Role of Messiah and Muhammad in Quran

[firedragon]

If by "Victory" Quran means having more followers, it seems that Christianity is more successful than Islam, as there are more Christians around the world. Strange! A religion like Christianity with a corrupted Bible, has attracted more followers than Quran, the unaltered word of God!

You made a premise of "If", and built an argument on that. So its obviously a false argument.

Also, "IF" your negation of this so called victory is on the numbers of adherents why do you stop your calculation time to today? Do you think God is time bound and his life ends today and we calculate the numbers today? Thats another false argument.

Strangely, completely and utterly irrelevant to your own OP too.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Quran confirms Jesus was the Messiah.

Who is the question addressed to? You will get a very different answer from Jews, Christians, Muslims, Baha'is, atheists or Hindus for example, A conservative Muslim may not see the Jewish or Christian writings as being relevant for example. So the concept that Jews should have recognized Jesus from the Hebrew Scriptures is a moot point and irrelevant. Jews and Christians are not going to care what Muhammad says because He is not one of their Prophets. Of course a Baha'i would agree with your question.

Was the Messiah supposed to reform Religion of Moses for the Jews specifically, only?

Once again it is it has the same problem. For a Conservative Muslim it probably would not matter. All that counts is Muhammad the seal of the Prophets recited the final Message from God for all time. Nothing else matters.

Or Messiah was supposed to establish another Religion, separate from Religion that Moses established, as a universal Religion on earth?

Islam is that religion for Muslims, is it not?

What about Role of Muhammad? He said, He was prophesied in Torah. Was He supposed to reform the religion that Jesus or Moses had established, or His role was to establish a new universal Religion?

But our conservative Muslim may believe the Torah is corrupted. The true Torah that has been lost had Muhammad's name clearly written but corruption caused the Jewish scribes to alter the text.

If you say, to establish a new universal Religion, was He successful?

Islam is the fastest growing religion on the planet set to overtake Christianity as the largest religion in the world within 50 years. Muhammad was successful.

Do you see European and American countries as followers of Religion of Muhammad?

Yes.

Do you see middle eastern, Asians and African,countries as followers of the Religion of Muhammad?

Yes.

Or do you see a failure in the Plan of God?

Remember how the Unbelievers plotted against thee, to keep thee in bonds, or slay thee, or get thee out (of thy home). They plot and plan, and Allah too plans; but the best of planners is Allah. Surah 8:30

 

[InvestigateTruth]

It seems all you want is to flame a war. You term Torah, Bible and Qur'an and others as well (Zoroastrian, Hindu, Buddhist) as corrupted. Why should not other term your book Kitab-i-Iqan as foolish? Is this what you mean by universal brotherhood?

Who calls them corrupted? Me?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

When you point a finger at others, three fingers point back at you.
Why make another thread when one thread is here where you are accusing others?

It is in Quranic debate section. I want to debate what Quran specifically says about Jesus and Muhammad roles, and the purpose of Allah of sending Them based on what Quran says.
I am not saying if They failed or succeeded. I want to see what Quran says.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Who is the question addressed to?

It is to be answered from Quran. Anyone who can quote from verses of Quran to answer the OP questions. This is in Quranic debates section.

Once again it is it has the same problem. For a Conservative Muslim it probably would not matter. All that counts is Muhammad the seal of the Prophets recited the final Message from God for all time. Nothing else matters.

Right, maybe for conservative Muslims doesnt matter. But, there are many verses in Quran regarding Jesus and His Revelation, as well as previous Prophets. So, apparently it matters to Allah.

Islam is that religion for Muslims, is it not?

I have seen many Muslims believing Islam to be the only true Religion, and the Quran is the only true and uncorrupted Book of God. It is fair to ask, if that's true, majority of people of the world are not following Quran. If the plan and purpose of God, is to make Islam the dominant religion on earth, so far it seems, the plan failed, doesnt it?
Considering almost 1500 years passed from begining of revelation of Quran, it does not seem very likely for Islam to overtake the world, does it?

It had enough time to do what it could do.

But our conservative Muslim may believe the Torah is corrupted. The true Torah that has been lost had Muhammad's name clearly written but corruption caused the Jewish scribes to alter the text.

That is debatable. Quran states, they can find Muhammad described in Torah and Injil which is with them.

Islam is the fastest growing religion on the planet set to overtake Christianity as the largest religion in the world within 50 years. Muhammad was successful.

It is debatable. First which Islam? Sunni, Shia? Many Sunnis dont even consider Shias as a Muslim, and Vise versa.
It seems Atheism and disbelief is the fastest growing.

 

[Link]

The OP is about role of Messiah and Muhammad, and if God plan was successful. How can you separate the Books of the messengers from their role? I thought you said, their role was to give Message. Was the message not in their Book? What happened to their message then?

See 5:67. The message is not the book but the clarification of the book occurs through the Sunnah.

Nubuwa = Their book and the descent of it from higher worlds to this world, is all Nubuwa. Resalah can include some of Nubuwa but the clarification is usually paraphrased in their own words.

For example, Wilayah of Ali (a) is in Quran, but 5:67 still tells the Messenger he must convey that which has been revealed or else would not have conveyed the message to humanity.

 

[Link]

It can be said Resalah works in conjunction with Nubuwa, but for the 12 Imams (a), they worked with the Quran and their messages were keeping in mind and working with the Quran.

 

[Link]

As for 4:54, there is a hadith that says "book" is Nubuwa, "wisdom" is the Resalah (message) and mulkan atheemaa (great authority/kingship/kingdom) is Imamate (leadership).

 

[PruePhillip]

Quran confirms Jesus was the Messiah.
Was the Messiah supposed to reform Religion of Moses for the Jews specifically, only? Or Messiah was supposed to establish another Religion, separate from Religion that Moses established, as a universal Religion on earth?
What about Role of Muhammad? He said, He was prophesied in Torah. Was He supposed to reform the religion that Jesus or Moses had established, or His role was to establish a new universal Religion?
If you say, to establish a new universal Religion, was He successful? Do you see European and American countries as followers of Religion of Muhammad? Do you see middle eastern, Asians and African,countries as followers of the Religion of Muhammad? Or do you see a failure in the Plan of God?

The Arabs, under Mohammed, took the Jewish Old Testament, the Christian New
Testament, fused it with Arabic folklore and culture and created their own religion
to help them kill and conquer.
Whether the Koran "confirms" Jesus or not is of no relevance.

 

[firedragon]

The Arabs, under Mohammed, took the Jewish Old Testament, the Christian New
Testament, fused it with Arabic folklore and culture and created their own religion
to help them kill and conquer.
Whether the Koran "confirms" Jesus or not is of no relevance.

See, completely lack of knowledge and absolute ignorance fuels this kind of rhetoric and irrelevance to any topic.

 

[Aupmanyav]

It is in Quranic debate section. I want to debate what Quran specifically says about Jesus and Muhammad roles, and the purpose of Allah of sending Them based on what Quran says. I am not saying if They failed or succeeded. I want to see what Quran says.

Who are you to judge Allah, prophets Moses, Jesus and Mohammad (May peace be on them)? If you say that Allah and his prophets / son / messenger were not able to protect their own words, then you are not abusing Jesus or Mohammad, you are abusing Allah himself. Where is your faith? What is the then the guarantee that Bahaollah, his progeny and your House of Justice have not corrupted / deformed / falsified Allah's message? You are an enemy of the religion and God of Prophet Abraham (Ibrahim - Ṣallā Allāhu ʿalayhi wa-sallam). You seem to have an ego as great as that of Bahaolloah.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The Arabs, under Mohammed, took the Jewish Old Testament, the Christian New
Testament, fused it with Arabic folklore and culture and created their own religion
.

I agree with this. But nothing wrong with it. It also does not disprove Muhammah. He could have done it according to commands He received from God.

.

to help them kill and conquer.
.

I disagree with this part. His purpose certainly was not to kill and conquare. Although He did have instruction for holy war for defending purpose only. Moses did similar war as well.

.

Whether the Koran "confirms" Jesus or not is of no relevance.

I offer it would be interesting to know view of the Quran on role of Jesus as Messiah.

 

[whirlingmerc]

Quran confirms Jesus was the Messiah.
Was the Messiah supposed to reform Religion of Moses for the Jews specifically, only? Or Messiah was supposed to establish another Religion, separate from Religion that Moses established, as a universal Religion on earth?
What about Role of Muhammad? He said, He was prophesied in Torah. Was He supposed to reform the religion that Jesus or Moses had established, or His role was to establish a new universal Religion?
If you say, to establish a new universal Religion, was He successful? Do you see European and American countries as followers of Religion of Muhammad? Do you see middle eastern, Asians and African,countries as followers of the Religion of Muhammad? Or do you see a failure in the Plan of God?

Isalm has Jesus as Messiah, sinless, virgin born, coming again.

The Old testament also has the themes of King David having a son to rule forever in Messiah

The death and resurrection of Messiah as the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world is key to Old and New testament

Jesus as Son of God and the adoption of believers and 'the marriage supper of the lamb" also key

There is also a serpent motif, and the seed of the woman crushes the head of the serpent in the Bible In the Koran 5 mentions of snake 4 of 5 are Moses throwing down his staff turning into a serpent 1 of 5 being evil fleeing from God like serpents and no mention of the messiah crushing the head of the serpent

 

[PruePhillip]

I agree with this. But nothing wrong with it. It also does not disprove Muhammah. He could have done it according to commands He received from God.
I disagree with this part. His purpose certainly was not to kill and conquare. Although He did have instruction for holy war for defending purpose only. Moses did similar war as well.
I offer it would be interesting to know view of the Quran on role of Jesus as Messiah.

There's a ton of stuff on the net about the differences between Jesus and Mohammed.
And here was not talking about Moses, or the Pope or the Crusades - just pure Christianity
as lived by Jesus and the Apostolic Church.
I have no problem believing Mohammed "existed" - I see the effects of that in Arab societies
to this day.
God did not command a NEW NEW TESTAMENT, obviating the Gospels as if He changed
His mind. Mohammed was a warlord, and perhaps the world's first Islamic Jew killer.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

There's a ton of stuff on the net about the differences between Jesus and Mohammed.
And here was not talking about Moses, or the Pope or the Crusades - just pure Christianity
as lived by Jesus and the Apostolic Church.
I have no problem believing Mohammed "existed" - I see the effects of that in Arab societies
to this day.
God did not command a NEW NEW TESTAMENT, obviating the Gospels as if He changed
His mind. Mohammed was a warlord, and perhaps the world's first Islamic Jew killer.

I don't know why God could not send a messenger after Jesus, or why God could not command a NEW NEW TESTAMENT. The God in Torah, is very concerned with what everyone is doing, and kept commanding people through different prophets. So, I don't know why such a God, stops talking to prophets or giving commands again and again.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Isalm has Jesus as Messiah, sinless, virgin born, coming again.

The Old testament also has the themes of King David having a son to rule forever in Messiah

The death and resurrection of Messiah as the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world is key to Old and New testament

Jesus as Son of God and the adoption of believers and 'the marriage supper of the lamb" also key

There is also a serpent motif, and the seed of the woman crushes the head of the serpent in the Bible In the Koran 5 mentions of snake 4 of 5 are Moses throwing down his staff turning into a serpent 1 of 5 being evil fleeing from God like serpents and no mention of the messiah crushing the head of the serpent

Yes, the Messiah was supposed to take the sins of the world, and bring peace in the world. But outwardly it didn't seem any of that happened on the worldwide scale. After Jesus there were still war, and sin in the world. Then, Messiah had to return to fulfill what was promised. The Christian's had become divided after Jesus left. Different Chriatian denomination had their own ways of teaching and interpreting Bible. There was a period of cruel Pops as well some centuries ago.
Quran which claimed to be from God, claimed the Jews and Chrisitan leaders misinterpreted the Holy Books. So, that seems to be one of the main reasons another Messenger (Muhammad) was sent to people, with a new Scripture.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Well. Its your prerogative. Your post. It is you who has separated the Wahi from the Messenger.

Now you have gone completely out of topic. Generally brother, when you come with a different agenda while you word the OP with another end in mind, this happens. Every time.

Anyway, there is no point respecting the OP is anymore since the creator of it himself is not. So I will of course answer your question.

1. Your gods plan question I have already answered. So please do not bring it up again, unless you don't agree and then we agree to disagree.

2. The Qur'an says to "believe in the Taurat, the Zaboor, the Gospel, Suhufi Ibrahim wamoosa, and other scripture sent to other messengers. How come you are not taking all of these scriptures and asking specifically about Torah and Gospel? Did you miss the other mentions in the Quran or did you not know about them? What are you targeting here?

3. What happened to their message? It is in every single scripture because its the same message of Monotheism. Ive already said this. But since you have an end target in your mind, you are asking it again probably expecting some answer you can hang onto and create another question with an end in mind. Go ahead. No problem. Turn this thread into whatever you have in your agenda.

Peace.

You say, the message of God is basically the same, and it came to people through different messengers. Jesus and Muhammad were 2 of them.
Let's focus on these two, as Quran gives a lot of details on Them. We cannot discuss every single prophet or messenger that had come, it will take forever.

Maybe the way you explain it makes sense to you, but it doesnt make sense to me, so, if you don't mind make the following clear:
You stated the message of Jesus was for all humanity (not just for Jews). At the same time you believe Jesus message got distorted because His Book got corrupted. So, how do you think, the message that God had intended to reach to all humanity, could reach to all people of the world correctly?
Indirectly, you are saying God failed, but explicitly you avoid to say that.
If you say, the answer is, when Jesus Book got corrupted, God sent the Quran having same message, I ask you, between revelation of Jesus and Quran, there were almost 600 years delay! Thus, with your belief All people who lived in those 600 years, were left with a corrupted message. Maybe you don't care. But what you are saying, is basically to say God failed to give His message correctly to all those people during the 600 years.

 

[PruePhillip]

I don't know why God could not send a messenger after Jesus, or why God could not command a NEW NEW TESTAMENT. The God in Torah, is very concerned with what everyone is doing, and kept commanding people through different prophets. So, I don't know why such a God, stops talking to prophets or giving commands again and again.

The Law of Moses was not intended. God gave the Law only after the Hebrews rebelled
in Exodus. Those that lived before Moses did not live under law. If you read the lives of
people like David, for instance, they didn't really live under the law either.
God promised something greater than the prohibition of laws, and that was love - the OT
promise was that there would be a "new covenant" and it would be "written in your hearts"
That love was for the Messiah.
In Egypt the people were to take an unblemished lamb into their homes for three days
before they killed it and daubed it blood upon the lintel. Three days in the home makes it
just that harder to kill (as I have found with little lambs) as you love it more. Jesus came
as the "Lamb of God" and shed His blood to save us from the "angel of death."
What role therefor has an Arab warlord, with Old Testament style laws, got to play in all this?
None at all.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The Law of Moses was not intended. God gave the Law only after the Hebrews rebelled
in Exodus. Those that lived before Moses did not live under law. If you read the lives of
people like David, for instance, they didn't really live under the law either.
God promised something greater than the prohibition of laws, and that was love - the OT
promise was that there would be a "new covenant" and it would be "written in your hearts"
That love was for the Messiah.
In Egypt the people were to take an unblemished lamb into their homes for three days
before they killed it and daubed it blood upon the lintel. Three days in the home makes it
just that harder to kill (as I have found with little lambs) as you love it more. Jesus came
as the "Lamb of God" and shed His blood to save us from the "angel of death."
What role therefor has an Arab warlord, with Old Testament style laws, got to play in all this?
None at all.

The religion that Moses had brought, after about 1500 years had lost its Spirit. It became like a lifeless body. People were outwardly acting on laws of Moses, but the cruelty was everywhere. In such a time, Jesus came. His mission was to blow Spirit of love and faith in the religion, to revive it, so, by Faith and Love of God, people can be saved from imorality, cruelty and sin. He completed His mission, but when centuries passed, the Chrisitans forgot the message. They divided religion of Jesus in to many sects, and had war with each other. The Pops were ruling with cruelty. Thus, Muhammad appeared among the ignorant tribes of Arabs. He said He is a new messenger, and His mission is to give same message that Jesus had originally given, which had become distorted and lost afterwards.

 

[PruePhillip]

The religion that Moses had brought, after about 1500 years had lost its Spirit. It became like a lifeless body. People were outwardly acting on laws of Moses, but the cruelty was everywhere. In such a time, Jesus came. His mission was to blow Spirit of love and faith in the religion, to revive it, so, by Faith and Love of God, people can be saved from imorality, cruelty and sin. He completed His mission, but when centuries passed, the Chrisitans forgot the message. They divided religion of Jesus in to many sects, and had war with each other. The Pops were ruling with cruelty. Thus, Muhammad appeared among the ignorant tribes of Arabs. He said He is a new messenger, and His mission is to give same message that Jesus had originally given, which had become distorted and lost afterwards.

Yes and no, IMO.
There was no "spirit" in the OT - you read Deut' and Levit' and you see a legalistic
system designed for the Jews. Jesus actually said this was "from your fathers"
meaning a lot of this stuff CAME FROM THE JEWS THEMSELVES (ie divorce
laws and dietary regulations.)
Job spoke of a time when his "Redeemer" who lived in his day but would "stand
upon the earth in the latter days."
Jacob said the Messiah would come from the tribe of Judah and his coming
would end the Jewish nation.
And so on.

Christianity isn't corrupted - it's still here. When Jesus spoke of persecutions from
people who think they are doing the right thing He could easily have meant those
"Christians" who hunted down and killed people who still lived and worshipped as
Jesus meant them to (after 4th Century) Jesus did not entertain the idea that the
world would obey Him, regardless of whether they called themselves Christian or
otherwise.
I don't see anything in Mohammed's message that points us to Christ. In fact he
negated that message.