Russia is Rounding up Jehovah's Witnesses.

[stvdv]

You know I'm a born Hindu right? I have repeatedly stated that I disagree with prostelysing. But shutting down a hall is not stopping prostelysing, its disrupting a congregation of peaceful worshippers. That is a direct violation of religious freedom and right to assembly (that one might be an American thing.) And prostelysing is a form of religious expression, which falls under freedom of speech. Besides this is a debate forum there is such a thing as "time and place."

Thanks SomeRandom, I didn't know you are born Hindu. True, I read you disagree with proselytizing. And of course this is a debate forum. Here we can try out everything. I don't care if people proselytize here. Even in the world I don't care; just their karma. My religion tells me "stay away from proselytizers; if all do this they automatically stop proselytizing". So I don't agree to put them in jail for just proselytizing [unless the Law in that country says different of course]. But I was just making a point that in the real world it is "not done". In virtual world we can practice and find out the limits without getting in jail [I hope so; I saw that anyone can read along and search stuff on RF using google; so I do restrict myself what i type here].

I just read that in China it's against the Law to proselytize. 1 year back I heard Putin already speaking about religious groups are welcome but must adopt Russian culture and if they want to proselytize they are free to go to their own country. I think that was very nice of Putin to say. Other countries have death penalty for that. The talk was very clear. I am sure JW knew it was coming [I was not surprised].

My religion teaches me to obey the Law of the country. If the country has a Law "do not proselytize", then just do not do that. It's so simple. I was 10 years in India, and I followed the Indian Law.

China, Russia, Middle East, Philippines etc. just have different "Religious Freedom". Respect means accept this when you are there. If you don't of course they will stop "congregation of peaceful worshippers". That is same in Holland. You don't follow Law, they put you in jail. We can't go and proselytize in a country that does not want that.[Country list where you can proselytize freely: http://www.brigada.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/OSAC-Proselytizing-Report-Country-List.pdf]

Christians are known to disrespect this "don't proselytize" Law. Because they believe they are above the Law [they told me in the Baptist Church I was; they follow the Law of God I think when it comes to proselytizing]. 1 good example that happened to the Baptist Church I went. They went to proselytize in Indonesia. A Muslim Island and gave the Muslims the Bible + 1 pig. And the man was proudly [sorry arrogantly] telling "you see what we did, we gave them pigs, so they eat pork = their forbidden meat". This felt very disrespectful to me.

Russia = NOT Legal to proselytize [so it should be not a big surprise what happened]: In 2016, a new antiterrorism law specifically regulates missionary activities in Russia, the types of materials that can be used by missionaries, and the admission of missionaries to the country.

 

[YmirGF]

Why would RF, warned anyone about posting something as funny, seeing that in the comment section, at the bottom you can post ( winner ) ( informative ) ( funny )
So why would RF warned anyone, seeing that it's RF which has those such things to post.

I issued quite a few of these prior to the ruling. I loved to award it to poorly thought out posts that were obviously intended to be taken seriously. Since, no one in their right mind would take them seriously, I assumed they could only have been joking. So this rule change may well have been my fault. *hangs head in shame*

 

[SomeRandom]

Thanks SomeRandom, I didn't know you are born Hindu. True, I read you disagree with proselytizing. And of course this is a debate forum. Here we can try out everything. I don't care if people proselytize here. Even in the world I don't care; just their karma. My religion tells me "stay away from proselytizers; if all do this they automatically stop proselytizing". So I don't agree to put them in jail for just proselytizing [unless the Law in that country says different of course]. But I was just making a point that in the real world it is "not done". In virtual world we can practice and find out the limits without getting in jail [I hope so; I saw that anyone can read along and search stuff on RF using google; so I do restrict myself what i type here].

I just read that in China it's against the Law to proselytize. 1 year back I heard Putin already speaking about religious groups are welcome but must adopt Russian culture and if they want to proselytize they are free to go to their own country. I think that was very nice of Putin to say. Other countries have death penalty for that. The talk was very clear. I am sure JW knew it was coming [I was not surprised].

My religion teaches me to obey the Law of the country. If the country has a Law "do not proselytize", then just do not do that. It's so simple. I was 10 years in India, and I followed the Indian Law.

China, Russia, Middle East, Philippines etc. just have different "Religious Freedom". Respect means accept this when you are there. If you don't of course they will stop "congregation of peaceful worshippers". That is same in Holland. You don't follow Law, they put you in jail. We can't go and proselytize in a country that does not want that.[Country list where you can proselytize freely: http://www.brigada.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/OSAC-Proselytizing-Report-Country-List.pdf]

Christians are known to disrespect this "don't proselytize" Law. Because they believe they are above the Law [they told me in the Baptist Church I was; they follow the Law of God I think when it comes to proselytizing]. 1 good example that happened to the Baptist Church I went. They went to proselytize in Indonesia. A Muslim Island and gave the Muslims the Bible + 1 pig. And the man was proudly [sorry arrogantly] telling "you see what we did, we gave them pigs, so they eat pork = their forbidden meat". This felt very disrespectful to me.

Russia = NOT Legal to proselytize [so it should be not a big surprise what happened]: In 2016, a new antiterrorism law specifically regulates missionary activities in Russia, the types of materials that can be used by missionaries, and the admission of missionaries to the country.

Of course. I do agree with what you're saying, mostly. But laws of the land are not infallible. And I will voice my distaste of any law in any country that directly violates what I believe are fundemental human rights. We are in the 21st century it's time for humanity to start acting like adults. Let the Christians do their prostelysing, let Muslims worship in their Mosques, let Hindus celebrate whatever religious festival they desire, leave atheists alone in peace. We all live on this earth together and it looks like that isn't going to stop any time soon. So let us learn to coexist else it could spell the doom of us all.
(Okay that was a little melodramatic but you know what I mean.)

 

[stvdv]

The sleeping bear is beginning to wake up I think. Russia and Putin aren't to be trusted.

I think Putin can be trusted to mess with you if you start messing with him.

 

[74x12]

I think Putin can be trusted to mess with you if you start messing with him.

Many Christians (especially in America) are under the false idea that Putin is on their side.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/who-goes-to-hell/

Oke this Hell thing was my mistake. I can still correct that. [but denying heaven = "Hell" to me]

So I need to know about:
a)Gehenna [according to JW]
b)My Chances to heaven [according to JW]

The Dutch Jehova's told me "Unless you join JW you won't make it to heaven."
So Hell is leftover for me. A grave, no fiery torment [that's improvement compared to Christianity; but cold grave also not my wish]
And you should admit that it is not friendly to deny others heaven unless they convert to JW [Should a JW really fill in for God what God will do?]
[This is still emotional Blackmail and demeaning to my BeliefSystem, so "not done"]
[And knowing about the soul `no chance in heaven` is as bad as doomed to Hell IMO]

JW use the word Gehenna. Just for my information. If I follow my guru Sai Baba and lead a moral life, can I still end up in Gehenna?

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/who-goes-to-hell/
1: Hell:
Hell (“Sheol” and “Hades” in the Bible’s original languages) is simply the grave, not a place of fiery torment. Who go to hell? Both good people and bad people.

2: Gehenna:
Not everyone who dies goes to hell, though. The Bible shows that some people become so steeped in wickedness that they are beyond repentance. (Hebrews 10:26, 27) When such ones die, they go, not to hell, but to Gehenna, which is a symbol of everlasting destruction. (Matthew 5:29, 30) For example, Jesus indicated that some of the hypocritical religious leaders in his day would go to Gehenna

Wow, you looked up some info!! Good for you!
There's a lot to cover here.

"JW use the word Gehenna. Just for my information. If I follow my guru Sai Baba and lead a moral life, can I still end up in Gehenna?"

No. By you saying you want to "lead a moral life"...there's no way. Jehovah God paid a high price for us imperfect humans (John 3:16); it seems you appreciate that! Death is the payment for sin (Romans 6:23), not torment; you will have a resurrection. Most of all humans who have ever lived, have paid the price that we all inherited from Adam... they've died.

Did you read those Scriptures I posted about living on Earth? Matthew 5:5, etc.? You see, that's the hope the Bible holds out for people.... living here, on Earth, forever! -- Revelation 21:3-4..."tent of God is with mankind....and death will be no more". (If death is no more, that means living forever!!)

There are many other Scriptures describing this Earthly hope!

Regarding going to heaven...you have to be 'chosen' for that, like Jesus' apostles. I have no desire, myself, to go. I want to live here, exploring and learning more about this Earth! Maybe, in the future, other worlds! Whatever Jehovah God allows us to do.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Some people use funny as an insult.

Which is pretty funny sometimes.

 

[stvdv]

Hey @PopeADope , hope you're doing well today.
Let me ask you this: does Catholicism think Protestantism is right? Or wrong? What about Protestantism? Does it think Catholicism is right, or wrong? If they all agreed, there wouldn't be these two sets of thought.
Have Protestant denominations at times approved of killing Catholics? Has Catholicism approved at times of killing Protestants? I think you know the answer.
Now let's take it closer to home: have Protestant organizations supported one side in a conflict, and killed adherents of the same faith, on the other side? What about Catholics? During WWII / WWI, can't remember correctly, there was a bishop who told his fellow worshippers: "Kill Germans....do kill them."
Do you think that is really representing Christ, when He told His followers, "love your brother", even beyond that: "love your enemy"?
We love people, we just don't like some of the institutions they are in.
Peace to you.

Then let me ask you this: There are so many denominations in Christianity.
Does it make sense that only JW, or only 7th-Day-Adventists or Catholics are right and all the others are wrong?
Does it make sense any Christian can tell what Religion "God will give a like or smiley"

I am fine if religious people tell enthusiastic about their religion. Makes me even happy. But the moment they demean the other religion that is sad.
That is useless. Bible is clear. Do not judge. Go and speak about your religion. But only your religion, not about others' religion. I can assure you all people will respect you much more. And anyway you don't fail to follow Jesus/Bible "do not judge". Much more safe, I would say.
[Nowhere in the Bible is stated to speak demeaning about Islam, 7th-Day-Advents, Baptists, Atheists2018, Humanists2018....].

Can't we agree on that?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Thanks SomeRandom, I didn't know you are born Hindu. True, I read you disagree with proselytizing. And of course this is a debate forum. Here we can try out everything. I don't care if people proselytize here. Even in the world I don't care; just their karma. My religion tells me "stay away from proselytizers; if all do this they automatically stop proselytizing". So I don't agree to put them in jail for just proselytizing [unless the Law in that country says different of course]. But I was just making a point that in the real world it is "not done". In virtual world we can practice and find out the limits without getting in jail [I hope so; I saw that anyone can read along and search stuff on RF using google; so I do restrict myself what i type here].

I just read that in China it's against the Law to proselytize. 1 year back I heard Putin already speaking about religious groups are welcome but must adopt Russian culture and if they want to proselytize they are free to go to their own country. I think that was very nice of Putin to say. Other countries have death penalty for that. The talk was very clear. I am sure JW knew it was coming [I was not surprised].

My religion teaches me to obey the Law of the country. If the country has a Law "do not proselytize", then just do not do that. It's so simple. I was 10 years in India, and I followed the Indian Law.

China, Russia, Middle East, Philippines etc. just have different "Religious Freedom". Respect means accept this when you are there. If you don't of course they will stop "congregation of peaceful worshippers". That is same in Holland. You don't follow Law, they put you in jail. We can't go and proselytize in a country that does not want that.[Country list where you can proselytize freely: http://www.brigada.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/OSAC-Proselytizing-Report-Country-List.pdf]

Christians are known to disrespect this "don't proselytize" Law. Because they believe they are above the Law [they told me in the Baptist Church I was; they follow the Law of God I think when it comes to proselytizing]. 1 good example that happened to the Baptist Church I went. They went to proselytize in Indonesia. A Muslim Island and gave the Muslims the Bible + 1 pig. And the man was proudly [sorry arrogantly] telling "you see what we did, we gave them pigs, so they eat pork = their forbidden meat". This felt very disrespectful to me.

Russia = NOT Legal to proselytize [so it should be not a big surprise what happened]: In 2016, a new antiterrorism law specifically regulates missionary activities in Russia, the types of materials that can be used by missionaries, and the admission of missionaries to the country.

hey stvdv, you might find this Scripture interesting: Acts of the Apostles 5:27-29. (Notice the Apostles ' reply?)

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Can't we agree on that?

Yes....to a point. Can I ask you a question?

Have religious viewpoints / fanaticisms killed people?

What if a religious group supported a political group to kill you? Would you want me to speak up then?

(OK, three questions.)

 

[Deeje]

Oke that's good to read that JW don't believe in hell. And don't threaten others with that. My mistake. I can still change my post of today.

It took you a while to get the message. What does this say about your comprehension skills and your ability to listen objectively? Please read posts before responding to them. What you have said to date is a very twisted combination of half truths and outright lies.

So please enlighten me.

Do you really want to know?

The Dutch Jehova's told me:
"You following your guru Sai Baba with Sanathana Dharma have no chance to make it to heaven. But when joining JW you can make it to heaven."
This is demeaning to my BeliefSystem. And that is "not done". Also this is "emotional Blackmail", which I can not let pass.

This sounds more like you misinterpreting what was said with your own bias leading you to wrong conclusions. With every post you confirm that you hear only what you want to hear.

Since, as @Hockeycowboy has already mentioned, we do not believe that heaven was ever a destination that God had in mind for his earthly children. He intended that we all live forever right here on a paradise earth. So what you have said is again, horribly inaccurate.

What is your definition of emotional blackmail? We accept the Bible, just as you might accept your own holy writings. If our God declares that the end of wickedness is before all humanity and he tells us to warn people of his intention to cleanse the earth of evil and all who practice it......is it emotional blackmail to sound that warning? If your own god's told you something similar, would you share their message?

We have at this moment, an horrific situation in Hawaii with the eruption of Kilauea, warnings are issued to all affected residents but no one can be forced to act on those warnings. Despite what can be observed, some intend to stay. That is their right, but is it emotional blackmail to tell them what they may be facing in the future? Our decisions affect our future for better or worse, but they are ours to make.

I went to the Dutch JW Church and told God:"If there is 1 JW who does not condemn me as `no change for you to make it into heaven` I keep going there. I asked JW, and all told me "No, no chance". I still argued "but here are 6000 JW, do they all believe the same? I can't believe that". And those JW answered "Yes, we all believe the same".

I can only imagine your mindset whilst attending what appears to be an assembly day gathering, which we have three times a year.
This would be the only times we gather in such numbers. Our congregations are kept deliberately small so that the body of elders can assist all in a close family setting when problems arise.
We view one another as family members. We love one another, not just in our own congregations, but in our entire brotherhood in the world. (John 13:34-35) We are over 8 million strong and we all believe one truth.

Do we believe that worshippers of what we believe are false gods will make it through the foretold end of this system of things? No, we do not, because the Judge appointed by God to carry out the foretold final battle along with his powerful angels, has already said that only those "doing the will of the Father" will live through the end times, just as Noah survived the flood. (Matthew 24:37-39) He also said that those being saved would be "few" compared to the "many" who are on the wrong road. (Matthew 7:13-14)

We do not force anyone to listen, but we are instructed to keep preaching this message until the end. (Matthew 24:14) Everyone has the right to reject the message, but, like it or not, we are commissioned to preach it. (Matthew 28:19-20)

We are only trying to save lives.....OK? We are not a threat to anyone.

 

[dianaiad]

Kids are honest. I like to stay "kid" wise all my life. And I feel the same. If someone tells me "you go to hell unless accepting Jesus" I feel very disrespected. And it's just honest to tell that.

The proper response to that is 'after you,' not confiscating property, closing meeting places and forbidding them from worshiping as they please.

The problem with freedom of religion and speech is that someone...probably many someones...are going to say things you don't like.

On the other hand, you are probably saying things they don't like, and freedom of religion and speech is supposed to be protecting you from them. Thing is, if the only thing that happens is that YOUR freedom to think and worship as you please is the only thing being protected, then there isn't any freedom....even for you, if those who disagree with you get the power to enforce their opinions on you.

I wonder why people don't GET that?

 

[stvdv]

First of all I appreciate that you want to learn accurately what we teach. Actually, we don't tell people that they 'won't make it to heaven,' -- we couldn't -- because we don't even teach that heaven is the hope for mankind. We hold out the hope of living on Earth forever. -- Matthew 5:5; Psalms 37:29; Isaiah 11:6-9 (especially vs.9); Psalms 115:16; etc.

A paradise Earth, with all mankind living under God's Kingdom rule... no more wickedness, sickness, or death.
(Revelation 21:3-4) And we teach that the vast majority of humans will be given this opportunity. Whether they accept it, will depend on them.

That must have been a special assembly, because we don't have churches that big; our regular congregations are usually no more than 150. (Are you sure it was JW's? Some people get us mixed up with the SDA's.)

I mean, we are united in our beliefs -- I can guarantee that what JW's teach in South Africa, is the same as what JW's teach in Scotland, or ____ (insert country here.) Wherever. 1 Corinthians 1:10
It just seems that what was said to you, wasn't from us.

I wish you all the best.

Thank you for explaining.

"Heaven" is just a word for me meaning something like "Living for ever". I believe in Heaven on Earth.

I had JW visit me at home 13 times = 2 members
I went in Holland to "Kingdom Halls" (translated from dutch with google) = 100 members
I went to a congress and there were about all Dutch JW present = 6000 members
[And I do have my grey cells still in order and working, so no I did not mix up JW with SDA's.]

What I said was from JW Holland. ca. 10 years ago.
*: 1 thing they made very clear "If you keep following Sanathana Dharma you won't make it".
["it" being the Goal of human life, like you explained above]
This item was my main item. Hell, Gehenna and other details are "side issues" compared to this

So you were mistaken with "It just seems that what was said to you, wasn't from us.?"
What was said was definitely from JW. And all 6000 JW believe the same they ensured me.

Namastee

 

[stvdv]

Yes....to a point. Can I ask you a question?
1: Have religious viewpoints / fanaticisms killed people?
2: What if a religious group supported a political group to kill you?
3: Would you want me to speak up then?
(OK, three questions.)

1: No. Viewpoints/fanaticisms of course don't kill people, but Hitlers are born and misuse fanaticism leading to killing.
2: Most probably my body will be killed
3: I already asked God to give me 72 hours heads-up for this scenario, so I can peacefully return to God before it happens [I want God to be my savior]

 

[stvdv]

hey stvdv, you might find this Scripture interesting: Acts of the Apostles 5:27-29. (Notice the Apostles ' reply?)

That verse is very interesting. To obey God is not so easy.

As an example: "What you think of genesis 1:29"
I have not found many "Jesus followers" willing to follow this [they always try to find loopholes out of this one].

 

[stvdv]

The proper response to that is 'after you,' not confiscating property, closing meeting places and forbidding them from worshiping as they please.

The problem with freedom of religion and speech is that someone...probably many someones...are going to say things you don't like.

On the other hand, you are probably saying things they don't like, and freedom of religion and speech is supposed to be protecting you from them. Thing is, if the only thing that happens is that YOUR freedom to think and worship as you please is the only thing being protected, then there isn't any freedom....even for you, if those who disagree with you get the power to enforce their opinions on you.

I wonder why people don't GET that?

What I don't get is that people believe they have the right to proselytize. Even if the Law of the country prohibits this [Russia Law since 2016 changed quite a bit].

What I don't get either is that spiritual life which is an inward path, personal connection with the Divine, is taken outside.

In Holland we have a Law. If you go against the Law, they also confiscate property, closing meeting places and forbidding them from worshipping.
[Just follow the Law of the country]

 

[Hockeycowboy]

@stvdv, your "grey cells still in working order"! That's a good thing, lol!

Just FYI, for those who are good, ie., righteous, we believe the Bible highlights two hopes -- the relatively few who are "chosen (1 Peter 2:9)" to rule as kings with Christ in heaven, and those who will live under their guidance / rulership here on Earth.

For those who are incorrigibly wicked....they will just be dead, eternally. Gone forever!

 

[stvdv]

It took you a while to get the message. What does this say about your comprehension skills and your ability to listen objectively? Please read posts before responding to them. What you have said to date is a very twisted combination of half truths and outright lies.

Don't get cocky too soon. I totally agree with what I said "Proselytizing is not done". You can talk about God [if Country Law permits]. But you have no right to demean the religion of someone else. This was exactly what 6000 JW in Holland did to me. And I am not the only one who has experienced this.

Just have a look at this reply [I have a feeling that is perfectly exactly true], and proofs that whatever I said was truthful.
Russia is Rounding up Jehovah's Witnesses.

And then my replies have been very kind sofar. Nothing twisted. And no outright lies whatsoever. All I said sofar was about the essence as written above. No need to get into semantics trying to escape the truth. I know Trump is good at that. But I don't bite when you do so.

Namastee

 

[stvdv]

@stvdv, your "grey cells still in working order"! That's a good thing, lol!

Just FYI, for those who are good, ie., righteous, we believe the Bible highlights two hopes -- the relatively few who are "chosen (1 Peter 2:9)" to rule as kings with Christ in heaven, and those who will live under their guidance / rulership here on Earth.

For those who are incorrigibly wicked....they will just be dead, eternally. Gone forever!

Thank you. You see if you put it nicely, I have no problems at all. You even mention "we believe". That's totally respectful. And I will never even attempt to debate on that. When someone forgets this little word IMO/IMHO, then respect is gone. That is all I wanted to convey here.

And that is what the Dutch JW did. If JW says "I believe you go to hell". Not too bad. If JW says "you go to hell, because Bible says so". Then chances are I silently walk away. Putin won't. Just a bit of advice. You seem to be nice. Don't get yourself in trouble when Jesus is not asking that of you. IMHO.

What Jesus learned me: a)Judge never + b)that verse where they had to take the dust from their sandels, when people were not interested, and told to not go there again. Just leave. Meaning if there is a Law prohibiting proselytizing, just don't go. That's what the Bible advices. [You are better with verses, I don't remember, but you will find that one with the sandels/dust/wipe ...]

Thank you for being respectful.

 

[Deeje]

Don't get cocky too soon. I totally agree with what I said "Proselytizing is not done". You can talk about God [if Country Law permits]. But you have no right to demean the religion of someone else. This was exactly what 6000 JW in Holland did to me. And I am not the only one who has experienced this.

I am simply responding to the very inaccurate things you have said. We do not need man's permission to preach God's message. He will see to it that his purpose is carried out regardless of what men in power do. The first Christians had to go underground when persecution by the Romans began. It didn't stop the preaching work that Jesus commanded. Just as then, so it is in modern times....the more men try to prevent people hearing the message, the more the numbers increase. God does that, not us. Just as the apostle Paul fought through the Roman judicial system for the freedom to preach, so do we. Imposition of laws simply make it more difficult, not impossible.

Just have a look at this reply [I have a feeling that is perfectly exactly true], and proofs that whatever I said was truthful.
Russia is Rounding up Jehovah's Witnesses.

That link did not take me to any particular post...what was your point? All we have is your own version of your experience. How you interpret your experience may not be as accurate as you assume since it was done through your own lens. I wonder what the Witnesses thought of you?

And then my replies have been very kind sofar. Nothing twisted. And no outright lies whatsoever. All I said sofar was about the essence as written above. No need to get into semantics trying to escape the truth. I know Trump is good at that. But I don't bite when you do so.

You believe that your posts are kind? If you are Dutch, then I can believe that. I have Dutch friends and a relative by marriage, so we have had a fair bit to do with her and her extended family. It seems to be a trait among the Dutch that they are pretty 'in your face' when discussing anything. We Aussies are pretty straight too, but if we can dish it out, we figure that we should be able to cop it as well. I don't find the Dutch to be so balanced. Sorry.

I will call out lies or twisted half truths when I see them. Like I said, your version of events has no balance with the other side of the story. You told two straight out lies....that we threaten people with hell and that we tell people that they will not go to heaven. Most of JW's are not going to heaven....we don't expect to. You carried on as if you had not been corrected. You still are.

We will preach as Jesus did, and if you don't like it....well, you don't have to like it. You have choices and rights just like we do.