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Quran mentions "Taurat, Zabur, Injil, furqan, Qur'an". What are they?

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
The Quran speak of Jews many times. It speaks of the Torah directly many times. Other times when the Quran says Ahlul Kithab, or Wahi or What was sent down or Anzala, it is generic reference to scripture/revelation, not necessarily specific to the Torah. Even if it is specific to the Torah, the whole question in the OP is "Is that Torah what we now see as being called Torah in the Old Testament, through the lens of the Quran". Hope you understand.
Do u you have a theory on this that you are trying to validate or conversely rule out?

The answer to this question would be very helpful for me if you would like my help answering the question.

Regardless, I'm happy to simply read the responses and learn from the other contributors to this thread.

Thank you,
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
You are right about the number 18. I had the number of times Moses was mentioned (136) with the Torah.

I figured out later bro all good. Which goes to show how much we associate Quran/Taurat with Moses though the Quran does not say the Taurat was indeed given to moses.

Here’s an interesting verse where Allah refers to having taught Jesus the Torah and the Gospel.


[The Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, remember My favor upon you and upon your mother when I supported you with the Pure Spirit and you spoke to the people in the cradle and in maturity; and [remember] when I taught you writing and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and when you designed from clay [what was] like the form of a bird with My permission, then you breathed into it, and it became a bird with My permission; and you healed the blind and the leper with My permission; and when you brought forth the dead with My permission; and when I restrained the Children of Israel from [killing] you when you came to them with clear proofs and those who disbelieved among them said, "This is not but obvious magic."

— Quran, sura 5 (Al-Ma'ida), ayah 110[7]

We know Jesus was a Jew whose religion is founded on the Torah the Jews had in their possession. In the Gospels He is recorded on numerous occasions making clear references to this book. For example when He expounds on the greatest law to love God He is essentially quoting from Deuteronomy 6:4-5. He made no mention of any problem with the Torah the Israelites had in their possession.

Yes. Jesus was taught the Torah. Torah means law.

I agree the Quran say no such thing. Do you think it would be reasonable to assume the Gospel and the Torah the Christians and Jews had in their possession during Muhammad’s lifetime was much the same as we have now?

What the Jews and Christians had at the time of Muhammed in the 7th century is probably the same as we have now or at least similar. There could be small differences in the NT with the lack of Hermas, Barnabas, Clement etc which i do believe is the right thing to do anyway.

I agree with the uncertainty around the authorship of Psalms from a modern biblical scholarship perspective. The same problem exists to varying degrees for all four Gospels and the Torah itself.

I did not speak of modern scholarship of the Bible. But if that is a criteria, modern scholarship has questioned authorship of many books.

Thanks.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Do u you have a theory on this that you are trying to validate or conversely rule out?

The answer to this question would be very helpful for me if you would like my help answering the question.

Regardless, I'm happy to simply read the responses and learn from the other contributors to this thread.

Thank you,

My theory? Hmm. Bro, i have not been asked this question. Okay my theory is that Muslims were immensely influenced by the Christians in their understanding of things. Thats why they immediately associate all these so called "scripture" mentioned in the Quran to exactly what Christians believe. But this adherence emerged 100s of years after Muhammed and a lot of it through the division of the Shii/Sunni divide. This increased in intensity in the 19th and 20th century.

Im kidding. This is reality not theory and has been cited by many Islamic scholars of antiquity including the oldest recorded and respected Islamic Fikh scholar called Imam Malik.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Im kidding.
LOL! You totally gawt me... :tearsofjoy: That was awesome.

My theory? Hmm. Bro, i have not been asked this question. Okay my theory is that Muslims were immensely influenced by the Christians in their understanding of things. Thats why they immediately associate all these so called "scripture" mentioned in the Quran to exactly what Christians believe. But this adherence emerged 100s of years after Muhammed and a lot of it through the division of the Shii/Sunni divide. This increased in intensity in the 19th and 20th century.

Note: You hopefully know that I am not Christian. It's an ongoing problem for me both in real life and here on RF. I am actually very sensitive about being mislabeled, misjudged and such. It is true that I gravitate towards apologetics, but I'm not sure why that in of itself would invalidate an explanation/answer to your question.

But i digress...

Moving back to the topic: Am I misunderstanding your question? It sounded to me, from the wording in the OP, that you're asking about the intention of the meaning of the word Taurat in the Qur'an? And that's why I was asking about Qur'an 6:5. I feel like it may be a clue to help you with this mysterious word. Are you sure that Qur'an 6:5 is irrelevant in this?
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Do we? I've never heard of these...
Why bring in Jews and Christians, though? The Quran is a Muslim text. Is it really important what people of other faiths opinionated about the identity of these books?
Koran is the word of God
The Koran does mention Jews and Christians.
So God did give Jews and Christians a place in His new Holy Book.

Personally if God grants mankind a New Holy Book, I feel it's important to me also.
To me it does not matter if God gave it to another person, country or culture.
If it's God's words, that's all that matters to me
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
LOL! You totally gawt me... :tearsofjoy: That was awesome.



Note: You hopefully know that I am not Christian. It's an ongoing problem for me both in real life and here on RF. I am actually very sensitive about being mislabeled, misjudged and such. It is true that I gravitate towards apologhetics, but I'm not sure why that in of itself would invalidate an explaination/answer to your question.

But i digress...

Moving back to the topic: Am I misunderstanding your question? It sounded to me, from the wording in the OP, that you're asking about the intention of the meaning of the word Taurat in the Qur'an? And that's why I was asking about Qur'an 6:5. I feel like it may be a clue to help you with this mysterious word. Are you sure that Qur'an 6:5 is irrelevant in this?

No brother. You know sometimes i write so fast it may not speak exactly what i have in mind. It happens to many people. So i think i have not been clear.

I have stated exactly what the word Taurat means. It means law. But it is referring to scripture. And one should know that there is absolutely no indication the Quran is referring to a particular book. None at all.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Koran is the word of God
The Koran does mention Jews and Christians.
So God did give Jews and Christians a place in His new Holy Book
A place, as Jews and Christians or a place as converts to Islam?
Personally if God grants mankind a New Holy Book, I feel it's important to me also.
To me it does not matter if God gave it to another person, country or culture.
If it's God's words, that's all that matters to me
That's commendable, but usually arguments stem from: is this new book actually from God or not?
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Hmmm... Interesting. Why both? I would expect that since Jews and Christians adhere to beliefs that Muslims say are wrong, at the very least Muslims would say: Okay, you don't want to convert? Fine. But you can't keep calling yourselves Jews/Christians because those names reflect certain falsehoods. At best, you can be Allah-worshipping gentiles (as opposed to Allah-worshipping Muslims).
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
A place, as Jews and Christians or a place as converts to Islam?
If do not believe that God would ever say/mean "Jews and Christians ... a place as converts to Islam"
If Muslims interpret Koran this way, or if they translate it this way, I will discard these words as not being from God

That's commendable, but usually arguments stem from: is this new book actually from God or not?
God gave us discrimination and conscience. As long as they are not purified, then it's true that it's not easy to accept something as being from God.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Hmmm... Interesting. Why both? I would expect that since Jews and Christians adhere to beliefs that Muslims say are wrong, at the very least Muslims would say: Okay, you don't want to convert? Fine. But you can't keep calling yourselves Jews/Christians because those names reflect certain falsehoods. At best, you can be Allah-worshipping gentiles (as opposed to Allah-worshipping Muslims).

I dont know how relevant this is. what Muslims say, what you say, what is said in the news, etc etc is not scripture.

Quran says "Innalladheena aamanu waalladheena hadhoo, wal nasaaraa, or those who believe, Jews, and Christians" will see salvation or/and will not have to worry if they believe in God, do amila Saalihan or "do things that are good and make a difference".
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
There are many places in the Quran where Taurat, Zabur, Injil, Quran are mentioned.

1. Muslims, Jews and Christians predominantly believe that these are all books that were written down in the past at some point. Each faith of course would vary in their interpretation of this idea but were they actually written down in book form, scrolls or what ever written down forms? Based on Quran, how do we know this?

2. Why is the mention of a Quran, which is the only reference to a scripture that means a recitation or a reading? Everything else will have meanings like law, story or source/origin/appearance etc while Quran means a recital/reading. Does that have any significance?

3. We attribute the Taurat to Musa or moses. But does the Quran say that it was the book given to Moses? Nowhere. So based on this attribution that was inherited from older traditions maybe people associated that with the pentateuch. Did they?

4. The Quran associates the Zabur with David. But does that mean its the Psalms found in the Tanah?

5. Injil is associated with Jesus the son of Maryam. Does that mean its the Gospels that is in the title of four books recognised as the canonical gospels? Or is it what Jesus preached?

Are we making a lot of assumptions based on famous news around the world? Opinions! What do you have to say?
If you ask these questions as a believer person, who believes in divinity of Quran, let me first ask you this question:
If the revelations before Quran, such as Injil, Torah, etc, were not properly existed among people, before Quran, how did God guide them and how were those people were supposed to know the true Laws of God to follow. My question is about before revelation of the Quran, therefore do not say, Quran told them the Laws of God, as the Quran had not yet been revealed to humanity.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
If you ask these questions as a believer person, who believes in divinity of Quran, let me first ask you this question:
If the revelations before Quran, such as Injil, Torah, etc, were not properly existed among people, before Quran, how did God guide them and how were those people were supposed to know the true Laws of God to follow. My question is about before revelation of the Quran, therefore do not say, Quran told them the Laws of God, as the Quran had not yet been revealed to humanity.

This question is about what the book says brother. Even if its divine, not divine, or the work of many.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
This question is about what the book says brother. Even if its divine, not divine, or the work of many.
I think that whether one assumes it is divine or not is central to the discussion because if it is divine one has to explain the obvious contradictions in it whereas if it is not divine this constraint is removed and we can read the text for what it actually says without attempting to rationalise it.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I think that whether one assumes it is divine or not is central to the discussion because if it is divine one has to explain the obvious contradictions in it whereas if it is not divine this constraint is removed and we can read the text for what it actually says without attempting to rationalise it.

So please read it in relevance to the topic just as a book and give your thoughts.

Cheers.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
So please read it in relevance to the topic just as a book and give your thoughts.

Cheers.
The Quran claims to verify, “that which they [ie people’s of the book]* have”
See for example Quran 2:89 and 2:191
*(please note comment in parentheses is added by me)

This means that at the time of Muhammad the peoples of the book (Jews and Christians) had what was essentially the message of the Taurat, Zabur, and Injil

We know historically that there is little change between what they had then and the Taurat, Zabur and Injil that Christians and Jews have today.

For a fuller exposition of this see:
Corruption of Previous Scriptures (Qur'an 2:79) - WikiIslam


And also;
Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Corruption of Previous Scriptures - WikiIslam
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
The Quran claims to verify, “that which they [ie people’s of the book]* have”
See for example Quran 2:89 and 2:191
*(please note comment in parentheses is added by me)

This means that at the time of Muhammad the peoples of the book (Jews and Christians) had what was essentially the message of the Taurat, Zabur, and Injil

We know historically that there is little change between what they had then and the Taurat, Zabur and Injil that Christians and Jews have today.

For a fuller exposition of this see:
Corruption of Previous Scriptures (Qur'an 2:79) - WikiIslam


And also;
Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Corruption of Previous Scriptures - WikiIslam

The point is that the Quran does not state anywhere explicitly if they were written down. Thahthuhu. Write down.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The point is that the Quran does not state anywhere explicitly if they were written down. Thahthuhu. Write down.
What the peoples of the book had was written down, that’s how we know the book that Arab Christians/Jews had then is the same as what they have today.
 
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