Role of Messiah and Muhammad in Quran

[stevecanuck]

All your statements here were based on what a Bahai said. But never mind. It doesnt matter who said it. Even if its a Muslim who said it, still you must understand someones statement and address his point. Not appeal to another persons word.

Do you have an example. I have no idea what you're talking about.

Many people who have never read the Quran, making expositions on it without reading it based on cherry picked verses on a website, act like this.

"Cherry picked" is not an argument.

The citing of the word Torah in the Quran is referring to the Torah or the revelation that was revealed to the prophets. It does not say it is referring to a particular book or set of books in the Tanakh.

And? The Torah is part of the Tanakh. That's as detailed as the qur'an gets. What of it?

In fact, the Quran clearly says that people wrote by their own hands and claimed it is from God.

I know. What of it?

 

[firedragon]

Islam was a new religion in the sense that it was named for the first time, it introduced new rules, and it introduced Mohamed through whom all clarifications, proclamations, and commands were to be made. If it already existed, why did it take 6,236 verses to restate it?

Yep. I was only telling you what the Quran says.

As you said to another poster, I've been waiting for someone to invite me to do research. Btw, I don't respond to rhetorical questions. If you have a point, please make it.

No problem. The Quran says, Muhammed, and the reader, follow the Milleth Ibrahim. The religion of Ibrahim.

That is why, the Quranic theology is that Islam is not a new theology. It existed even at the time of Ibrahim.

Understand the theology.

 

[firedragon]

And? The Torah is part of the Tanakh. That's as detailed as the qur'an gets. What of it?

The Quran refers to the Taurath. Not the Tanakh. Thats the point.

I know. What of it?

So it is not referring to the Tanakh, or the Bible. It claims people wrote books and attributed them to God. SO it is not referring to any physical book but the original Taurath that was a revelation. You misunderstand the Quran.

 

[stevecanuck]

Yep. I was only telling you what the Quran says.



No problem. The Quran says, Muhammed, and the reader, follow the Milleth Ibrahim. The religion of Ibrahim.

That is why, the Quranic theology is that Islam is not a new theology. It existed even at the time of Ibrahim.

Understand the theology.

Islam only existed in the sense that the early prophets were monotheists. The rest was introduced by the qur'an.

 

[stevecanuck]

The Quran refers to the Taurath. Not the Tanakh. Thats the point.



So it is not referring to the Tanakh,

I don't get your point. The qur'an says it's referring to the Torah. What does the rest of the Tanakh have to do with that?

or the Bible.

That's trickier. The qur'an talks of the "injeel", which is frequently translated as "scriptures", but never really explains what that includes.

It claims people wrote books and attributed them to God. SO it is not referring to any physical book but the original Taurath that was a revelation. You misunderstand the Quran.

The qur'an frequently refers to itself as a book even though it was orally transmitted. Is that hair-splitting?

 

[firedragon]

I don't get your point. The qur'an says it's referring to the Torah. What does the rest of the Tanakh have to do with that?

I didnt say rest of the Tanakh.

That's trickier. The qur'an talks of the "injeel",

Injeel, not the Bible.

The qur'an frequently refers to itself as a book even though it was orally transmitted. Is that hair-splitting?

Yep. It does. So whats your point?

 

[firedragon]

Islam only existed in the sense that the early prophets were monotheists. The rest was introduced by the qur'an.

But again, what the Quran says is that it was always Islam. Understand the Quran first. Dont agree, no problem, but understand it.

 

[stevecanuck]

I didnt say rest of the Tanakh.



Injeel, not the Bible.



Yep. It does. So whats your point?

Have a nice day. Bye.

 

[firedragon]

Have a nice day. Bye.

You too. Ciao.

 

[stevecanuck]

But again, what the Quran says is that it was always Islam. Understand the Quran first. Dont agree, no problem, but understand it.

You go around in circles. That's why I'm out.

 

[firedragon]

You go around in circles. That's why I'm out.

Thats your prerogative. But Im saying directly.

Quran does not refer to any book in the Tanakh, any of the OT canons, or any of the the NT canons.

 

[stevecanuck]

Thats your prerogative. But Im saying directly.

Quran does not refer to any book in the Tanakh...

I'll come back to close this out. According to https://mfa.gov.il/MFA/IsraelExperi...ish Bible is known,and the Writings (Ketuvim), "The Jewish Bible is known in Hebrew as the Tanakh, an acronym of the three sets of books which comprise it: the Pentateuch (Torah), the Prophets (Nevi'im) and the Writings (Ketuvim)".

The qur'an refers to the Torah a few times. Is that not so?

 

[firedragon]

I'll come back to close this out. According to https://mfa.gov.il/MFA/IsraelExperience/AboutIsrael/Spotlight/Pages/Jewish Sacred Texts.aspx#:~:text=The Jewish Bible is known,and the Writings (Ketuvim), "The Jewish Bible is known in Hebrew as the Tanakh, an acronym of the three sets of books which comprise it: the Pentateuch (Torah), the Prophets (Nevi'im) and the Writings (Ketuvim)".

The qur'an refers to the Torah a few times. Is that not so?

Hmm. Alright. Let me give you a response since you asked the question in a respectable manner. Try and understand the concepts and the nuances.

Everyone knows what the Tanakh is. The Tanakh is the Jewish holy scripture. Canon. The protestant OT. The Tanakh has naviim, ketuviim and the Torah. The Torah is supposedly the writing of Moses according to the Jewish belief. If one is to discuss this in length, it would need its own thread.

Quran says "Thaurath". Quran speaks of it some 20 (almost) times. It does not specify who it was revealed to. Quran also speaks of many other scriptures. Very rarely people speak about any of them because these polemics are on famous websites.

Quran does not speak of it specifically associating it with one prophet. It says "wisdom, and the torah, and the injeel". what is wisdom? Hikamath!! In this case, is the word Thaurath a written book picked up from the Tanakh, and Hikmath is just a word that means something? No. Thaurath also means something. The rulings or law. And Quran says "“And affirming what is between my hands of the Torah" that means Jesus came affirming what is between his hands of the Torah, so did Muhammed later on. Quran says the Torah was revealed after Ibrahim, but Ibrahim was given scripture too. Suhufi ibrahima wa moosa. The scrolls of Abraham and Moses. So this is a different scripture given to Ibrahim and Moses. Not the Torah.

Torah in the Quran is described as "denied" in verse 62:5. They failed to uphold it. They failed to bear it. Yahmilu or Hamal means to save, preserve, carry, safeguard.

2:79 So woe to those who write the Book with their hands then say: "this is from God".

The Torah was not preserved. They didnt carry it or save it. They wrote books with their own hands and said "this is from God".

The Quran is talking about that original revelation. Not what they have named Torah later. It is not Gods word, but written by people and they claim its From God. Thats the theology of the Quran.

Hope you can understand.

 

[Link]

Most of Torah and Gospels and books between is from God but a great portion of it has been changed.

 

[stevecanuck]

Most of Torah and Gospels and books between is from God but a great portion of it has been changed.

The qur'an never says how they have been changed. Can you give an example?

The qur'an accuses Jews of killing prophets of old, but never says who they are. Can you give an example?

 

[firedragon]

The qur'an accuses Jews of killing prophets of old, but never says who they are. Can you give an example?

Thats interesting.

Without asking you questions let me make a comment on this. The Qur'an makes two different statements that people mix up as "Jews". It is our imposition upon the Quran.

The Quran uses the word "Yahudi". No problem. We can translate it Jew in my opinion.

How about "Bani Israela"? Why does the Qur'an make this difference? Think about it.

 

[stevecanuck]

Thats interesting.

Without asking you questions let me make a comment on this. The Qur'an makes two different statements that people mix up as "Jews". It is our imposition upon the Quran.

The Quran uses the word "Yahudi". No problem. We can translate it Jew in my opinion.

How about "Bani Israela"? Why does the Qur'an make this difference? Think about it.

No mystery. It's just two ways of saying the same thing. Yes, "bani Israela" refers to Jews. Surah 2 was "revealed" just after Mohamed moved to Yathrib, and marks the first time he addressed Jews. Read 2:40 and 41.

Here is 2:41 - Mohsin Khan: And believe in what I have sent down (this Quran), confirming that which is with you, [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)], and be not the first to disbelieve therein, and buy not with My Verses [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] a small price (i.e. getting a small gain by selling My Verses), and fear Me and Me Alone. (Tafsir At-Tabari, Vol. I, Page 253).

He was clearly telling the Jews to believe in the qur'an (ie: become Muslims).

 

[firedragon]

No mystery. It's just two ways of saying the same thing. Yes, "bani Israela" refers to Jews. Surah 2 was "revealed" just after Mohamed moved to Yathrib, and marks the first time he addressed Jews. Read 2:40 and 41.

Here is 2:41 - Mohsin Khan: And believe in what I have sent down (this Quran), confirming that which is with you, [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)], and be not the first to disbelieve therein, and buy not with My Verses [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] a small price (i.e. getting a small gain by selling My Verses), and fear Me and Me Alone. (Tafsir At-Tabari, Vol. I, Page 253).

He was clearly telling the Jews to believe in the qur'an (ie: become Muslims).

So you are saying that Allah used two different phrases to refer to the same thing?

There is no need to get into a debate on this. Lets just discuss.

First, rather than making such statements positively, why not read all 40 or whatever number of verses that says bani Israela and the 25 or so verses that says hoodh? Just read it and see if you see something that catches your eye.

Peace.

 

[stevecanuck]

So you are saying that Allah used two different phrases to refer to the same thing?

There is no need to get into a debate on this. Lets just discuss.

Do you think I'm arguing the point? I'm not. I'm just answering your question.

First, rather than making such statements positively, why not read all 40 or whatever number of verses that says bani Israela and the 25 or so verses that says hoodh? Just read it and see if you see something that catches your eye.

Peace.

If this is leading to a point, it would help if you made it.

 

[firedragon]

If this is leading to a point, it would help if you made it.

ITs alright brother.

Have a great day.