1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Russia is Rounding up Jehovah's Witnesses.

Discussion in 'Religious News' started by Deeje, May 25, 2018.

  1. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    10,016
    Ratings:
    +5,484
    Religion:
    Sanathana Dharma [The Eternal Religion]
    Gas-lighting I know this word since 2 years now. In connection with narcissism. They make you doubt yourself. You are wrong, not good enough. My father did it in such a way that I had 0% drive to live anymore [and he even said "don't make a fuzz it's just my game". Only when I told him I never want to see him again, I start to get a little interest to live again.

    That's why I do not accept proselytizing anymore. In essence it is the same. You are told that you (your soul/religion/feeling) is not good enough. I am so done with this indoctrination. They really can go to hell with it [in which I do not believe]. If they share positive view of their religion it's fine with me, but do not talk any negative about my religion/feeling/soul/being.

    Thanks for sharing, and I wish you all the best.
     
    #141 stvdv, May 28, 2018
    Last edited: May 28, 2018
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  2. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    38,074
    Ratings:
    +4,366
    Religion:
    An X-Jehovah's Witness
    Thank you. You too. I think that you have given us a good example of why it isn't a harmless attitude of evangelizers to have. God is Love and is for building up souls for good works to do, but if souls are bombarded with, "you are not right and not good enough" it will do the opposite.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  3. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2010
    Messages:
    4,394
    Ratings:
    +1,320
    Religion:
    LDS (the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints)
    I'm glad you got away from such a poisonous situation.

    I think I've finally figured out the difference between propaganda and proselytization, though.

    Besides the fact that I can spell the one and have a heck of a time with the other, that is.

    Propaganda, according to every source I have run into, seems to be about spreading information about something or someone ELSE. It's official gossip. It's what the US said about the Russians, what the Russians said about the US, what Germany said about the Jews, what the Romans said about the Christians...."they eat babies" is usually in there somewhere.

    Proselytization is an attempt to get others to convert to one's point of view.

    Oh, shoot....an example might help.

    Propaganda is when the leader of the government tells his people that the folks on the other side of the world are going to send nuclear missiles to wipe them all out. True, the folks on the other side of the world are being told the same thing about the first group, but just because one of them is actually RIGHT doesn't make it not propaganda. ;)

    Proselytization is when someone says to someone else; I think you should agree with me that it's better to be nice to people than kill them.

    It's that 'third party' and demonization that seems to be the difference. I think.

    Anyway, what you dealt with with your husband was not 'propaganda.' It was pure spousal abuse and I'm glad you are outa there.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  4. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    38,074
    Ratings:
    +4,366
    Religion:
    An X-Jehovah's Witness
    I think that is called wisdom.

    It is a type of propaganda. His point of view is, "I don't like your stuff" and so he will make me feel bad about it. He wanted me to do things his way. When I wouldn't, he would do that thing he does. Abuse is cruelty and violence. He wasn't that. He was crazy at me. It wasn't pure propaganda. That kind is probably always political. I have a game called The Propaganda Game. According to that game, I am right about propaganda being more than what governments do. Advertisements are propaganda. Jehovah's Witnesses use propaganda. It is very common.

    THE PROPAGANDA GAME | Games For Thinkers
     
  5. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    38,074
    Ratings:
    +4,366
    Religion:
    An X-Jehovah's Witness
    Propaganda is biased information for promoting a particular point of view. Biased means unfairly prejudiced and is why propaganda has a bad reputation. Sometimes it is used for good like the Jehovah's Witnesses do. Propaganda is contrary to truthfulness. But, it isn't always lying. It is always exaggerating or bending the truth. Propaganda is the opposite of the plain truth.
     
  6. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    10,016
    Ratings:
    +5,484
    Religion:
    Sanathana Dharma [The Eternal Religion]
    Nice said. Now I see you use the term evangelize. I thought it was the same as proselytize. So googled. Seems different. The Pope's explanation feels good to me. Age 10 I felt this way already. Evangelize in the pure form seems to "share Love for your religion". Proselytize has the intention to convert by using "emotional scare tactics" if I understand it correctly. Curious how you feel about this nuance difference.

    Article defining Proselytize/Evangelize difference: https://aleteia.org/2013/10/03/evangelize-dont-proselytize-and-theres-a-difference/
    Evangelize, Don’t Proselytize – And There’s a Difference
    Pope Francis:“proselytization is solemn nonsense” [I love this strong quote from the Pope telling an atheist]
    To proselytize is to attempt to convert someone to your religion. This simple definition is clear enough, but the word also carries a connotation of using coercion of some sort. To use guilt, emotional blackmail, or psychological pressure to get a person to accept a religion is both immoral and ineffective. Even if they convert, they have done so under pressure, and thus it is not a true conversion.


    Pope Benedict then explained that the Church “does not engage in proselytism. Instead, she grows by ‘attraction,’ … just as Christ draws all to himself by the power of his love.”
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  7. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    38,074
    Ratings:
    +4,366
    Religion:
    An X-Jehovah's Witness
    Yes, I agree. Very good! To live a good example in the name of Christ is to evangelize. Then who wants to can imitate the good example and the power of The Christ grows. But, to proselytize is to draw any sort of person to The Group for which the person is proselytizing. imo The Christ is the leader for God's will be done.

    I want to say that the quote "she grows by attraction" is propaganda. The reason is that he means the Roman Catholic Church grows. But, God's will is that love grows no matter what a person's religious persuasion is. There is a difference.

    The people of the Earth need to be toward faith, hope, and love. Those three are good no matter what a person's religion is. IMO. 1 Corinthians 13:13
     
    • Creative Creative x 1
  8. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    10,016
    Ratings:
    +5,484
    Religion:
    Sanathana Dharma [The Eternal Religion]
    I agree "Actions speak louder than words"
    I like to give people the benefit of the doubt but I think you are right here. They say "Church is body of Christ". If they truly live it then no propaganda I think [She Grows = Christ grows]. But then correct would be "He grows". She indeed refers to the Church as in "the whole organisation" [Bride of Christ, Mother Church]. So you are right, that seems to be propaganda of Pope Benedict.

    Pope Francis talks about "true conversion". That can still be "not propaganda". If "true conversion" is how you have described it.

    Interesting to see the real intentions of the Leaders of the Church. And if they fail to "Live Love by example" then natural the sheep might fail.
     
  9. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    38,074
    Ratings:
    +4,366
    Religion:
    An X-Jehovah's Witness
    Anyone who brings people into their brand of faith is not loving anyone but themselves. IMO Acts of the Apostles 10:34-35

    Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right..."

     
  10. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    10,016
    Ratings:
    +5,484
    Religion:
    Sanathana Dharma [The Eternal Religion]
    1: That's why I love my Master saying "I don't want you to follow Me. Pick any Belief System you like. They all lead to God. I will help you to become a better human".

    2: Thanks for giving this verse. Didn't know this one. 45+46 even emphasize that the gentiles also received the Holy Ghost [example even that God shows no favoritism here to whom He pours out the Holy Ghost even; giving His biggest blessing].
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  11. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    38,074
    Ratings:
    +4,366
    Religion:
    An X-Jehovah's Witness
    I don't agree that all belief systems lead to God. They all lead to a person's end of life on Earth. I think that a person has to search for God whichever way he chooses and that will lead to God. If a person does not care to know God, he probably won't, imo.
     
  12. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    10,016
    Ratings:
    +5,484
    Religion:
    Sanathana Dharma [The Eternal Religion]
    Okay more precise then. All religions have somewhere "Love" in them, so all religions have the potential to lead a person to God. Of course anyone is free to use this possibilty or not. And my Master added, like I wrote, "I help you to become a better human". Bringing it back to your verse from the Bible (acts 10:34-35). "God does not show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right".
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    38,074
    Ratings:
    +4,366
    Religion:
    An X-Jehovah's Witness
    I think that in every religion there are people finding God and there are people who do not find God there.
     
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
  14. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    38,074
    Ratings:
    +4,366
    Religion:
    An X-Jehovah's Witness
    There is some proof that the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses draws people to that religion who are desirous of not dying and living forever. That is the reason some are there. The proof is that sometimes when it is being preached that the end is coming soon more people flock to the JWs and then when the time passes many leave them.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  15. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    12,892
    Ratings:
    +7,025
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    Perhaps living forever in good health and in a paradisaic environment is what any normal person would choose instead of getting old, getting sick and dying in this system? Seriously? This is the Bible's promise not ours. The churches have everyone going to heaven....

    I wonder if this could be because those who "flock" to JW's when they think the end is coming, are simply covering their behinds, just in case.....and because their motives are shallow, they fizzle out? Its called 'sifting'. (Luke 22:31) There is purpose in it, as Jesus said to his apostles..."you are the ones who have stuck with me in my trials" (v 28)
    The cramped and narrow road is not for sissies. (Matthew 7:13-14)

    It's the 'stayers' who get rewarded, not the 'bailers'. God has no interest in those whose interest is in themselves and what they want. (Matthew 7:21-23)
     
  16. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    10,016
    Ratings:
    +5,484
    Religion:
    Sanathana Dharma [The Eternal Religion]
    To avoid funny "you are proselytizing claims" [for those failing to see IMHO below] "The below is just what I feel in this moment". Trash it if you don't like it.

    I agree to your line. The Bible says "the road is narrow..only a few find it". And I think you will never find it in Religion if you look at Religion as the institute. I believe you only find it in Religion if you see Religion as "there is only 1 Religion, the Religion of Love". As in 1st+2nd Commandment in the Bible.

    I am glad that you found it. Do never give it up again. Many "wolves in sheep clothing" will tell you that you are wrong. Some wolves will tell you "come on let's party, you only live once", they prey on your desires, and want to trap you, so their conscience feels less uncomfortable [sheep effect]. Others will tell you "come and join us [proselytize]", they prey on your fear. And are full of fear and insecurity themselves [also sheep effect]. Only few will tell you "shake off all and everything" and be free, trust your own feeling/conscience [lion effect].

    Do not be a sheep [not even follow what I say, unless of course your conscience says it's okay; but double check even that].

    Better to roar like a lion.
     
    #156 stvdv, May 28, 2018
    Last edited: May 29, 2018
    • Like Like x 1
  17. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    10,016
    Ratings:
    +5,484
    Religion:
    Sanathana Dharma [The Eternal Religion]
    To avoid funny "you are proselytizing claims" [for those failing to see IMHO below] "The below is just what I feel in this moment". Trash it if you don't like it.

    That is a good observation. I think it comes from our instinct to "fight till we die", our survivor instinct. `an sich` not too bad. It just proofs they "live in fear". But so do all who are not "Self Realized" in one way or another. Me too. I can't fool myself. But at least admitting I still have fear is my first step.

    Proselytizing I understand. It's fear out of their own insecurity, lacking "knowing the truth". As the wise have said "the truth will set you free".

    Religion will not set you free; except some Religions will set you free of you money and your wealth.

    Fear/insecure based Religions claim "Jesus/savior comes when all are converted". If all think like us, then we should be right, shouldn't we? Insecurity!

    Their conscience tells them they are not yet there. They misinterpret it by "We are not good enough yet, first convert all nations", because they are too scared to let go of their institute. And kill their "guru" so to speak. Give up really everything, also their Believe System is the hardest.

    Also easy to fool myself, saying I become atheist, as is said "kill the Buddha". Giving up "Buddha/Religion" and not "sex, drugs and rock'n roll" might not do the trick.

    So I think it is good to "embrace the Love principle" which helps giving up worldly desires so "Finally killing the Buddha" becomes the natural last step.
     
    #157 stvdv, May 28, 2018
    Last edited: May 28, 2018
    • Creative Creative x 1
  18. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2014
    Messages:
    9,881
    Ratings:
    +5,458
    Religion:
    Secular theist (none)
    Well for Russia the reason is purely conservative. They like to keep their state Church, Orthodox Christianity and a small group of accepted religions. It's always been this way in Russia that whoever "wins" decides, in this case the Orthodox Church won. Last time it was the Communists that won. Before that it was again the Orthodox Church that won. Perhaps the Orthodox will learn the lesson that the Communists learned and start to allow more different views in the future.
     
Loading...