Quran mentions "Taurat, Zabur, Injil, furqan, Qur'an". What are they?

[firedragon]

Why call them “peoples of the book” if what they had wasn’t written down?

ETA “Ahl al-Kitab” ie peoples of the book is a Quranic term

Are you saying that because they are called Ahlul kithab in the Quran the Taurat, Injil, Furqan, Zabur were all written down and were in written format? You believe thats what the Quran is saying?

 

[danieldemol]

Are you saying that because they are called Ahlul kithab in the Quran the Taurat, Injil, Furqan, Zabur were all written down and were in written format? You believe thats what the Quran is saying?

I don’t know what the “furqan” refers to but I do know that it is funny to call a people "people of the book" if they have no book.

 

[firedragon]

I don’t know what the “furqan” refers to but I do know that it is funny to call a people "people of the book" if they have no book.

True. Its really funny. Because if its addressing people with a specific book, saying people of "the book" sounds really funny doesnt it? I mean they definitely refer to several books either it should be people of many books or people of "a" book. The book is like addressing a single book. Isnt it?

So you think it should have been Ahl Kithab, not Ahl al kithab?

 

[danieldemol]

True. Its really funny. Because if its addressing people with a specific book, saying people of "the book" sounds really funny doesnt it? I mean they definitely refer to several books either it should be people of many books or people of "a" book. The book is like addressing a single book. Isnt it?

So you think it should have been Ahl Kithab, not Ahl al kithab?

By the time of Muhammad according to my understanding the Christians would have referred to their collection of books as "the Gospel" and the same for Jews with the Torah, so its not that surprising.

 

[firedragon]

By the time of Muhammad according to my understanding the Christians would have referred to their collection of books as "the Gospel" and the same for Jews with the Torah, so its not that surprising.

Again. This is about what the Quran is saying.

1. Nevertheless, you think the Christians referred to their scripture as "The Gospel"? Not "the Bible"?
2. Dont you think that "People of the book" sounds like its one book? Al Kithab. The Book.
3. So should not it be "People of books"? or something? So should it be Kuthub instead of Kithab?
4. The Quran refers itsself as "The book" or "Al Kithab" right at the beginning. Zalikal Kithaba la raiba feehi. So does that mean "People of the book" must be referring to the Quran itself? Afterall, its the same word. Al Kithab. The Book.
5. Thus, thinking of all of this, people of the book who are Jews and Christians with their own written down books in book form, when the Quran says "we have sent down to you the book as a clarification" in lets say a verse like 16:89 which book is it referring to? People of the book must be with "the book" so which book is the Quran referring to in the verse 16:89 which is supposed to be a clarification for all things etc etc?

I am only following your line of reasoning. The book means a book that was written down. That was your reasoning. So what do you think of these points?

 

[chris baron]

There are many places in the Quran where Taurat, Zabur, Injil, Quran are mentioned.



Are we making a lot of assumptions based on famous news around the world? Opinions! What do you have to say?

A Book which We have revealed unto thee in order that thou mightest lead mankind out of the depths of darkness into light― by the leave of their Lord― to the Way of (Him) Exalted in Power, Worthy of all Praise! (1) Of Allah, to Whom do belong all things in the heavens and on earth! But alas for the Unbelievers for a terrible Penalty (their Unfaith will bring them)!― (2) Those who love the life of this world more than the Hereafter, who hinder (men) from the Path of Allah and seek to make it crooked: they are astray by a long distance.

 

[firedragon]

A Book which We have revealed unto thee in order that thou mightest lead mankind out of the depths of darkness into light― by the leave of their Lord― to the Way of (Him) Exalted in Power, Worthy of all Praise! (1) Of Allah, to Whom do belong all things in the heavens and on earth! But alas for the Unbelievers for a terrible Penalty (their Unfaith will bring them)!― (2) Those who love the life of this world more than the Hereafter, who hinder (men) from the Path of Allah and seek to make it crooked: they are astray by a long distance.

~Great. Thanks.

 

[Harel13]

If Muslims interpret Koran this way, or if they translate it this way, I will discard these words as not being from God

Why?

God gave us discrimination and conscience. As long as they are not purified, then it's true that it's not easy to accept something as being from God.

Indeed, but to every religion it would be problematic to automatically say that every single text that one claims is from God, is actually from God, each religion for its own definitions and guidelines to what a Godly text is.

 

[Harel13]

I dont know how relevant this is. what Muslims say, what you say, what is said in the news, etc etc is not scripture.

Quran says "Innalladheena aamanu waalladheena hadhoo, wal nasaaraa, or those who believe, Jews, and Christians" will see salvation or/and will not have to worry if they believe in God, do amila Saalihan or "do things that are good and make a difference".

I think it is relevant. How do Muslims interpret the Quran? If there's a place in the world for Jews and Christians to remain as they are, then there's no reason to attempt to convert them.

 

[stvdv]

Why?

My favorite Scripture is the Yoga Vasistha:
yuktti yukttam upādeyaṁ vacanaṁ bālakād api anyat tṛṇam iva tyājyam apy ukttaṁ padmajanmanā (II.18.3)
Even a young boy’s words are to be accepted if they are words of wisdom; else, reject it like straw even if uttered by Brahmā the creator.

 

[firedragon]

I think it is relevant. How do Muslims interpret the Quran? If there's a place in the world for Jews and Christians to remain as they are, then there's no reason to attempt to convert them.

You want to convert them?

 

[Harel13]

You want to convert them?

I don't, but don't Muslims have such an interest (at least some)?

 

[firedragon]

I don't, but don't Muslims have such an interest (at least some)?

Oh. Everyone has these kind of interests but thats not relevant to the topic brother. Thats why i was wondering what it was all about.

 

[danieldemol]

Again. This is about what the Quran is saying.

1. Nevertheless, you think the Christians referred to their scripture as "The Gospel"? Not "the Bible"?
2. Dont you think that "People of the book" sounds like its one book? Al Kithab. The Book.
3. So should not it be "People of books"? or something? So should it be Kuthub instead of Kithab?
4. The Quran refers itsself as "The book" or "Al Kithab" right at the beginning. Zalikal Kithaba la raiba feehi. So does that mean "People of the book" must be referring to the Quran itself? Afterall, its the same word. Al Kithab. The Book.
5. Thus, thinking of all of this, people of the book who are Jews and Christians with their own written down books in book form, when the Quran says "we have sent down to you the book as a clarification" in lets say a verse like 16:89 which book is it referring to? People of the book must be with "the book" so which book is the Quran referring to in the verse 16:89 which is supposed to be a clarification for all things etc etc?

I am only following your line of reasoning. The book means a book that was written down. That was your reasoning. So what do you think of these points?

I’ve been reading through some historical notes and it seems to be that the Pe****ta was the Bible widespread through Arabia at the time of Muhammad, and which I think He most probably referred to.

My hypothesis may be wrong, but I will try to answer your questions in accordance with my hypothesis.

1. Let’s say it was called the Bible, it was still amalgamated into one book by the time of Muhammad

2. Yes, see above

3. No, see above

4. People of the book could refer to followers of Muhammad, not to the Quran itself. But the Quran itself according to my understanding is an amalgamation of writings that were not all issued at once, thus it is correct to call the Quran “the book” in the same sense it is correct to call the Bible “the Book”

5. In its context this is talking about the Quran, but there is no evidence that the people of the book (Jews and Christians) were people of the Quran. Therefore in its historical context people of the book would refer to people of the Bible.

 

[firedragon]

I’ve been reading through some historical notes and it seems to be that the Pe****ta was the Bible widespread through Arabia at the time of Muhammad, and which I think He most probably referred to.

My hypothesis may be wrong, but I will try to answer your questions in accordance with my hypothesis.

1. Let’s say it was called the Bible, it was still amalgamated into one book by the time of Muhammad

2. Yes, see above

3. No, see above

4. People of the book could refer to followers of Muhammad, not to the Quran itself. But the Quran itself according to my understanding is an amalgamation of writings that were not all issued at once, thus it is correct to call the Quran “the book” in the same sense it is correct to call the Bible “the Book”

5. In its context this is talking about the Quran, but there is no evidence that the people of the book (Jews and Christians) were people of the Quran. Therefore in its historical context people of the book would refer to people of the Bible.

Theres nothing much to think, the bible existed in its full form at the time and has been carbon dated to 200 years before Muhammed including the apocrypha and some other books like Barnabas, Hermas, Clement etc. Thats not the question i asked. Your answer is irrelevant. You have not understood a single question i asked in order to make you understand the dilemma in understanding the word Al Kithab as a book that has definitely been written down.

Nevertheless, People of the book does not ever in your life mean that it has to be in a book form. Thats your lack of understanding. Ahlus Sabah means people of the morning. Ahlus Sunnah means people of the way/law. Ahlul Thariq means people of the path. Ahlal Riba means people of interest/usury but that doesnt mean they are taking usury, its a sign of bad ethics. Ahlal Kithab means people of the scripture. That doesn't mean a physical book. All that needs is a simple understanding of the language.

Peace