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Role of Messiah and Muhammad in Quran
- Thread starter InvestigateTruth
- Start date
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Can Bahaollah or you schedule Allah to send the next manifestation? What Bahaollah said was not truth. Allah sent Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to Qadian, India, after he sent Bahaollah. Mirza was the Mahdi. And he sent two to India in form of Shirdi Sai and Puttaparthy Sai. He sent Swami Vivekananda, Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadutta Maharaj. Currently we have Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, Sadhguru and Amritanandamayi. You are too constipative about Allah sending prophets / sons / messengers / manifestations / mahdis. You hardly have any idea of why, when and whom Allah sends to guide people on earth. Who has been misguiding you?
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firedragon
Veteran Member
How do you know what I believe? Can you explain?
I hope you understand the question.
InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
If you remember in another thread, you were debating about that the Torah and Injil that exists are corrupted version of the original revelations of Moses and Jesus. If what I am saying is not true, correct me here. Do you believe the Christian new testament got corrupted or it is inspired by God and is legitimate? How about the Torah that is with the Jews? Is that a legitimate Holy Book, or it is corrupted by scribes? Or are you undecided?
firedragon
Veteran Member
Thats a whole other discussion brother. And I never said "Torah and Injil that exists are corrupted version of the original revelations of Moses and Jesus". Never. You can start a new thread to discuss this particular matter if you like. One cannot dismiss or just give some rhetorical one post answer to this subject.
Certainty or not, one has to honestly explore the question.
InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
Agreed, the Religion that Moses brought was legislative. It had many laws and works. The Religion that Jesus brought had less laws and works. This is due to their missions, which was in accordance to the needs of the people in their Time. People of Moses needed more laws and works. People of Jesus needed to learn forgiveness, faith and spirituality. But whatever their teaching was, they claimed it came from God. Jesus repeatedly said He was doing the work of the Father who sent Him. Likewise Muhammad appeared at a time when people needed certain laws and ordinances according their own Age. It was a different time than when Jesus came, thus, a different set of laws and teachings was required.
Muhammad did not point people to the person of Jesus, but He pointed them to the God who had sent Jesus and Moses before, saying, that same God now is giving the revelation of Quran, which is better to be followed for it's own Time.
Christianity is still here, but, Jesus Himself predicted that there will be many false teachers among Christians. The idea of dividing Religion into many conflicting sects is not what Jesus would have approved though.
firedragon
Veteran Member
According to what? Im just curious because Jesus said that he came to strengthen the law, not reduce it or at least that's what is said in the Bible. Thats if you are referring to Jesus talking about the "Law". He increases the law of divorce by making new laws more severe than a divorce paper in the "Law", fornication became looking at a woman lustfully,
If you are speaking about the Eye for an Eye episode, then Jesus doesn't reduce the law, he completely turns it upside down by saying do not resist the evil person and to give the other cheek. Complete reversal. This is much more severe, not a reduction in laws.
InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
"'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me." Quran 3:50
firedragon
Veteran Member
Hmm. You are quoting the Quran!
Investigate truth, verses are sometimes abrogated verses like the fighting verses are all situational and depend on the situation. There is a hadith that a latter Imam contradicted previous Imam on a ruling and then another later Imam said, it's because Sunnah also abrogates Sunnah just like Quran. The thing with Quran, no verse is ever completely abrogated but depends on situation.
If anyone believes taxes is going to remain the same as the Prophet practiced with the technology, education, roads, infrastructure, healthcare, and other things, when Imam Mahdi comes, they are fools and don't understand Quran or Sunnah in this regard.....
The Quran is written in a way that it explains the reasons for the Sunnah while Sunnah sometimes is more specific. However Quran has been built over 23 years, and nothing exists like this writing at all, and there are many verses that talk about the role of the Messenger for all times and eventually his message is meant for all humans. Also the dominance of his guidance is alluded in Quran many places, and it's linked with the twelve luminaries that represent the founder to be Twelve...
Also in Suratal Araaf, it's linked with the twelve branches and successors of Moses tree of guidance after him, the issue of that God has authority over heavens and earth, and there is whole theme about the universality of Mohammad's Nubuwa.
As for the Torah, Moses prays for the one who God will send to relief the knot on his tongue, the reaction of God that he has Aaron and get's upset with Moses because Moses was looking too far down the future for this, while, he has Aaron and should strive that people be ready and have hope, that Aaron relieves the knot on his tongue instead.
The Quran although doesn't mention Moses prayer, that is the implicit nature of Quran, it paraphrase the prayer of Moses' with Aaron many ways, that is obviously proven by the fact that the knot to be relieved by the one who God will send in the future to the whole world, is not relieving a physical knot, and the Quran has a whole theme about the prayer of Moses in regards to Aaron.
This all flowing with regards to Ishmael and the Twelve Princes promised in his offspring which suggests Mohammad (s) authority as a King followed by twelve Successors (princes).
Also, in flow of that, the one that is like Moses' has to be a founder, because the successors of Moses' are many and Aaron is already a Prophet and Messenger like Moses' so this is not the meaning, that it's just another Messenger, but that there will be a founder followed by twelve Successors as well.
And the word tribe in Torah is like the word Asbat in Arabic, it can mean tribe or it can mean a split from a body of water like a river and the Quran alludes that this was one of the Tahreef occurred by constantly reminding of the miracle of splitting twelve springs by Moses staff which suggests that means verses like the doors and gates to heaven having the names of the Tribes of Israel, can mean the river splits and be referring to the twelve successors who are doors to heaven.....
In Arabic Asbat also means branches, but more on the theme of tree branches, but parable wise can mean a tribe because a tribe is like branch linking back to a root.
But in Quran for sure Asbat is used to denote the branches of the tree of guidance and Prophethood. This is also emphasized by the authentic Sunni hadith "God loves Hussain and loves who loves Hussain, indeed Hussain is one of the asbat (branches)" - Mohammad (s).
Also the Gospels talk about the position of Jesus true, but you suppose to keep in mind he is just a star of guidance from the family of David/Aaron/Moses and there is many morning stars of guidance who had this position and he is showing the central purpose of the previous of revelations were meant so we hold to the leader of guidance who is the spirit from God and holy spirit and word of light brought to life.
It's said in a way, that while Jesus' is leaving, it has to be that Elijah came back and the reason for it (who was also witnessed to be seen by many in beginning of Jesus' mission) and that implies that someone like them (Elijah) was there before Jesus who was John because there has to be a guide, and so when he talks about the comforter to come, it's obvious he is saying I go now but someone my position will come in the open again, prepare for it.
But the question arises what happens between then and now, and so he talks about the holy spirit being sent till then, another comforter who will not be sent by God but be there till the other comforter talked about is sent.
The one who God continues to channel his light and holy power through was Elijah and the one predicted to be sent is obviously Mohamad (s).
This is vividly clear for me. And may God bless all the Messengers and Prophets and chosen ladies and guides he has chosen from Adam till now.
If anyone believes taxes is going to remain the same as the Prophet practiced with the technology, education, roads, infrastructure, healthcare, and other things, when Imam Mahdi comes, they are fools and don't understand Quran or Sunnah in this regard.....
The Quran is written in a way that it explains the reasons for the Sunnah while Sunnah sometimes is more specific. However Quran has been built over 23 years, and nothing exists like this writing at all, and there are many verses that talk about the role of the Messenger for all times and eventually his message is meant for all humans. Also the dominance of his guidance is alluded in Quran many places, and it's linked with the twelve luminaries that represent the founder to be Twelve...
Also in Suratal Araaf, it's linked with the twelve branches and successors of Moses tree of guidance after him, the issue of that God has authority over heavens and earth, and there is whole theme about the universality of Mohammad's Nubuwa.
As for the Torah, Moses prays for the one who God will send to relief the knot on his tongue, the reaction of God that he has Aaron and get's upset with Moses because Moses was looking too far down the future for this, while, he has Aaron and should strive that people be ready and have hope, that Aaron relieves the knot on his tongue instead.
The Quran although doesn't mention Moses prayer, that is the implicit nature of Quran, it paraphrase the prayer of Moses' with Aaron many ways, that is obviously proven by the fact that the knot to be relieved by the one who God will send in the future to the whole world, is not relieving a physical knot, and the Quran has a whole theme about the prayer of Moses in regards to Aaron.
This all flowing with regards to Ishmael and the Twelve Princes promised in his offspring which suggests Mohammad (s) authority as a King followed by twelve Successors (princes).
Also, in flow of that, the one that is like Moses' has to be a founder, because the successors of Moses' are many and Aaron is already a Prophet and Messenger like Moses' so this is not the meaning, that it's just another Messenger, but that there will be a founder followed by twelve Successors as well.
And the word tribe in Torah is like the word Asbat in Arabic, it can mean tribe or it can mean a split from a body of water like a river and the Quran alludes that this was one of the Tahreef occurred by constantly reminding of the miracle of splitting twelve springs by Moses staff which suggests that means verses like the doors and gates to heaven having the names of the Tribes of Israel, can mean the river splits and be referring to the twelve successors who are doors to heaven.....
In Arabic Asbat also means branches, but more on the theme of tree branches, but parable wise can mean a tribe because a tribe is like branch linking back to a root.
But in Quran for sure Asbat is used to denote the branches of the tree of guidance and Prophethood. This is also emphasized by the authentic Sunni hadith "God loves Hussain and loves who loves Hussain, indeed Hussain is one of the asbat (branches)" - Mohammad (s).
Also the Gospels talk about the position of Jesus true, but you suppose to keep in mind he is just a star of guidance from the family of David/Aaron/Moses and there is many morning stars of guidance who had this position and he is showing the central purpose of the previous of revelations were meant so we hold to the leader of guidance who is the spirit from God and holy spirit and word of light brought to life.
It's said in a way, that while Jesus' is leaving, it has to be that Elijah came back and the reason for it (who was also witnessed to be seen by many in beginning of Jesus' mission) and that implies that someone like them (Elijah) was there before Jesus who was John because there has to be a guide, and so when he talks about the comforter to come, it's obvious he is saying I go now but someone my position will come in the open again, prepare for it.
But the question arises what happens between then and now, and so he talks about the holy spirit being sent till then, another comforter who will not be sent by God but be there till the other comforter talked about is sent.
The one who God continues to channel his light and holy power through was Elijah and the one predicted to be sent is obviously Mohamad (s).
This is vividly clear for me. And may God bless all the Messengers and Prophets and chosen ladies and guides he has chosen from Adam till now.
What do you think it means that Jesus is the Messiah?
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
The verse in question is 61:6 (The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation):
Sahih International: And [mention] when Jesus, the son of Mary, said, "O children of Israel, indeed I am the messenger of Allah to you confirming what came before me of the Torah and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad." But when he came to them with clear evidences, they said, "This is obvious magic."
Pickthall: And when Jesus son of Mary said: O Children of Israel! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah unto you, confirming that which was (revealed) before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings of a messenger who cometh after me, whose name is the Praised One. Yet when he hath come unto them with clear proofs, they say: This is mere magic.
Yusuf Ali: And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!"
Shakir: And when Isa son of Marium said: O children of Israel! surely I am the messenger of Allah to you, verifying that which is before me of the Taurat and giving the good news of an Messenger who will come after me, his name being Ahmad, but when he came to them with clear arguments they said: This is clear magic.
Muhammad Sarwar: Jesus, son of Mary, said to the Israelites, "I am the Messenger of God sent to you. I confirm the Torah which is in existence and give you the glad news of the coming of a Messenger who will come after me named Ahmad." When this Messenger came to them with all the proofs (to support his truthfulness), they said, "He is simply a magician".
Mohsin Khan: And (remember) when 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), said: "O Children of Israel! I am the Messenger of Allah unto you confirming the Taurat [(Torah) which came] before me, and giving glad tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmed . But when he (Ahmed i.e. Muhammad SAW) came to them with clear proofs, they said: "This is plain magic."
Arberry: And when Jesus son of Mary said, 'Children of Israel, I am indeed the Messenger of God to you, confirming the Torah that is before me, and giving good tidings of a Messenger who shall come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad.' Then, when he brought them the clear signs, they said, 'This is a manifest sorcery.'
firedragon
Veteran Member
The citing of the word Torah in the Quran is referring to the Torah or the revelation that was revealed to the prophets. It does not say it is referring to a particular book or set of books in the Tanakh. In fact, the Quran clearly says that people wrote by their own hands and claimed it is from God.
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
Investigate Truth said, "2. If you are a Muslim, I expect you to know where in Quran says, Muhammad was prophesied in Torah. Just do some search on it and you will find it".
I gave the number of the verse he was talking about. I did not say it is "referring to a particular book or set of books in the Tanakh". Your entire response was a non sequitur.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Oh dont worry about it. Thats not relevant. There are many people who have read a few verses here and there from a website.
The citing of the word Torah in the Quran is referring to the Torah or the revelation that was revealed to the prophets. It does not say it is referring to a particular book or set of books in the Tanakh. In fact, the Quran clearly says that people wrote by their own hands and claimed it is from God.
I was not arguing with you. I was making a statement. Try and understand that statement. If you wish to clarify, please clarify.
The Quran is not referring to the Bible. If your evidence is "Because a Bahai said so", its your prerogative, but its not valid for others, only to you.
Everyone knows the verse my friend. There is no need to get angry about it.
Calm down.
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
The entire qur'an is about Mohamed establishing a new religion called Islam. Dozens of verses establish new rules specific to Islam which have become Sharia in many countries.
Verse 5:3 says so explicitly - "This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion".
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
I didn't say it was.
I never said that.
Everyone knows the verse my friend. There is no need to get angry about it.
I'm perfectly calm. I'm just pointing out, as you continued to demonstrate with this post, that you seem to respond in non sequiturs.
firedragon
Veteran Member
That does not say prior to this day Islam didnt exist.
You should read the Quran. Tell me. What does Milleth Ibrahim mean? Can you do a simple research of a few minutes and remark on that?
firedragon
Veteran Member
All your statements here were based on what a Bahai said. But never mind. It doesnt matter who said it. Even if its a Muslim who said it, still you must understand someones statement and address his point. Not appeal to another persons word.
Many people who have never read the Quran, making expositions on it without reading it based on cherry picked verses on a website, act like this.
Happens every day.
The citing of the word Torah in the Quran is referring to the Torah or the revelation that was revealed to the prophets. It does not say it is referring to a particular book or set of books in the Tanakh. In fact, the Quran clearly says that people wrote by their own hands and claimed it is from God.
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
Islam was a new religion in the sense that it was named for the first time, it introduced new rules, and it introduced Mohamed through whom all clarifications, proclamations, and commands were to be made. If it already existed, why did it take 6,236 verses to restate it?
I've been reading it for 20 years.
As you said to another poster, I've been waiting for someone to invite me to do research. Btw, I don't respond to rhetorical questions. If you have a point, please make it.