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Featured Quran Yes. Hadith No.

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by EyE_OpEnEr_22, Aug 30, 2019.

  1. Wasp

    Wasp Active Member

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    It doesn't slur, why do you?

    You just don't like it because you're the type of person it speaks of. How come you get to speak that way about others if the book doesn't get to say it about you?
     
  2. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Hmm. Since you keep repeating this,

    what is the Quranic reference to "non-muslim" that you keep referring to?
     
  3. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    You keep talking about Cognitive Science. So what's the research method you take to the book called the Quran you seem to love to hate by default? Whats the research method in your cognitive science?
     
  4. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
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    You could start with "Implicit Learning and Tacit Knowledge" by Arthur Reber, and go from there. Once you've read that one, I can give you follow up reading.
     
  5. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
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    It strikes me that you would prefer that the conversation stay in the realm of the mind and scholarly analysis. My argument is based on what the brain does - outside of conscious control - as a pattern matching machine. For the purposes of this thread, I'm happy to grant you that all 500+ times the Quran slurs non-Muslims there is a scholarly context that makes it okay.

    But the point is that the BRAIN - not the conscious mind - the BRAIN doesn't care about the scholarly explanations. The BRAIN learns primarily by repetition and spotting patterns. You know this is true. It's how humans learn to walk and talk and do most of what we do. Your MIND does not read a manual on how to walk. Your MIND cannot explain how you walk. If you think you CAN explain how to walk, book a ticket to Google HQ, they will pay you millions and millions of dollars for such a recipe.

    So a book like the Quran creates a conflict between a peaceful person's mind, and their brain.

    This is objective science I'm discussing here. But it's not what you seem to want to acknowledge. To be fair, even in non-controversial topics, this brain vs. mind perspective is uncomfortable to contemplate. But cognitive science is showing us - more and more every day - that outrconscious minds are actually in control of very little, and our brains are running the show more than we'd like to acknowledge.
     
  6. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
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    Counting how much repetition is in the book. The link I provided earlier lists over 500 instances of repetition on the single theme of bashing non-Muslims. If you study "perceptual learning" you'll discover that about 200 instances on a theme is sufficient for the brain to establish a pattern. 500 is WAY MORE than enough to do the job.
     
  7. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
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    I'm not slurring anyone. I'm analyzing a book.
     
  8. Wasp

    Wasp Active Member

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    This is a good time for evidence since it's supposedly objective evidence.
     
  9. Wasp

    Wasp Active Member

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    A bad analysis turns easily into a slur.
     
  10. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Rhetoric.
     
  11. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    How do you gather its bashing "non-muslims"? Whats the phrase used there for non-muslims?

    If you dont know, you could be all wrong. So again, whats the phrase used there for non-muslims?
     
  12. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
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    There are many, but you're slipping back into a scholarly perspective. Of all the following, the BRAIN is most likely to lump them into a single category, that I'm calling "non-Muslim":

    - those who have gone astray
    - those who disbelieve
    - hypocrites
    - disbelievers
    - those who Allah misleads

    And on and on and on. Now, the scholar in you is likely to say "but those are different groups". And that's where you have to understand that the brain works differently than the scholarly mind. To the brain, all of those people being slurred will be lumped into a single category. I'm using the phrase "non-Muslims". There is nothing critical about using that phrase. You could substitute "non-believers" and get to the same result - from the brain's perspective.
     
  13. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Well. Your association of those phrases to your own rendition of non muslim is wrong. So your data is absolutely wrong. Your research methodology is wrong. So your conclusions are most stupendous wrong.

    So no human brain will make associations you have dreamt up and you have made absolutely upside down assumptions based on your nonsensical research. It's hilarious actually.
     
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  14. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    Thank you for your friendly reply.

    The main lesson I see here is: There might be people who do not like the precise verses, and they like to debate, using the unspecific verses, to argue why they need not implement/practice the precise verses. I think that is the major lesson and warning of verse 3:07

     
  15. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Can you tell me what research you have done to find that "muslims will lump all of those phrases into one group called non muslims"?
     
  16. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
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    Read up on:

    implicit knowledge and/or tacit knowledge

    and

    perceptual learning

    And again... our MINDS are capable of making finer distinctions. So as long as you're locked into what you know consciously, you're on the wrong track. Perceptual learning and possessing tacit knowledge are - by definition - not describable by your brain.

    Here are a few examples of tacit knowledge:

    - a chess master is truly a master, but she cannot truly explain how she made that last move
    - most of us are "masters" at walking, but none of us can truly explain how we walk
    - a professional diagnostician makes consistently good diagnosis, but cannot explain his process

    If we're going to be honest, we MUST acknowledge that much of what we can do as humans, we cannot accurately describe. That's tacit (unspeakable) knowledge.

    Perceptual learning is how we really do much of what we learn. We are exposed to hundreds and thousands of examples of "a thing", and our brain spots the patterns. So in the Quran, "people who do not believe in Allah" are slurred, over and over again. Our brains will absolutely pick up the pattern and draw a conclusion. You and I are communicating via words. I've used the phrase "non-Muslim". I just used the phrase "people who do not believe in Allah". We don't really know what phrase - if any - the brain uses. Because, it's tacit. But the brain makes associations and generalizations all the time. It's what brains do. It's how we function.
     
  17. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    You didnt answer the question.

    Can you tell me what research you have done to find that "muslims will lump all of those phrases into one group called non muslims"?
     
  18. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Based on what research do you come to conclusion that muslim brains that read the Quran associate all those phrases as "ones who do not believe in allah"?
     
  19. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
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    and

    fd: You didnt answer the question.

    Can you tell me what research you have done to find that "muslims will lump all of those phrases into one group called non muslims"?

    ==

    I've given you a link to a book on the subject, and I've given you three phrases you can find with a search engine. I've also made several extensive posts - in good faith - to try to give a sense of the basics of these topics in cognitive science.

    I'm not willing to talk only about those branches of science with which you happen to already be familiar. I'm also not willing to drag you up to speed on branches of science for which you are not familiar.

    Go study tacit knowledge, implicit learning, and perceptual learning.

    The world doesn't revolve around only those ideas you happen to know.
     
  20. Wasp

    Wasp Active Member

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    You expect him to quote three different translation on 500 different parts.
    And there there are those who argue everyone should obey the verses which they claim are precise and literal.
     
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