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Quran mentions "Taurat, Zabur, Injil, furqan, Qur'an". What are they?

firedragon

Veteran Member
There are many places in the Quran where Taurat, Zabur, Injil, Quran are mentioned.

1. Muslims, Jews and Christians predominantly believe that these are all books that were written down in the past at some point. Each faith of course would vary in their interpretation of this idea but were they actually written down in book form, scrolls or what ever written down forms? Based on Quran, how do we know this?

2. Why is the mention of a Quran, which is the only reference to a scripture that means a recitation or a reading? Everything else will have meanings like law, story or source/origin/appearance etc while Quran means a recital/reading. Does that have any significance?

3. We attribute the Taurat to Musa or moses. But does the Quran say that it was the book given to Moses? Nowhere. So based on this attribution that was inherited from older traditions maybe people associated that with the pentateuch. Did they?

4. The Quran associates the Zabur with David. But does that mean its the Psalms found in the Tanah?

5. Injil is associated with Jesus the son of Maryam. Does that mean its the Gospels that is in the title of four books recognised as the canonical gospels? Or is it what Jesus preached?

Are we making a lot of assumptions based on famous news around the world? Opinions! What do you have to say?
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
From my perspective the Quran (and all other scripture), is a man-made invention. As such, the Quran is riddled with errors and inconsistencies (as is all scripture).
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
From my perspective the Quran (and all other scripture), is a man-made invention. As such, the Quran is riddled with errors and inconsistencies (as is all scripture).

True. Thats your perspective of course. You should actually open a new topic on that subject.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
True. Thats your perspective of course. You should actually open a new topic on that subject.

Since you put this is in a general "religious debates" forum, and you asked an open-ended question you should expect that responders won't stay in the lanes you wanted them to. For example, a Christian responder might say the same things about the Quran that I did.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Since you put this is in a general "religious debates" forum, and you asked an open-ended question you should expect that responders won't stay in the lanes you wanted them to. For example, a Christian responder might say the same things about the Quran that I did.

Of course. Thanks.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
Since you put this is in a general "religious debates" forum, and you asked an open-ended question you should expect that responders won't stay in the lanes you wanted them to. For example, a Christian responder might say the same things about the Quran that I did.
I see your point, Icehorse, but I think the question stands regardless how one thinks the Qur'an came into being. Even if one believes the Qur'an to be manmade, the question "What did the author mean by 'Tawrat, Zabur, Injeel and Furqan', is it what we have traditionally believed he referred to?" makes sense.

It's an interesting question.
 
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icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I see your point, Icehorse, but I think the question stands regardless how one thinks the Qur'an came into being. Even if one believes the Qur'an to be manmade, the question "What did the author mean by 'Tawrat, Zabur, Injeel and Furqan', is it what we have traditionally believed he referred to?" makes sense.

It's an interesting question.

And I agree that it's an interesting question :)
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Jews (...) predominantly believe that these are all books that were written down in the past at some point.
Do we? I've never heard of these...
Why bring in Jews and Christians, though? The Quran is a Muslim text. Is it really important what people of other faiths opinionated about the identity of these books?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Do we? I've never heard of these...
Why bring in Jews and Christians, though? The Quran is a Muslim text. Is it really important what people of other faiths opinionated about the identity of these books?

Thanks for the advice.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
We attribute the Taurat to Musa or moses. But does the Quran say that it was the book given to Moses? Nowhere. So based on this attribution that was inherited from older traditions maybe people associated that with the pentateuch. Did they?

I'm not sure if this is helpful or relevant, but, when my Jewish friends and I speak about "Torah" it is a general over-arching term including the entire Tanach, Talmud, and Oral Tradition. My understanding is that this is consistent with the customs of Jewish people going all the way back to Mt.Sinai. If this is true, then it would certainly also be true in 600CE when the Qur'an was compiled by Muhammad. And perhaps this is the definition of Taurat in the Qur'an? It is the entire canon of Jewish thought including but not limited to the first 5 books scribed by Moses?

But honestly, I'm just speculating.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
You know my views.

There are many places in the Quran where Taurat, Zabur, Injil, Quran are mentioned.

1. Muslims, Jews and Christians predominantly believe that these are all books that were written down in the past at some point. Each faith of course would vary in their interpretation of this idea but were they actually written down in book form, scrolls or what ever written down forms? Based on Quran, how do we know this?

That is pretty much what the Quran says with the mention of Tawrat over 100 times and Injil 12 times. Either of us could come up with the relevant verses and construct a plausible narrative. I don’t think Baha’is and Muslims would disagree. Obviously Jews reject the Christian books as both Christians and Jews reject the authenticity of the Quran in regards being a book from God.

2. Why is the mention of a Quran, which is the only reference to a scripture that means a recitation or a reading? Everything else will have meanings like law, story or source/origin/appearance etc while Quran means a recital/reading. Does that have any significance?

I see where you are going with this. Its an interesting question.

3. We attribute the Taurat to Musa or moses. But does the Quran say that it was the book given to Moses? Nowhere. So based on this attribution that was inherited from older traditions maybe people associated that with the pentateuch. Did they?

For many Baha’is it is reasonable to assume the Tawrat and Injil mentioned in the Quran is analogous to the Torah and Gospel the Jews and Christians have in their possession. Did Muhammad say in the Quran they were corrupted? I don’t believe He did.

4. The Quran associates the Zabur with David. But does that mean its the Psalms found in the Tanah?

Probably. Is there a good reason to believe it isn’t?

5. Injil is associated with Jesus the son of Maryam. Does that mean its the Gospels that is in the title of four books recognised as the canonical gospels? Or is it what Jesus preached?

Baha’is believe the Gospels are a fair reflection of what Jesus preached.

Are we making a lot of assumptions based on famous news around the world? Opinions! What do you have to say?

There are a lot of assumptions all round, of course.

Its a great topic for discussion and debate. I have a long road trip today so won’t have too much time to participate. However I’ll be interested in how your thread unfolds. All the best.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
You know my views.





That is pretty much what the Quran says with the mention of Tawrat over 100 times and Injil 12 times. Either of us could come up with the relevant verses and construct a plausible narrative. I don’t think Baha’is and Muslims would disagree. Obviously Jews reject the Christian books as both Christians and Jews reject the authenticity of the Quran in regards being a book from God.



I see where you are going with this. Its an interesting question.



For many Baha’is it is reasonable to assume the Tawrat and Injil mentioned in the Quran is analogous to the Torah and Gospel the Jews and Christians have in their possession. Did Muhammad say in the Quran they were corrupted? I don’t believe He did.



Probably. Is there a good reason to believe it isn’t?



Baha’is believe the Gospels are a fair reflection of what Jesus preached.



There are a lot of assumptions all round, of course.

Its a great topic for discussion and debate. I have a long road trip today so won’t have too much time to participate. However I’ll be interested in how your thread unfolds. All the best.

1. I think the Quran mentions Taurat around 18 times. Not 100. Anyway the Quran does not say any of these scriptures were written down. Its not explicitly stated. A lot of people think "this is what the Quran says" but thats why i stated have we followed famous news, the Quran doesnt say it.

2. I did not speak of any of these books being corrupted, the Quran doesnt say anywhere they were corrupted.

3. Quran says Zabur was given to David. That doesnt mean any book attributed to David is Zabur. We just dont know. We have made an assumption. The only good reason you can provide is "people think psalms is written by david so Zabur" has to be the book of psalms. Thats not good enough.

Hope you understand.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I'm not sure if this is helpful or relevant, but, when my Jewish friends and I speak about "Torah" it is a general over-arching term including the entire Tanach, Talmud, and Oral Tradition. My understanding is that this is consistent with the customs of Jewish people going all the way back to Mt.Sinai. If this is true, then it would certainly also be true in 600CE when the Qur'an was compiled by Muhammad. And perhaps this is the definition of Taurat in the Qur'an? It is the entire canon of Jewish thought including but not limited to the first 5 books scribed by Moses?

But honestly, I'm just speculating.

Well. Muslims and Christians dont really understand Judaism. Thats a fact. Some do, most dont. Also, the most known point of view of the Chfistian apologists is the same as what you said about the Quran and the Torah. Thats the Christian apologetic point of view. Maybe its right, but the point of view i am looking for is the Quranic point of view. Hope you understand.

But no brother. The Muslim view is not that the entire tanah is the Taurat in the Quran. Some believe that its the pentateuch. And some believe it was never written down while some others believe that the Bible has the Taurat but a corrupted remnant of it.

Even in early scholarship the concepts varied.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Well. Muslims and Christians dont really understand Judaism. Thats a fact. Some do, most dont. Also, the most known point of view of the Chfistian apologists is the same as what you said about the Quran and the Torah. Thats the Christian apologetic point of view. Maybe its right, but the point of view i am looking for is the Quranic point of view. Hope you understand.

But no brother. The Muslim view is not that the entire tanah is the Taurat in the Quran. Some believe that its the pentateuch. And some believe it was never written down while some others believe that the Bible has the Taurat but a corrupted remnant of it.

Even in early scholarship the concepts varied.
What is your understanding of Qur'an 6:5? When I read this ( starting at 6:1 ) I feel like the Qur'an is speaking about some ( not all ) Jewish people? Perhaps 6:5 is alluding to the Torah without mentioning it explicitly?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
What is your understanding of Qur'an 6:5? When I read this ( starting at 6:1 ) I feel like the Qur'an is speaking about some ( not all ) Jewish people? Perhaps 6:5 is alluding to the Torah without mentioning it explicitly?

Okay. Let's say you are right. What's your ultimate point brother? I mean with relevance to the opening post...
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I hope what I wrote didn't sound offensive. Of it did, I'm very sorry. If you think other religions' opinions of something in the Quran is relevant, please enlighten me.

Oh no brother. There is nothing offensive about what you said. You were right in many aspects.

I mentioned what Jews and Christians along with some muslims think as a matter of fact. What that's relevant to the topic is, through the lense of the Quran, that belief may not be so precise.

So the point is people believe some things based on what they heard on top of the book, not predominantly from within the book. But intake your advice. Because I have not been very clear on that point though I have said at the end of that point as an ending.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Okay. Let's say you are right. What's your ultimate point brother? I mean with relevance to the opening post...
I am trying to help you answer this question. I don't have the answer directly, but I'm trying to help. AMybe these little details will help you answer the question below...

But does the Quran say that it was the book given to Moses? Nowhere. So based on this attribution that was inherited from older traditions maybe people associated that with the pentateuch. Did they?

Also, I'm trying to support my other reply.

Maybe I should bow out?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I am trying to help you answer this question. I don't have the answer directly, but I'm trying to help. AMybe these little details will help you answer the question below...



Also, I'm trying to support my other reply.

Maybe I should bow out?

The Quran speak of Jews many times. It speaks of the Torah directly many times. Other times when the Quran says Ahlul Kithab, or Wahi or What was sent down or Anzala, it is generic reference to scripture/revelation, not necessarily specific to the Torah. Even if it is specific to the Torah, the whole question in the OP is "Is that Torah what we now see as being called Torah in the Old Testament, through the lens of the Quran". Hope you understand.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
1. I think the Quran mentions Taurat around 18 times. Not 100. Anyway the Quran does not say any of these scriptures were written down. Its not explicitly stated. A lot of people think "this is what the Quran says" but thats why i stated have we followed famous news, the Quran doesnt say it.

You are right about the number 18. I had the number of times Moses was mentioned (136) with the Torah.

Here’s an interesting verse where Allah refers to having taught Jesus the Torah and the Gospel.


[The Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, remember My favor upon you and upon your mother when I supported you with the Pure Spirit and you spoke to the people in the cradle and in maturity; and [remember] when I taught you writing and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and when you designed from clay [what was] like the form of a bird with My permission, then you breathed into it, and it became a bird with My permission; and you healed the blind and the leper with My permission; and when you brought forth the dead with My permission; and when I restrained the Children of Israel from [killing] you when you came to them with clear proofs and those who disbelieved among them said, "This is not but obvious magic."

— Quran, sura 5 (Al-Ma'ida), ayah 110[7]

We know Jesus was a Jew whose religion is founded on the Torah the Jews had in their possession. In the Gospels He is recorded on numerous occasions making clear references to this book. For example when He expounds on the greatest law to love God He is essentially quoting from Deuteronomy 6:4-5. He made no mention of any problem with the Torah the Israelites had in their possession.

2. I did not speak of any of these books being corrupted, the Quran doesnt say anywhere they were corrupted.

I agree the Quran say no such thing. Do you think it would be reasonable to assume the Gospel and the Torah the Christians and Jews had in their possession during Muhammad’s lifetime was much the same as we have now?

3. Quran says Zabur was given to David. That doesnt mean any book attributed to David is Zabur. We just dont know. We have made an assumption. The only good reason you can provide is "people think psalms is written by david so Zabur" has to be the book of psalms. Thats not good enough.

Hope you understand.

I agree with the uncertainty around the authorship of Psalms from a modern biblical scholarship perspective. The same problem exists to varying degrees for all four Gospels and the Torah itself.
 
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