gospel of the Jehovah's Witnesses is self-centered. The doctrine of the JWs :
God's only servant presently is the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses.
Jesus is head of the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses and no other organization.
There is only one "table of Jehovah" and it is the JWs.
To trust in the governing body means to be a sheep of God's flock and only they will please God and be given everlasting life.

You carried on as if you had not been corrected. You still are.
[I did correct it here in bold+red]
Russia is Rounding up Jehovah's Witnesses.

But now I do add that the essence from what I said is still correct. And that is made very clear by the text in green
Of course you are free to believe this.
But I am then free to say that this is: a)Arrogant + b)DemeaningToOtherBeliefSystems + c)NotNiceNotFriendlyToSay

My religion teaches me that all religions lead to God. So you also, but also others.
And if you disagree is oke
My religion teaches me that I should avoid people who disrespect other religion [see them as inferior, incorrect]

So my feeling in the beginning was correct
And there is one option left for me "Avoid JW"

Blessings to us All

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Thank you. You see if you put it nicely, I have no problems at all. You even mention "we believe". That's totally respectful. And I will never even attempt to debate on that. When someone forgets this little word IMO/IMHO, then respect is gone. That is all I wanted to convey here.

And that is what the Dutch JW did. If JW says "I believe you go to hell". Not too bad. If JW says "you go to hell, because Bible says so". Then chances are I silently walk away. Putin won't. Just a bit of advice. You seem to be nice. Don't get yourself in trouble when Jesus is not asking that of you. IMHO.

What Jesus learned me: a)Judge never + b)that verse where they had to take the dust from there sandels, when people were not interested, and don't go there again. Just leave. Meaning if there is a Law prohibiting proselytizing, just don't go. That's what the Bible advices. [You are better with verses, I don't remember, but you will find that one with the sandels/dust/wipe ...]

Thank you for being respectful.

You are welcome. And I appreciate the same treatment. (Really, doesn't everybody?) Actually, one of our meetings is designed to teach us how to interact with others. We try to apply the counsel, but at times we fail. Colossians 4:6, Philippians 2:2-4 and Galatians 5:22-23 are three passages we go over quite often. There are so many good words of counsel Jehovah gives us, in His Scriptures!

I want to say again, I appreciate the research you did on our beliefs on hell, Sheol, the grave, etc.

And when I posted that Scrip. in Acts 5, about how the Apostles felt about their preaching, you exhibited an understanding demeanor. I appreciate that, also.

Take care, cousin.

 

[Deeje]

Below I just give my opinion. I don't claim to know the truth.

For someone who doesn't claim to know the truth, you sure have a lot to say about what you don't know.

I think I have it all quite clear now. And I was not that far off from the beginning according to these 2 replies:

You think? Taking your ques from an ex-JW is somehow going to paint us in a positive light? I think you need to read the posts of this person to determine her qualifications to offer any advice about Jehovah's Witnesses....or anyone else.

I am totally not into semantics. I only look for the bigger picture = Love and Respect.
So if one calls it Heaven/Paradise/Earth is all fine. It's about "Goal of Life". Can Only 1 religion claim this or do all have a chance?

Perhaps semantics are important when discussing something across a language barrier. There is a bigger picture but it is not obscured by the details of how it gets to be a bigger picture.

If you believe that one God created all there is in the material Universe, (as we do) then he is one Creator who has given one set of laws and instructions to all of his intelligent creatures. There is an adversary in the big picture whose aim it is to cause confusion and to deceive any and all who might follow his lead. That leaves no room for all sorts of religions. The "all roads lead to Rome" scenario is covered by Jesus who said that all who believe that idea are on a road to nowhere.....they won't know until they reach the dead end and there is no room to turn around. We see ourselves as the ones standing at the exit ramp and trying to show people that the way out is..."This Way....Dead End Ahead!". No one has to take any notice, but even if one person does....it was worth the effort. Noah didn't even get one person to listen to him.

Telling someone that his own religion [Belief System] is inferior, not good, not leading to heaven, not leading to the goal of life [again I am not into semantics; just take your pic]. That your religion is better/best etc. You have no right to judge someones religion [related to soul/spirit; again I am not into semantics]. You are free to do so, but no right. I just give a warning, some people might bite back. Violence invokes violence. Demeaning others' religion is irritating, leading to violence if done long enough. All people I asked about this, agreed.

Do you understand that it isn't about superiority or arrogance...its about life or death. I am not going to worry about hurting your feelings when I tackle you out of the path of an oncoming SUV.....

If I broke your arm and caused you pain saving your life, would you rather be dead?

I'm sorry but I don't tip-toe very well. Its an Aussie fault.

So answering your question: If my God warns disaster is coming. If I meet religious persons and we talk about God, I would stimulate them to continue with their religion and follow "Love", "Respect", "Truth", "Non-Violence", "Righteous Actions". And Be Happy.

And if your gods told you that if you don't warn people of their intentions and they become casualties, that their blood is on your hands....would that make a difference?

The emotional Blackmail only starts when you start telling that their religion is not sufficient etc. like explained above. You can give advice on "bad actions" unrelated to religious belief. But respect their belief [it's their soul contact with God]
[And it shows you have compassion that you want to help others, that is very good. Just give my view 1 thought. And of course you are free to discard it].

You only have to tell people that Jehovah is the God of Jesus Christ and that we become his disciples by telling people the truth. Some people don't like the truth and would rather do the ostrich thing...but hey...that is their choice. It doesn't mean that they can't be told...all it means is that they heard and chose not to listen or respond.

My mindset you can of course not imagine. I love big gatherings. The bigger the better. I stayed for 10 years in a place where 5000 to 500.000 people gathered on daily basis. And I loved it. All religions, humanists, atheist, all denominations from all over the world came together. Not 1 fight I remember. Heaven on earth

My comment wasn't about big gatherings. It was about the fact that you didn't attend our "church" because we don't have "churches" (like Christendom) we have congregations who, no matter where they live in this world, all believe the same things....its called unity and its one thing the world's religions don't have.They will kill their own brothers if their government tells them to. We won't. So are the Russians scared that we will spread our pacifism and prompt all the armed forces to put down their weapons?

You are free to believe. So are others. Just don't impose it on others [unless they ask for it, and want to know]. This I found the key "never give unasked advice". But if you speak, speak positive. Speak about your religion. Don't even think that your religion is better or superior. But definitely don't tell that to the other. Then there is full respect. And God is the one who will guide the other what he will chose. You just follow God "do not judge". Have faith that if you do so, all will come as God has planned.

"Don't impose it"? We do not impose anything on anyone. We preach the same way Jesus preached.....door to door...our message is offered, never imposed. Jesus sent his disciples out by twos to inform their fellow Jews that the Jewish system had lost its way and that Jesus was there to show them the correct spiritual path. Imagine how that went down with the Pharisees.

Oke you are commissioned to preach. That is oke. Good you don't force.
But are you also commisioned to tell the other that his religion is not the right one. Or does the Bible only tell to share the Good Word?

If you don't believe your religion is the right one, then why bother practicing it? The "good news of God's Kingdom" comes with a warning...we share both.

My religion advices to just follow Law in country. So I less likely end up in much trouble. Even if they forbid me to go to meetings by Law, I will say "dear Lord, this is the Law, so from now on I pray to you in my heart"

And if your religion advises you to go against the Law in that country. Yes likely you get in trouble. I wished it were not true, because I prefer happy end. Not troubles. But you must follow your heart. I just wished I could spare you the pain. But if God wants you to go that way, then do it. And may God Bless you.

No man can tell us to stop doing what God commands....and no man can tell us to do what God abhors....like killing our fellow man in a war. No JW ever killed anyone in a war. No JW ever will ever carry a weapon designed to kill a human being. Can other Christian religions say that?

 

[stvdv]

For someone who doesn't claim to know the truth, you sure have a lot to say about what you don't know.

You think? Taking your ques from an ex-JW is somehow going to paint us in a positive light? I think you need to read the posts of this person to determine her qualifications to offer any advice about Jehovah's Witnesses....or anyone else.



Perhaps semantics are important when discussing something across a language barrier. There is a bigger picture but it is not obscured by the details of how it gets to be a bigger picture.

If you believe that one God created all there is in the material Universe, (as we do) then he is one Creator who has given one set of laws and instructions to all of his intelligent creatures. There is an adversary in the big picture whose aim it is to cause confusion and to deceive any and all who might follow his lead. That leaves no room for all sorts of religions. The "all roads lead to Rome" scenario is covered by Jesus who said that all who believe that idea are on a road to nowhere.....they won't know until they reach the dead end and there is no room to turn around. We see ourselves as the ones standing at the exit ramp and trying to show people that the way out is..."This Way....Dead End Ahead!". No one has to take any notice, but even if one person does....it was worth the effort. Noah didn't even get one person to listen to him.



Do you understand that it isn't about superiority or arrogance...its about life or death. I am not going to worry about hurting your feelings when I tackle you out of the path of an oncoming SUV.....

If I broke your arm and caused you pain saving your life, would you rather be dead?

I'm sorry but I don't tip-toe very well. Its an Aussie fault.



And if your gods told you that if you don't warn people of their intentions and they become casualties, that their blood is on your hands....would that make a difference?



You only have to tell people that Jehovah is the God of Jesus Christ and that we become his disciples by telling people the truth. Some people don't like the truth and would rather do the ostrich thing...but hey...that is their choice. It doesn't mean that they can't be told...all it means is that they heard and chose not to listen or respond.



My comment wasn't about big gatherings. It was about the fact that you didn't attend our "church" because we don't have "churches" (like Christendom) we have congregations who, no matter where they live in this world, all believe the same things....its called unity and its one thing the world's religions don't have.They will kill their own brothers if their government tells them to. We won't. So are the Russians scared that we will spread our pacifism and prompt all the armed forces to put down their weapons?

"Don't impose it"? We do not impose anything on anyone. We preach the same way Jesus preached.....door to door...our message is offered, never imposed. Jesus sent his disciples out by twos to inform their fellow Jews that the Jewish system had lost its way and that Jesus was there to show them the correct spiritual path. Imagine how that went down with the Pharisees.

If you don't believe your religion is the right one, then why bother practicing it? The "good news of God's Kingdom" comes with a warning...we share both.



No man can tell us to stop doing what God commands....and no man can tell us to do what God abhors....like killing our fellow man in a war. No JW ever killed anyone in a war. No JW ever will ever carry a weapon designed to kill a human being. Can other Christian religions say that?

Below I just give my opinion. I don't claim to know the truth. Skip whatever feels bad. Be Happy is all I wish for you.

For someone who doesn't claim to know the truth, you sure have a lot to say about what you don't know.

I don't know The Truth. I know falsehood. Someone imposing their truth as The Truth upon others.

You think? Taking your ques from an ex-JW is somehow going to paint us in a positive light? I think you need to read the posts of this person to determine her qualifications to offer any advice about Jehovah's Witnesses....or anyone else.
@savagewind: She has seen the light. What more is needed.

Perhaps semantics are important when discussing something across a language barrier. There is a bigger picture but it is not obscured by the details of how it gets to be a bigger picture.
The bigger picture is "Hurt Never, Help Ever". Stepping on someone's heart by telling them their religion is wrong is "Hurt" = Wrong. Period.

If you believe that one God created all there is in the material Universe, (as we do) then he is one Creator who has given one set of laws and instructions to all of his intelligent creatures. There is an adversary in the big picture whose aim it is to cause confusion and to deceive any and all who might follow his lead. That leaves no room for all sorts of religions.
It's oke if you interpret it this way. But do not superimpose that on me.

The "all roads lead to Rome" scenario is covered by Jesus who said that all who believe that idea are on a road to nowhere
The first and highest commandment "Love God" = "Love Neighbor" = "Love Thyself" [= "Hurt Never"]
First means "you can drop everything that goes against this"
That is the proof "All roads lead to Rome" is correct [All religions are based on God, Love] , discard which goes against FIRST BECAUSE First Trumps All.


Do you understand that it isn't about superiority or arrogance...its about life or death.
Proverb says "Arrogance makes blind. This obvious happened in your case, not seeing what you do is arrogant and is about superiority

I am not going to worry about hurting your feelings when I tackle you out of the path of an oncoming SUV.....

If I broke your arm and caused you pain saving your life, would you rather be dead?
It's not "would I rather be dead", it's more "I am dead" if I would follow your JW advice to drop my religion/conscience/BeliefSystem

I'm sorry but I don't tip-toe very well. Its an Aussie fault.
My teacher says:"Do not say `I am sorry`, that is just your excuse to do it again"


And if your gods told you that if you don't warn people of their intentions and they become casualties, that their blood is on your hands....would that make a difference?
NO. Then I would know "He is testing me", my conscience is the tool to determine if humans or even God speaks truth.


You only have to tell people that Jehovah is the God of Jesus Christ and that we become his disciples by telling people the truth. Some people don't like the truth and would rather do the ostrich thing...but hey...that is their choice. It doesn't mean that they can't be told...all it means is that they heard and chose not to listen or respond.
I do not tell you what to do
I tell you only what not to do = do not tell ME what to do


My comment wasn't about big gatherings. It was about the fact that you didn't attend our "church" because we don't have "churches"
You failed to read my reply correctly. I even mentioned how they were called "Kingdom halls" [translated from Koninkrijkszalen by google]
Russia is Rounding up Jehovah's Witnesses. [see this reply]
[I won't blame you for that, like i said "I am not into semantics" AND we wrote so much, AND it was late [at least in Holland, so probably Australia too].]

(like Christendom) we have congregations who, no matter where they live in this world, all believe the same things
Thanks. You prove here that I am right about what the Dutch JW told me. You told me the same. 1 difference only you spoke english.

....its called unity and its one thing the world's religions don't have.
My master went 1 step further "Unity in Diversity". [So He added "Respect to others' Religion" incl. atheism,humanism ..because Love "Unites" them all.]

They will kill their own brothers if their government tells them to. We won't.
Good for you.
So are the Russians scared that we will spread our pacifism and prompt all the armed forces to put down their weapons?

Wishful thinking I will call this.


"Don't impose it"? We do not impose anything on anyone. We preach the same way Jesus preached.....door to door...our message is offered, never imposed. Jesus sent his disciples out by twos to inform their fellow Jews that the Jewish system had lost its way and that Jesus was there to show them the correct spiritual path. Imagine how that went down with the Pharisees.

If there is a Law in Russia/China to NOT evangelize. Then per definition you impose when you continue to evangelize
In Holland they teach the 4 year old to not impose. This means, and luckily the 4 year old gets it, STOP = STOP


If you don't believe your religion is the right one, then why bother practicing it? The "good news of God's Kingdom" comes with a warning...we share both.
Be my guest to continue "bothering others". But don't blame Putin to get upset. When you see Jesus you can't say "I didn't know". Because I warned you.


No man can tell us to stop doing what God commands....and no man can tell us to do what God abhors....like killing our fellow man in a war. No JW ever killed anyone in a war. No JW ever will ever carry a weapon designed to kill a human being. Can other Christian religions say that?
You don't carry a weapen designed to kill. But you do carry the weapon "your words" to kill a soul/Religion. Do not use that weapon !!!

You are free to do as you like. So am I.
I request you to stop trying to convince me.

Bible says:(mark 6:14)
"if anyone will not welcome you or heed your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town [or forum]"
I will follow this verse from the Bible from now on and not speak to known JW again; like you said "they all think alike (worldwide)"?

I agree to disagree [even if you don't agree to this]
But I strongly advice you to follow verse mark 6:14

Love, Peace and Blessings to us All

 

[Deeje]

You are free to do as you like. So am I.
I request you to stop trying to convince me.

Request granted.

I wasn't trying to convince anyone of anything but the truth. When someone speaks things that are not true, it is natural to want to defend your position. I hope I have at least done that.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Their meeting places were raided by heavily armed police and arrests made. Their Halls were shut down and they are being persecuted with the sanction of the Russian Orthodox Church.

These kinds of heavy handed tactics are nothing new in Russia. It reminds me of the armed guards coming to arrest Jesus. Since when is an armed militia needed to arrest a quiet group of unarmed Christians?

"Critics accuse the authorities of exploiting anti-terrorism laws to pressure the group. “There were no grounds at all to bar the Jehovah’s Witnesses,” says Alexander Verkhovsky, an expert on anti-extremist legislation at the Moscow-based Sova human rights center. “Yes, they insist that their religion is the only right one. But so do most other religions. No one has even accused them of any specific extremist actions.” (Russia’s Justice Ministry did not respond to a request for comment.)

Analysts at the United Nations say the suppression of the Christian movement signals a “dark future” for religious freedom in Russia. Kremlin officials insist, however, that the Supreme Court ruling merely blacklists the Jehovah’s Witnesses organization, and does not infringe upon individuals’ rights to practice their religion of choice, as guaranteed by the country’s post-Soviet constitution.

Many observers disagree. “The escalating crackdown on the Jehovah’s Witnesses without doubt represents Russia’s worst backsliding on religious freedom since the Soviet era,” says Geraldine Fagan, editor of East-West Church and Ministry Report, an online publication that monitors Christianity-related issues in former Soviet countries."

http://www.newsweek.com/2018/06/01/jehovahs-witnesses-939860.html

I guess the law can be manipulated to ban people who are your most honest and hard working citizens?

Makes you wonder what kind of threat they think we are.....? Do they imagine that our message of peace is a threat to Russian security?

Sorry to hear about the treatment of the JWs in Russia.

We are fortunate to live in countries (Australia and New Zealand) where we have come to take freedom to practice our respective religions for granted and don't even need to think about it. Freedom of religious affiliation is a fundamental human right for any human being.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Black magic is superstition, a person can’t harm you by saying you will go to hell, they can only offend you.

It requires great maturity to tolerate those who offend you, yet such maturity is surely the sign of a more advanced soul.

To paraphrase the great scientist Voltaire, “I disagree with what you say but i’ll die for your right to say it”

Hey...this is going to sound petty, so I apologize in advance, but Voltaire wasn't a scientist.
He is also widely misquoted and misunderstood. I'd hazard Nietzsche as the only commonly quoted philosopher/writer who is MORE often misused in arguments.
The most likely source of the quote you're using here is actually NOT Voltaire, but instead Evelyn Beatrice Hall. She wrote about Voltaire, and used the quote is describing his general attitude towards freedom of speech, which has led to it being widely attributed to him.

This is worth a perusal...

https://quoteinvestigator.com/2015/06/01/defend-say/

 

[savagewind]

Request granted.

I wasn't trying to convince anyone of anything but the truth. When someone speaks things that are not true, it is natural to want to defend your position. I hope I have at least done that.

But, you have done nothing here but to "defend your position". Are you different because you do not really want to do it?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Oke that's good to read that JW don't believe in hell. And don't threaten others with that. My mistake. I can still change my post of today.

So please enlighten me.

The Dutch Jehova's told me:
"You following your guru Sai Baba with Sanathana Dharma have no chance to make it to heaven. But when joining JW you can make it to heaven."
This is demeaning to my BeliefSystem. And that is "not done". Also this is "emotional Blackmail", which I can not let pass.

I went to the Dutch JW Church and told God:"If there is 1 JW who does not condemn me as `no change for you to make it into heaven` I keep going there. I asked JW, and all told me "No, no chance". I still argued "but here are 6000 JW, do they all believe the same? I can't believe that". And those JW answered "Yes, we all believe the same".

Even an outside like me wouldn't conflate 'not going to heaven' with 'going to hell'.

 

[savagewind]

Even an outside like me wouldn't conflate 'not going to heaven' with 'going to hell'.

The Catholics seemed to have made up something for that. It's called purgatory.

There are only two ends for humans. To have found The Way (Heaven) and to have not found The Way (Hell). It might not seem like hell for the one who did not find it but it is for someone else....... because we have not secured it for them yet. imo

 

[stvdv]

Even an outside like me wouldn't conflate 'not going to heaven' with 'going to hell'.

I understand. That's more a thing for the "insiders" I think.
You are an atheist. Am I correct to assume you believe:"heaven,hell don't exist, so going there is not even an issue"?
To clear up any dust. I do not believe in "heaven,hell". But in some conversations I hypothetically take it into account.
Sometimes I might go into it fully, and even feel "the heat of the hell" so to speak, in which I do not believe of course.

 

[savagewind]

This sounds more like you misinterpreting what was said with your own bias leading you to wrong conclusions. With every post you confirm that you hear only what you want to hear.
I think I have it all quite clear now. And I was not that far off from the beginning according to these 2 replies:
Russia is Rounding up Jehovah's Witnesses. [post #65 @savagewind: thanks for the info]
Russia is Rounding up Jehovah's Witnesses.. [post #63 @savagewind: thanks for the info]

You're welcome and thank you too.

When you tell a Jehovah's Witness the plain truth about what they are taught to believe in they won't answer the accusations but they @Deeje will try to discredit the messenger.

The Way is knowing what you are doing. Hell is doing but not knowing. IMO

 

[savagewind]

Does nobody want to know who "we" are? We are everyone who can. Can what? Everyone who can do their part to make this planet whole. Not everyone can do something. The Way is about doing it for those ones who can't do it but without hope of any compensations. They will benefit too, I believe. But, the Jehovah's Witnesses are all about eliminating them by God.

If I wanted to, I couldn't make this stuff up.

 

[dianaiad]

What I don't get is that people believe they have the right to proselytize. Even if the Law of the country prohibits this [Russia Law since 2016 changed quite a bit].

what I don't get either is that spiritual life which is an inward path, personal connection with the Divine is taken outside.

In Holland we have a Law. If you go against the Law, they also confiscate property, closing meeting places and forbidding them from worshipping.
[Just follow the Law of the country]

Do you not have freedom of speech where you are? That is, aren't you entitled to express your opinions as you please? Can't you get up on a soapbox and rant away, should you so choose?

.....and isn't proselytizing just attempting to persuade others to your point of view? According to the dictionary, proselytizing is an attempt to convert someone from one religion, belief or opinion to another. In fact, every single politician, debater or arguer of any point, religious, scientific, philosophical or political is proselytizing. We all have the right to do that.

At least, I think we do and at least where I live I can express what I think about it. These rights do not change simply because the topic being discussed is religion...or 'spiritual life."

BTW, your statement that 'spiritual life" is an 'inward path,' and that a 'personal connection' with the Divine shouldn't be 'taken outside,' is your opinion about religion, and by stating it, YOU are proselytizing.

Oh, and by figuring that your opinion regarding 'spiritual life' trumps those of others who go out and preach on street corners is advocating a denial of freedom of speech.

I know, I know, that comes as an uncomfortable thought, the idea that freedom of speech and freedom of religion means that people you disagree with have just as much right to believe, and act according to those beliefs, as you do, but.....hey. If you want to keep your rights, you MUST acknowledge theirs. Even if they annoy you.

It's just part of the deal, y'know?

 

[stvdv]

Do you not have freedom of speech where you are? That is, aren't you entitled to express your opinions as you please? Can't you get up on a soapbox and rant away, should you so choose?

.....and isn't proselytizing just attempting to persuade others to your point of view? According to the dictionary, proselytizing is an attempt to convert someone from one religion, belief or opinion to another. In fact, every single politician, debater or arguer of any point, religious, scientific, philosophical or political is proselytizing. We all have the right to do that.

At least, I think we do and at least where I live I can express what I think about it. These rights do not change simply because the topic being discussed is religion...or 'spiritual life."

BTW, your statement that 'spiritual life" is an 'inward path,' and that a 'personal connection' with the Divine shouldn't be 'taken outside,' is your opinion about religion, and by stating it, YOU are proselytizing.

Oh, and by figuring that your opinion regarding 'spiritual life' trumps those of others who go out and preach on street corners is advocating a denial of freedom of speech.

I know, I know, that comes as an uncomfortable thought, the idea that freedom of speech and freedom of religion means that people you disagree with have just as much right to believe, and act according to those beliefs, as you do, but.....hey. If you want to keep your rights, you MUST acknowledge theirs. Even if they annoy you.

It's just part of the deal, y'know?

dianaiad said: "I wonder why people don't GET that?"
These were your words in previous reply. That's why I replied as I did with "What I don't get". Karma they call it in the East. Or just the 3rd Law of Newton = "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction". So if you want to blame me, first look at yourself. Oh yes, that's what some people do. Pointing at others, and forgetting 3 fingers point back to themselves.
[This scientific Law of Newton is very useful in spiritual life; helps with "common sense" and understanding why and how things happen as they do]

1: I explicitly quote all my messages with "In my humble opinion". So there you are wrong.
2: I explicitly talk about the Law in Russia about proselytizing in this reply. There it is not allowed. Again stating IMHO.
3: If all you can do is criticize because you can't come up with something which makes sense, I know enough.
4: If you find it normal to NOT follow the Law in a country, just go ahead. Don't blame others when getting locked up.

*: I do not proselytize at all. It means convince others of my religion. Kind of difficult if you have not a religion, don't you think? You try to convince others to convert into JW promising them things. That is proselytizing. I don't do that at all. And telling that my opinion (explictly worded as an opinion) is proselytizing is proof that you feel check-mate and just start uttering untrue rubbish.

"What I don't get". This is clearly indicating that I share my opinion. I do not criticize, I just share my feelings.
[hereby using the same words you did, on which I didn't criticize you. So you criticize your own words]
You don't want to see that, so you mis-construe my words. Be happy living this kind of life. I can't live that way.

Just few hours back I was warned that exactly this is how certain christian denominations behave. If they are confronted with their shortcomings they start shouting and blaming the other.

Bless you

Just for your information. I will put you on ignore. First time I try out this option. Curious if it works, and how it works.

Oh wauw RF did a great job. "Ignore" works beautiful. You see the "avatar" with a beatiful clean empty text-area. How neat!

 

[stvdv]

You're welcome and thank you too.

When you tell a Jehovah's Witness the plain truth about what they are taught to believe in they won't answer the accusations but they @Deeje will try to discredit the messenger.

The Way is knowing what you are doing. Hell is doing but not knowing. IMO

Thank you SavageWind. Valuable information for me. Just in time to handle the next message.
And a nice "line" of yours. About "The Way" and "Hell' put in a new definition. Creative.
I guess that is part of yours "Something....Not Nothing"?

 

[stvdv]

Does nobody want to know who "we" are? We are everyone who can. Can what? Everyone who can do their part to make this planet whole. Not everyone can do something. The Way is about doing it for those ones who can't do it but without hope of any compensations. They will benefit too, I believe. But, the Jehovah's Witnesses are all about eliminating them by God.
If I wanted to, I couldn't make this stuff up.

Deeje mentioned you were ex JW. Somewhere back in my mind I remembered this already. So you know a lot about Bible verses I guess. That's always good. My Bible knowledge is quite limited. But I know the important things IMHO.

Thank you for sharing "the Jehovah's Witnesses are all about eliminating them by God". I am quite sure you don't fantasize that, being in a debate post [or you would be a masochist; soon to be eaten alive in debate]. I got some big slaps on the wrist about my "Hell" misinterpretation. But when I read your line, then this is exactly what I picture with Hell used by Christians. So again proof that my reply was quite accurate. And I am glad I didn't take this info out of my reply. I did apologize for wrongly wording it [I didn't know what I know now]. So afterall I think Deeje should apologize to me for interpreting my words wrongly. But as I have stated. That chapter I closed now. It's all fine. Afterall I was not accurate myself also. So we were both wrong.

But thank you SavageWind to tell me the truth about "Hell" [God eliminating humans]. Although if I understood the friendly reply from HockeyCowboy correctly then if humans lead a moral life, they will not be eliminated. Even if they follow other religions like "Sanathana Dharma" they can be the "chosen one" [or however it is called in JW].

Maybe you can help me out. Very long time ago I remember vaguely something about the number 144.000 being saved maximum in connection with Jehova. Is it this that you mean when saying "JW are all about eliminating them by God". Because for sure that would be a big job to eliminate 7500 million humans. Maybe my number is wrong and it was 144.000.000. But then still 7350 millions to eliminate. Maybe God keeps now more alife than in Noah's Ark time, but vaguely I also recall God would not make such a massacre again [rainbow thing]. And definitely God has to kill billions more than at that time[now more humans than at that time].

The more I think about the Bible the more it confuses me.
Do JW really believe in "God eliminating large amounts", or is this 144.000 number something I remembered in the wrong context??
If they do believe in "many will be killed", how then about this "rainbow" promise God made in the Bible?

SavageWind I don't know how long ago you left JW, but I heard that sometimes it means breaking with all your contacts. Happened with me, because of spiritual life. Totally on my own. But at least free. Better free and alone than chained in a group. But not easy. So wish you all the best.

Excellent question of yours "Does nobody want to know who "we" are?". My religion advices/teaches to solve just one question "Who am I". That is enough to get Self Realization and become truly "happy" [called Blissful]. Just 1 question to solve. 3 words only. But might take a lifetime to solve. So I am confident that you are are on the right track now. Not that you need me to tell you, but I just want to tell you "God Loves You very much; even if you are a bad girl now and then. Once I was so mad at God and I cursed Him big time. That night I got a vision in which a voice told me "I am very happy when you get very angry". It was the first time in like 40 years that I expressed my anger. God got the full load. But now I understand "God can handle this stuff, and He loves it when you give it to Him". A little different experience than most Christians share maybe, but this was my experience. Do never let anyone tell you differently "God just Loves you very much" [but don't ask me to define God, still working on that]. And I wish you all the best.

Blessings and Love to us All.

 

[robocop (actually)]

I just wanted to chime in that rounding up Jehovah's Witnesses is a terrible liberalish thing.

Russian style Democracy is Justice order stability if I remember correctly.

 

[savagewind]

@stvdv

What Jehovah's Witnesses are taught to believe.

God's will is for the whole Earth to become a paradise like they believe it was for the real man the Bible calls Adam.

They believe all the words of the Bible are the real words of God and except for the practical matters of life, the Bible is all that a believer in God needs to know to serve God the right way. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

In the late 1800s, God chose a group of people who disagreed with mainstream Christianity for them to be the faithful and discreet slave which it is written would be assigned the task of teaching the people of the Earth God's will be done. Matthew 24:45 Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time?

The people who will submit to the faithful and discreet slave are called sheep and the people who will not submit are called goats. The sheep will be granted everlasting life on the Earth and the goats will be destroyed. Matthew 25:31-46

They believe it is God's will that they convert people to their way. Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

Their way is what the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses say it is. The men of the governing body search the scriptures for the wisdom to teach God's people and they trust that The Holy Spirit is with them. They also believe that Jesus is with them and only with them. They call what they teach 'eating at the table of Jehovah'. If anyone is not taking in the knowledge of the governing body the alternative is to eat at the table of demons.

The people who have had the opportunity to eat at their table of Jehovah but refuse to do so are guilty of a sin deserving death.

Now for the 144,000. They believe it is a definite number and that the total is made up of the people who were personally chosen by God even from the beginning of time and that they will exist with Jesus to judge the Earth. But, every one of them is a person who died after Jesus died.

Any number of other people who respect, trust, and obey the 144,000 and Jesus will gain the life which has been promised by God. The rest will be removed, but their removal will be as garbage is removed. They will all just perish forever.