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Featured Role of Messiah and Muhammad in Quran

Discussion in 'Quranic Debates' started by InvestigateTruth, Jun 28, 2020.

  1. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Quran confirms Jesus was the Messiah.
    Was the Messiah supposed to reform Religion of Moses for the Jews specifically, only? Or Messiah was supposed to establish another Religion, separate from Religion that Moses established, as a universal Religion on earth?
    What about Role of Muhammad? He said, He was prophesied in Torah. Was He supposed to reform the religion that Jesus or Moses had established, or His role was to establish a new universal Religion?
    If you say, to establish a new universal Religion, was He successful? Do you see European and American countries as followers of Religion of Muhammad? Do you see middle eastern, Asians and African,countries as followers of the Religion of Muhammad? Or do you see a failure in the Plan of God?
     
  2. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    Do you see a failure of Plan of God in Bahai religion?
    Two proverbs. 'Kettle calling the pan black.'
    and another one in Hindi "Chhalni kya kahe soop se, jisme sau sau chhed".
    "A seive accusing winnower, which itself has a hundred holes".
     
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  3. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    But this thread is about Muhammad and Jesus.
    If you want you can make a thread regarding the Bahai Faith plan.
     
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  4. Harel13

    Harel13 Well-Known Member
    It's My Birthday!

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    Where?! :eek: *frantically looking around* :D
     
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  5. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Prophecies of Paraclete, and word of God from mount Paran which are mentioned in the Bible, is believed are fulfilled by Muhammad. But in this thread, my focus is really the Quran. What does Quran say about role of Messiah, and Muhammad, and whether or not their role and plan was accomplished.
     
    #5 InvestigateTruth, Jun 28, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2020
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  6. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    1. The question is about the Quran so sticking to it, there is nothing whatsoever in the Quran about Jesus or Muhammed coming to establish a new religion. Zilch.

    2. By saying "He said he was prophesied in the Torah" you have actually opened an avenue of distraction. Yet you raised it, so the respondent should honour it. Now brother tell me which passage in the Quran are you referring to? This would just end up in a completely cloven argument.

    3. No. There is nothing in the Quran that says "reform the religion that Jesus or Moses had established". In fact, his role is described as one who is sent to authenticate the one religion, the same religion of all of these prophets between whom we are not supposed to make any distinction.

    Your last question about "failure in the plan of God" is conditional to "if he came to establish a new religion" as you have defined it so I will refrain from answering it.

    Cheers.
     
  7. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    1. You did not answer what was the role of Messiah or Muhammad in regards to establishing the One true Religion to be a universal religion on earth, for all people in all nations on earth, or only to a specific area. Was Messiah for only the Jews?
    What about Muhammad? Was He to establish the One true religion for all nations, or specifically for the Arabs?

    2. If you are a Muslim, I expect you to know where in Quran says, Muhammad was prophesied in Torah. Just do some search on it and you will find it.
     
  8. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson ζει

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  9. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    Ah the courtesy is as warm as English weather. Thanks for a magnanimous advice to do "some search on it". I was waiting all my life for that little piece of advice which I assumed you would have already done in order to just give a reference.

    Anyway, there are four verses you could be referring to so the reason for questioning which one. But I guess just human interaction is down the drain in your world so I shall not expect it.

    I "believe" you are referring to Surah Al Araf. So that's that, and since there is no real question on this, again, that's that.

    1. Role of the Messiah, is the same as any other Nabi, to deliver the message. Id like to remind you that your question is pertaining to the Quran, so according to the Quran, we are not supposed to make any distinction between them. The reason for me to make statement in my previous post is to answer this question. So you have not understood the answer. They all had the same role. Abraham was called Khalilullah or friend of God. Masih is a reference like that, but doesn't mean they had different roles. The distinction is Gods to make, not us. If you read the Quran you would notice it stating we are following the religion of Abraham, millath Ibrahim. This is the Quran speaking. So all the prophets everyone supposedly had the same religion. Ive said this already so Im just repeating it since you didn't understand.

    16:123 Then We inspired to you: “You shall follow the creed of Abraham, monotheism, and he was not of the polytheists.”
    4:125 And who is better in the system than the one who submits himself to God, and he is a good doer, and he follows the creed of Abraham in monotheism? And God took Abraham as a friend.

    2. The role of Muhammed was to deliver the message.

    Thanks.
     
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  10. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    Haha. Song of Solomon prophecy is one of the most stupid proposals by some of the Muslims who never studied this verse or its surrounding verses.

    Modern scholars never use this verse so this is actually a no go. ;)
     
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  11. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Ok, so, you are saying, as per Quran, the role of All Messengers were to only to deliver the Message of God, which is basically the commands and teachings of Religion of God. As long as They delivered the Message of God, They have done what They were supposed to be done.
    I can understand that. But God must have had a purpose with giving the Message to humanity. Your answer opens even more questions now.
    But, I am trying to stick with the OP.
    1. SO, what was the purpose of God by giving the Message to people?
    If it was to guide humanity, did it or failed?
    2. Quran states, God sent a Messenger to every nation. Does that mean, the message that was given through Jesus, which included the commandments of God, were supposed to be obeyed by all people on earth, or only by the nation Jesus was sent to? How about Muhammad?
     
  12. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    I shall repeat, there is no distinction between messengers. The distinction is God's alone. We don't have a clue. All we know is, there is no distinction between messengers. So this statement should answer your second question. If there were messengers sent to every nation, it is the most obvious thing that it was all the nations which is evident by the sentence itself. All the nations. So your question does not make sense. Every one with the same message sent to all the nations means exactly what that sentence says. So asking "what about Jesus", or "what about Muhammed" makes no sense. The same message of Monotheism, not every single letter, but the message.

    "30:30 So establish yourself to the dheen of monotheism. It is the inclination that God has nurtured the people on. There is no changing in the creation of God. Such is the pure dheen, but most of the people do not know."

    God's purpose is known only to God. Did it fail is a question only God would know. Maybe you may think today something failed, but in "the God"'s makara or plan, what you see as a failure, is the success. Since I am not God I cannot answer it and I don't know.
     
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  13. Link

    Link Well-Known Member

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    Victory is promised in Quran, but what type victory and on what circumstances is unknown. The true religion will be dominant, but will it be most of world accepting God's final Messenger or will they reject him, oppress believers, and face the consequences. Or will it between that and war between good forces and evil forces will occur.

    The outcome is not known, yet the probability is not good, when all the warnings it told us not to embark on, we have.....

    The threats of God destroying humanity are not vain nor are they made just for the sake of showing God's capability, they are genuine threats, that humanity has to take seriously.
     
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  14. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    So, if there is no distinction between any of Messengers, do you mean to say, according to Quran, Today, it does not matter if a person is following Quran, Gospel, or Torah?
    Obviously that is not you believe as a Muslim, or is it?
     
  15. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    If by "Victory" Quran means having more followers, it seems that Christianity is more successful than Islam, as there are more Christians around the world. Strange! A religion like Christianity with a corrupted Bible, has attracted more followers than Quran, the unaltered word of God!
     
  16. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    Your question was about the messenger, not Quran, Gospel of Torah. You just went off topic, and you made a straw man argument.
     
  17. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    The OP is about role of Messiah and Muhammad, and if God plan was successful. How can you separate the Books of the messengers from their role? I thought you said, their role was to give Message. Was the message not in their Book? What happened to their message then?
     
  18. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    Well. Its your prerogative. Your post. It is you who has separated the Wahi from the Messenger.

    Now you have gone completely out of topic. Generally brother, when you come with a different agenda while you word the OP with another end in mind, this happens. Every time.

    Anyway, there is no point respecting the OP is anymore since the creator of it himself is not. So I will of course answer your question.

    1. Your gods plan question I have already answered. So please do not bring it up again, unless you don't agree and then we agree to disagree.

    2. The Qur'an says to "believe in the Taurat, the Zaboor, the Gospel, Suhufi Ibrahim wamoosa, and other scripture sent to other messengers. How come you are not taking all of these scriptures and asking specifically about Torah and Gospel? Did you miss the other mentions in the Quran or did you not know about them? What are you targeting here?

    3. What happened to their message? It is in every single scripture because its the same message of Monotheism. Ive already said this. But since you have an end target in your mind, you are asking it again probably expecting some answer you can hang onto and create another question with an end in mind. Go ahead. No problem. Turn this thread into whatever you have in your agenda.

    Peace.
     
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  19. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    When you point a finger at others, three fingers point back at you.
    Why make another thread when one thread is here where you are accusing others?
    Furthermore, why have you left out Moses from this. Did not he too put a spanner in Allah's plan?
    Or for that matter, Krishna, Zoroaster and Buddha?
    You seem to say that all those which you consider as manifestations of Allah were sent only to put spanners in Allah's plan?
    Why should Bahaollah be exempted from that? Since his message stands corrected by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad.
    Why does your Allah always fail so miserably?
    I do not know whether Mohammad is prophesied in Torah, but ask Bahais. Their 19th Century uneducated (as I am told by another Bahai) religious preacher, Bahaollah, is prophesied in Torah, Bible and Qur'an as well. Additionally, he fulfilled all prophesies in these three scriptures and more. Don't get frantic, search some more; or ask Bahais. They will explain.
     
    #19 Aupmanyav, Jun 28, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2020
  20. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    It seems all you want is to flame a war. You term Torah, Bible and Qur'an and others as well (Zoroastrian, Hindu, Buddhist) as corrupted. Why should not other term your book Kitab-i-Iqan as foolish? Is this what you mean by universal brotherhood?
     
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