Religious Borrowing and then Theft

[dianaiad]

The whole concept of "Messianic Jews" is redundant. So to complete my point here, your reiteration that being a Jew is only true by matrilineal denominations, is feeding right back into hateful regime of "religious wars" where everyone is supposedly divided, and nobody is allowed to have access to God except those in some kind of monarchial "royal gene pool".

If that is what you are accusing me of..hate crimes and antisemitic attitudes, knock it off.
If you are accusing me of claiming that 'only Jews" or "only I' have access to God...knock that off, too. For crying out loud, the JEWS don't believe that!

As it happens, when a certain group of people can be identified through the diseases that they have that others don't...like, oh, Tay Sachs...and when certain tribes in Africa can be genetically identified with their Jewish ancestors, etc., then 'being Jewish" is MORE than "just a " sect of Judeo-Christian belief systems.

To fail to acknowledge this is to do a grave disservice to everybody involved. The Jewish people have gone through too much, survived too much, accomplished too much, and kept their identity and culture too long for someone like you to pretend that none of that MATTERS.

It matters.

It makes them special. Just like my own ancestry...Scots through to the folks who 'went a viking,' and the Celts 'special. Nothing to be arrogant over, but certainly nothing to dismiss and pretend 'is not.'

When a human being can find and identify with a specific group, a specific culture and, well, 'tribe,' it's a GOOD thing. My children have a problem with that, actually; There's good old red headed Scottish me...but their father was half native American, a quarter African American, and the rest Hispanic and Irish and who knows.

Who do they identify with, when they can check off all the boxes? Our extended family looks like a real box of mixed chocolates; every color, every flavor, and we're fine with that, We have all sorta picked our flavor and run with it, identifying with a specific group whose ideals and culture we like the best, and the one which (mostly) confuses everybody else.

Mind you, watching a black bagpipe player accompany a native american sword dancer while the blond kid with the full red beard does a Chocktaw war dance in full regalia can get weird, but WE know who we are.

Frankly, unisus, you have absolutely no right to accuse me, or anybody else, of being anti-semitic because we acknowledge the special importance the Jews have had over the millennia, in our culture. We owe them too much to dismiss them.

 

[shunyadragon]

The answer is that the OP is the point of the thread. That's how forum posts work. That you don't want to respond to it is the problem.

I have responded specifically to the topic where I disagree with you. My posts are relevant to the thread topic unless all you accept are thise posts that agree with you.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Random, speculative thoughts:

• There's a "then", a "now", and the transition from the former to the latter.
  • A pre-crucifixion "Then" , IMO, involved
    1. Jesus, and
       
    2. and his core group of selected disciples,
    3. possibly a very small group of Jesus' "devotees"/followers who actually took advantage of every opportunity to spend time with Jesus and/or his disciples,
    4. a much larger group of people who were NOT as transient as Jesus and who continued to maintain their individual, separate ties to their local communities while being/becoming "committed" to giving Jesus and/or his disciples an audience as often as practically possible; and
    5. an even larger, much more fluid group of "Jesus-is-in-town" folks.who also would have maintained their individual separate ties to their local communities, but not increasing
  • An immediate post-crucifixion "Then",
    • which would have had a huge effect on Group 5, diminishing it substantially, and
      
    • which would have had some effect on Group 4, diminishing it somewhat, and
      
    • which would have had some effect on Group 3, leaving it vulnerable, at least initially, to doubts, hopes, speculations, and reports of sightings of Jesus, and
    • which left the surviving disciples [Note: Judas Iscariot committed suicide prior to Jesus' resurrection], increasingly emboldened, especially after personal encounters with the resurrected Jesus.
  • So what?
    • The core beliefs of the surviving disciples, the small group of transient followers, and the dedicated non-transient followers, IMO, should have fizzled out after Jesus' crucifixion if the resurrection never happened.
      
    • The amalgamation of the pre-crucifixion Jewish culture and the post-christian core beliefs generated conflict, as evangelization increased. Cf.:
      • Paul consulting the early Christian elders in Jerusalem [Acts 15] and
      • Paul confronting Peter and the Judaizers [Galations 2].
  • "Now", almost 2,000 years after Jesus' crucifixion, entombment, and resurrection, innovation and "restoration" movements abound.
    • As I understand it, a Jew can be
      • a Jew and an atheist/agnostic (e.g. a Humanist Jew),
      • a theistic, non-Jew Jew [ ], or
      • a traditional/Judaic Jew; or
      • a Gentile convert to Judaism, or
        
      • an oddball.

They are interesting thoughts. There are explanations as to why Christianity didn't fizzle out after Christ's crucifixion that do not rely on a literal resurrection of Jesus. Two thousand years on and there are many divisions of Christianity. I don't want to derail the thread, but why are you so convinced the Jesus literally rose from the dead and ascended to heaven at Pentecost as recorded in Acts of the Apostles 1:9-11

 

[Terry Sampson]

There are explanations as to why Christianity didn't fizzle out after Christ's crucifixion that do not rely on a literal resurrection of Jesus.

I really don't remember wondering about why it didn't before now and so have never bothered to explore the matter. But now that you mention the existence of purported explanations, I'll look around and see what's out there.

why are you so convinced the Jesus literally rose from the dead

1. My personal bias shaped by the seven most important people in my life;
2. A personal experience; and
   
3. The testimony of every non-Christian's favorite "whipping boy": Paul of Tarsus.

You know how to contact me if that doesn't satisfy your curiosity.

 

[Deeje]

It's mostly Christians trying to be Jews, what's up with that?

Sorry I haven't read the whole thread but in what way do you think Christians are trying to be Jews?

Was Jesus trying to be Jewish or was he in fact Jewish? Did he not teach everything from Jewish scripture? Did he not expose the Jewish Leaders of his day for failing to teach God's word, but instead substituting a poor collection of man-made traditions instead? Weren't the Jews a nation of serial covenant breakers right up to the time of Messiah's appearance? How many times did God have to punish them and bring them back into line? His patience had its limits. Even John the Baptist didn't have a good thing to say about them. (Matthew 3:7-12)

If they had been a model of obedience and loyalty to God throughout their history, you might have an argument....but since they were anything but, I have to question your assessment of this issue....was any of it "borrowed" or 'stolen'? Or was Jesus merely trying to restore what had been corrupted by the Pharisees and salvation withheld from the "lost sheep" to whom Jesus was sent. It is important to note that Jesus was not sent to the incorrigible Jewish leaders, but to the ones they had treated with contempt as beneath them to even associate with. Jesus had no such reservations.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Sorry I haven't read the whole thread but in what way do you think Christians are trying to be Jews?

Was Jesus trying to be Jewish or was he in fact Jewish? Did he not teach everything from Jewish scripture? Did he not expose the Jewish Leaders of his day for failing to teach God's word, but instead substituting a poor collection of man-made traditions instead? Weren't the Jews a nation of serial covenant breakers right up to the time of Messiah's appearance? How many times did God have to punish them and bring them back into line? His patience had its limits. Even John the Baptist didn't have a good thing to say about them. (Matthew 3:7-12)

If they had been a model of obedience and loyalty to God throughout their history, you might have an argument....but since they were anything but, I have to question your assessment of this issue....was any of it "borrowed" or 'stolen'? Or was Jesus merely trying to restore what had been corrupted by the Pharisees and salvation withheld from the "lost sheep" to whom Jesus was sent. It is important to note that Jesus was not sent to the incorrigible Jewish leaders, but to the ones they had treated with contempt as beneath them to even associate with. Jesus had no such reservations.

What can be said Deeje.

Seems like history repeats.

Regards Tony

 

[Deeje]

What can be said Deeje.

Seems like history repeats.

Regards Tony

Indeed....Christendom is a mirror image of first century Judaism.....both were horribly corrupted by evil men masquerading as God's representatives. Jesus said we would recognize the true Christians from the fake ones "by their fruits". There is too much blood on too many hands....

 

[Jedster]

I....

It's mostly Christians trying to be Jews, what's up with that?

It seems to me that many Christian believers(& 'Abrahamics') want to believe that only their sect is the real 'chosen people'.
I say this from my own conversations with zealous Christians, from when I was frum.

Part of their proof was things like, "well, look how we have been persecuted", which many groups have.
The story of Moses receiving commandments says that this was to one particular people, and the various groups go to extreme lengths to prove it was them.


I really wish that whoever wrote the Christian Bible would have really written a 'New testament' and not included the said 'old' one. Jews & the rest of the world would have had a much more peaceful history.
If Jesus did exist, and said all what was reported, then he did no favour mentioning the past.
_____________________________________

Of course all this doesn't only apply to Christians, it applies to many groups claiming to believe in the 'Abrahamic' god.

________________________________________________
Yikes, I just noticed this in the debate section. I just wanted to give my inner-lapsed-Jew an expression.
I'll risk leaving it here.

Shana tova.

 

[Desert Snake]

It seems to me that many Christian believers(& 'Abrahamics') want to believe that only their sect is the real 'chosen people'.
I say this from my own conversations with zealous Christians, from when I was frum.

Part of their proof was things like, "well, look how we have been persecuted", which many groups have.
The story of Moses receiving commandments says that this was to one particular people, and the various groups go to extreme lengths to prove it was them.


I really wish that whoever wrote the Christian Bible would have really written a 'New testament' and not included the said 'old' one. Jews & the rest of the world would have had a much more peaceful history.
If Jesus did exist, and said all what was reported, then he did no favour mentioning the past.
_____________________________________

Of course all this doesn't only apply to Christians, it applies to many groups claiming to believe in the 'Abrahamic' god.

________________________________________________
Yikes, I just noticed this in the debate section. I just wanted to give my inner-lapsed-Jew an expression.
I'll risk leaving it here.

Shana tova.

That is generally abstract. 'Christianity' is from a Judaic Israelite belief system, so of course the religious basis is part of that, the theism, so forth.
Judaism is different from other biblical belief, & Christianity; it has a unique manner by which it delineates the 'old testament', therefore the ideas from other theism that don't do that, are different religions. They are separate, in that manner.

The real problem thusly would be religious generalization.

 

[unisus]

If that is what you are accusing me of..hate crimes and antisemitic attitudes, knock it off.
If you are accusing me of claiming that 'only Jews" or "only I' have access to God...knock that off, too. For crying out loud, the JEWS don't believe that!

As it happens, when a certain group of people can be identified through the diseases that they have that others don't...like, oh, Tay Sachs...and when certain tribes in Africa can be genetically identified with their Jewish ancestors, etc., then 'being Jewish" is MORE than "just a " sect of Judeo-Christian belief systems.

To fail to acknowledge this is to do a grave disservice to everybody involved. The Jewish people have gone through too much, survived too much, accomplished too much, and kept their identity and culture too long for someone like you to pretend that none of that MATTERS.

It matters.

It makes them special. Just like my own ancestry...Scots through to the folks who 'went a viking,' and the Celts 'special. Nothing to be arrogant over, but certainly nothing to dismiss and pretend 'is not.'

When a human being can find and identify with a specific group, a specific culture and, well, 'tribe,' it's a GOOD thing. My children have a problem with that, actually; There's good old red headed Scottish me...but their father was half native American, a quarter African American, and the rest Hispanic and Irish and who knows.

Who do they identify with, when they can check off all the boxes? Our extended family looks like a real box of mixed chocolates; every color, every flavor, and we're fine with that, We have all sorta picked our flavor and run with it, identifying with a specific group whose ideals and culture we like the best, and the one which (mostly) confuses everybody else.

Mind you, watching a black bagpipe player accompany a native american sword dancer while the blond kid with the full red beard does a Chocktaw war dance in full regalia can get weird, but WE know who we are.

Frankly, unisus, you have absolutely no right to accuse me, or anybody else, of being anti-semitic because we acknowledge the special importance the Jews have had over the millennia, in our culture. We owe them too much to dismiss them.

I didn't accuse you of being anti-semitic in even the slightest. I literally stated that your assertion that being a Jew comes by one's mother's genes, is purely propaganda from the matrilineal denominations who want to deny Christ as the messiah & redefine ideologies by genetics which makes zero sense. I then went on to state that Christianity itself is a denomination of Judaism; meaning, if you are a Christian you are literally a Jew.

You'd have to be a complete hypocrite to call yourself Jesus' child then claim you are not a Jew.

Also, it's amazing how the word Judaic has somehow lost its place in the English language so that the word "Jew" now is supposedly the monopolized proprietary property of a race when in fact Jew has always referred to an ideology. The word Jew itself means "god", descending from the root word Deo, Dios, Theos, & Zeus.

No. You are not a "Jew" simply because you belong to a lineage; although from my research I can see that the Webster's Dictionary has been updated recently to redefine "Jew" as being genetically Judaic, which is utterly despicable.

As I stated, you asserted that being a "Jew" was defined by race when in fact it has literally ALWAYS been defined by belief in Zeus. And if you read Jesus' words in Greek you will find that the word for God is Dios which is often spelled Jus, Jew, Dyew, Zeus, & Theos. Jus-Pater means Heavenly Father. This is also where the word deism & theism come from: The root word Zeus / Jew.

If anything I stated the opposite of what you believe I said. I said that there appears to be a racist cult trying to hijack the word Jew, and using their synagogues to preach that Christians are magically not Jews now but rather something different. And this itself is born from their disbelief in Jesus.

If the Judeo-Christians knew what was best for them, they'd stop referring to themselves as Christians and start referring to themselves as Jews again. Jesus' message was always that His believers are His children, children of one & only Jewish messiah who is Christ, children of the most High Zeus/Dios/Jus-Pater/Jew, which makes them Jews.

 

[Rival]

I didn't accuse you of being anti-semitic in even the slightest. I literally stated that your assertion that being a Jew comes by one's mother's genes, is purely propaganda from the matrilineal denominations & absolutely uncited, unverified, and debatable by everyone else in humanity. I then went on to state that Christianity itself is a denomination of Judaism; meaning, if you are a Christian you are literally a Jew.

You'd have to be a complete hypocrite to call yourself Jesus' child then claim you are not a Jew.

Also, it's amazing how the word Judaic has somehow lost its place in the English language so that the word "Jew" now is supposedly the monopolized proprietary property of a race when in fact Jew has always referred to an ideology. The word Jew itself means "god", descending from the root word Deo, Dios, Theos, & Zeus.

No. You are not a "Jew" simply because you belong to a lineage; although from my research I can see that the Webster's Dictionary has been updated recently to redefine "Jew" as being genetically Judaic, which is utterly despicable.

As I stated, you asserted that being a "Jew" was defined by race when in fact it has literally ALWAYS been defined by belief in Zeus. And if you read Jesus' words in Greek you will find that the word for God is Dios which is often spelled Jus, Jew, Dyew, Zeus, & Theos.

If anything I stated the opposite of what you believe I said. I said that there appears to be a racist cult trying to hijack the word Jew, and using their synagogues to preach that Christians are magically not Jews now but rather something different. And this itself is born from their disbelief in Jesus.

If the Judea-Christians knew what was best for them, they'd stop referring to themselves as Christians and start referring to themselves as Jews again. Jesus' message was that His believers are His children, children of one & only Jewish messiah who is Christ & Dios (Jus-Pater/Jew), which makes them Judeo aka Jews.

I guess you believe Islam is a denomination of Christianity, since that's what you're selling.

 

[firedragon]

The word Jew itself means "god", descending from the root word Deo, Dios, Theos, & Zeus.

Can you explain that? In Hebrew the word Yehudhi means God?

 

[Rival]

Can you explain that? In Hebrew the word Yehudhi means God?

It doesn't. This is nonsense.

 

[firedragon]

It doesn't. This is nonsense.

Its the first time I hear this. I just wish to know what the background of this idea is, even if its baseless.

 

[Terry Sampson]

It doesn't. This is nonsense.

Absolutely, unequivocally, and unambiguously.

 

[Jedster]

Can you explain that? In Hebrew the word Yehudhi means God?

Never heard that.
Yehudi (יהודי), which is generally used for the word 'Jew', comes from the word Judah(יהודה) as in member of he tribe of Judah.

 

[Terry Sampson]

Congratulations, @unisus
You've been in RF for only two days and you've already gotten on my "Ignore" list. I've never seen anyone get there so fast.

 

[firedragon]

Never heard that.
Yehudi (יהודי), which is generally used for the word 'Jew', comes from the word Judah(יהודה) as in member of he tribe of Judah.

Yep. That was not the question.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I guess you believe Islam is a denomination of Christianity, since that's what you're selling.

No matter what people think he is selling, it may have merit.

Regards Tony.

 

[Rival]

No matter what people think he is selling, it may have merit.

Regards Tony.

Calling Christianity Judaism is, in any sense, wrong; just as it is wrong to call Islam a denomination of Christianity, or Baha'iism a denomination of Islam. It's a nonsense.