1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Quran mentions "Taurat, Zabur, Injil, furqan, Qur'an". What are they?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by firedragon, Jan 2, 2020.

  1. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    7,675
    Ratings:
    +4,921
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Do u you have a theory on this that you are trying to validate or conversely rule out?

    The answer to this question would be very helpful for me if you would like my help answering the question.

    Regardless, I'm happy to simply read the responses and learn from the other contributors to this thread.

    Thank you,
     
  2. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    7,613
    Ratings:
    +2,028
    I figured out later bro all good. Which goes to show how much we associate Quran/Taurat with Moses though the Quran does not say the Taurat was indeed given to moses.

    Yes. Jesus was taught the Torah. Torah means law.

    What the Jews and Christians had at the time of Muhammed in the 7th century is probably the same as we have now or at least similar. There could be small differences in the NT with the lack of Hermas, Barnabas, Clement etc which i do believe is the right thing to do anyway.

    I did not speak of modern scholarship of the Bible. But if that is a criteria, modern scholarship has questioned authorship of many books.

    Thanks.
     
  3. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    7,613
    Ratings:
    +2,028
    My theory? Hmm. Bro, i have not been asked this question. Okay my theory is that Muslims were immensely influenced by the Christians in their understanding of things. Thats why they immediately associate all these so called "scripture" mentioned in the Quran to exactly what Christians believe. But this adherence emerged 100s of years after Muhammed and a lot of it through the division of the Shii/Sunni divide. This increased in intensity in the 19th and 20th century.

    Im kidding. This is reality not theory and has been cited by many Islamic scholars of antiquity including the oldest recorded and respected Islamic Fikh scholar called Imam Malik.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    7,675
    Ratings:
    +4,921
    Religion:
    Judaism
    LOL! You totally gawt me... :tearsofjoy: That was awesome.

    Note: You hopefully know that I am not Christian. It's an ongoing problem for me both in real life and here on RF. I am actually very sensitive about being mislabeled, misjudged and such. It is true that I gravitate towards apologetics, but I'm not sure why that in of itself would invalidate an explanation/answer to your question.

    But i digress...

    Moving back to the topic: Am I misunderstanding your question? It sounded to me, from the wording in the OP, that you're asking about the intention of the meaning of the word Taurat in the Qur'an? And that's why I was asking about Qur'an 6:5. I feel like it may be a clue to help you with this mysterious word. Are you sure that Qur'an 6:5 is irrelevant in this?
     
  5. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    10,019
    Ratings:
    +5,490
    Religion:
    Sanathana Dharma [The Eternal Religion]
    Koran is the word of God
    The Koran does mention Jews and Christians.
    So God did give Jews and Christians a place in His new Holy Book.

    Personally if God grants mankind a New Holy Book, I feel it's important to me also.
    To me it does not matter if God gave it to another person, country or culture.
    If it's God's words, that's all that matters to me
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  6. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    7,613
    Ratings:
    +2,028
    No brother. You know sometimes i write so fast it may not speak exactly what i have in mind. It happens to many people. So i think i have not been clear.

    I have stated exactly what the word Taurat means. It means law. But it is referring to scripture. And one should know that there is absolutely no indication the Quran is referring to a particular book. None at all.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  7. Harel13

    Harel13 Nin-Jew Master
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2019
    Messages:
    4,700
    Ratings:
    +4,130
    Religion:
    Orthodox Judaism
    A place, as Jews and Christians or a place as converts to Islam?
    That's commendable, but usually arguments stem from: is this new book actually from God or not?
     
  8. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    7,613
    Ratings:
    +2,028
    Both.
     
  9. Harel13

    Harel13 Nin-Jew Master
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2019
    Messages:
    4,700
    Ratings:
    +4,130
    Religion:
    Orthodox Judaism
    Hmmm... Interesting. Why both? I would expect that since Jews and Christians adhere to beliefs that Muslims say are wrong, at the very least Muslims would say: Okay, you don't want to convert? Fine. But you can't keep calling yourselves Jews/Christians because those names reflect certain falsehoods. At best, you can be Allah-worshipping gentiles (as opposed to Allah-worshipping Muslims).
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    10,019
    Ratings:
    +5,490
    Religion:
    Sanathana Dharma [The Eternal Religion]
    If do not believe that God would ever say/mean "Jews and Christians ... a place as converts to Islam"
    If Muslims interpret Koran this way, or if they translate it this way, I will discard these words as not being from God

    God gave us discrimination and conscience. As long as they are not purified, then it's true that it's not easy to accept something as being from God.
     
  11. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    7,613
    Ratings:
    +2,028
    I dont know how relevant this is. what Muslims say, what you say, what is said in the news, etc etc is not scripture.

    Quran says "Innalladheena aamanu waalladheena hadhoo, wal nasaaraa, or those who believe, Jews, and Christians" will see salvation or/and will not have to worry if they believe in God, do amila Saalihan or "do things that are good and make a difference".
     
  12. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2010
    Messages:
    6,649
    Ratings:
    +1,935
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    If you ask these questions as a believer person, who believes in divinity of Quran, let me first ask you this question:
    If the revelations before Quran, such as Injil, Torah, etc, were not properly existed among people, before Quran, how did God guide them and how were those people were supposed to know the true Laws of God to follow. My question is about before revelation of the Quran, therefore do not say, Quran told them the Laws of God, as the Quran had not yet been revealed to humanity.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  13. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    7,613
    Ratings:
    +2,028
    This question is about what the book says brother. Even if its divine, not divine, or the work of many.
     
  14. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2011
    Messages:
    3,816
    Ratings:
    +3,153
    Religion:
    Baha'i inspired liberal
    I think that whether one assumes it is divine or not is central to the discussion because if it is divine one has to explain the obvious contradictions in it whereas if it is not divine this constraint is removed and we can read the text for what it actually says without attempting to rationalise it.
     
  15. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    7,613
    Ratings:
    +2,028
    So please read it in relevance to the topic just as a book and give your thoughts.

    Cheers.
     
  16. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2011
    Messages:
    3,816
    Ratings:
    +3,153
    Religion:
    Baha'i inspired liberal
    The Quran claims to verify, “that which they [ie people’s of the book]* have”
    See for example Quran 2:89 and 2:191
    *(please note comment in parentheses is added by me)

    This means that at the time of Muhammad the peoples of the book (Jews and Christians) had what was essentially the message of the Taurat, Zabur, and Injil

    We know historically that there is little change between what they had then and the Taurat, Zabur and Injil that Christians and Jews have today.

    For a fuller exposition of this see:
    Corruption of Previous Scriptures (Qur'an 2:79) - WikiIslam


    And also;
    Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Corruption of Previous Scriptures - WikiIslam
     
  17. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    7,613
    Ratings:
    +2,028
    The point is that the Quran does not state anywhere explicitly if they were written down. Thahthuhu. Write down.
     
  18. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2011
    Messages:
    3,816
    Ratings:
    +3,153
    Religion:
    Baha'i inspired liberal
    What the peoples of the book had was written down, that’s how we know the book that Arab Christians/Jews had then is the same as what they have today.
     
  19. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    7,613
    Ratings:
    +2,028
    What is said in the Quran? Thats the question.
     
  20. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2011
    Messages:
    3,816
    Ratings:
    +3,153
    Religion:
    Baha'i inspired liberal
    Why call them “peoples of the book” if what they had wasn’t written down?

    ETA “Ahl al-Kitab” ie peoples of the book is a Quranic term
     
    #40 danieldemol, Jan 4, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2020
Loading...