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Featured Quick question about eve and the devil and the garden of eden

Discussion in 'Religions Q&A' started by Frank Goad, Jun 6, 2019.

  1. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Its a myth borrowed from the Babylonians.
     
  2. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    when I read Genesis
    I try to note the scenario as an event
    and the tale is told with metaphor applied to the characters

    something happened to alter the form and spirit of Man

    Adam is a CHOSEN son of God
    the garden was a petri dish
    Eve is a clone.....not born of woman...no navel
    and Adam was given his twin sister for a bride

    all of that is physical

    but the dialog cannot be held to the words spoken
    you have to look for the meaning
     
  3. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Since when did Adam have a twin sister?

    You think an omniscient didn't know where this would go?

    More than likely its an allegory about the change from hunter-gatherers to agriculturists.. and their burden of failing to trust in the providence of the creator.
     
  4. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    nay

    prior to the garden event Man was just another creature
    doing the snatch and grab
    possible tribal
    much like any other ape

    and when dying.....not enough spirit to survive the last breath
    the creature simply died

    the garden event changed the species
    Adam became aware his difference and complained a lack of suitable mate

    a mate was formed of a rib

    cloned
     
  5. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Good grief.. other civilizations were well established and could write before Genesis.
     
  6. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    yeah.....
    but the garden event would be a quantum leap
     
  7. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    If I am understaning what you have said above, Jesus is rejecting the oral tradition that is beleived to have been passed down teacher to student in Judaism.

    This is problematic ( somewhat hypocritcal, forgive me ) if a person claims that the bible is inerrant ( a strongly held precept of Jehovas Witness )?

    It's problematic because without the oral tradition, no one would know what the hebrew words of the Old Testament mean. Without the oral tradition, there are no vowels in the entire Old Testatment. Additionally, wihtout the oral tradition, there are no grammar rules. No one would know if Genesis 1:1 is speaking about God as the single source of creation, or if there were two Gods (one named B'reishies who in turn created God, the Heavens, and Earth ). Even worse, without the oral tradition, no one would know conclusively whether the text was to be read right to left or left to right.

    I don't mean to be rude, and i apologize if this is a frustrating question to answer. But:

    If Jesus rejected the Rabbis who passed down the oral tradition as strongly as you have stated, wouldn't Jesus, himself, need to retell the entire Old Testament in order for it to be authoritative?
     
  8. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    He was talking about the religious leaders...the High Priest and others of the Sanhedrin who were conspiring against him. They were influencing the people against him.
    Even before Jesus began his ministry, John the Baptizer was warning about them.

    Matthew 2:7-10....
    "When he caught sight of many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to the baptism, he said to them: “You offspring of vipers, who has warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Therefore, produce fruit that befits repentance. 9 Do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones. 10 The ax is already lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire."
     
    #108 Deeje, Jun 8, 2019
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  9. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    If you understand that the oral traditions also included distorting the meaning of God's laws, then you will understand why Jesus rejected their teachings.

    Who told you this? This sounds like nonsense to me.
    Considered by the Jews to be a complement to the Hebrew Scriptures, the Talmud sets out an exhaustive code of conduct that addresses every aspect of life.
    While much of the Talmud was highly legalistic, its illustrations and explanations reflected the clear influence of Greek philosophy. For example, Greek religious concepts, such as the immortal soul, were expressed in Jewish terms. Truly, in that new Rabbinic era, veneration of the Talmud....by then a blend of legalistic and Greek philosophy.....grew among the Jews until, by the Middle Ages, the Talmud came to be revered by the Jews more than the Bible itself.

    Although the Talmud provides interesting background information on Jewish traditions and interpretation of the Scriptures, it teaches people to think legalistically, not in terms of God’s justice and love. (Matthew 23:23-24; Luke 11:42)

    In Matthew 15:2 Jesus alludes to a problem that the Jews had with washing their hands before eating.....that is, a ceremonial cleansing to adhere to tradition rather than out of concern for hygiene. Later, the Babylonian Talmud (Sotah 4b) puts eating with unwashed hands on par with having relations with a harlot, and it states that those who lightly esteem hand washing will be “uprooted from the world.”

    The Talmud was hardly a reflection of God's word or the spirit behind the Law of Moses because it presented God as a pedantic, law obsessed, nit-picker.

    If you read Jesus words to the Jews, you will see the answer....

    In his famous Sermon on the Mount Jesus said....
    "Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill; 18 for truly I say to you that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one particle of a letter to pass away from the Law by any means and not all things take place. Whoever, therefore, breaks one of these least commandments and teaches mankind to that effect, he will be called ‘least’ in relation to the kingdom of the heavens. As for anyone who does them and teaches them, this one will be called ‘great’ in relation to the kingdom of the heavens. 20 For I say to you that if your righteousness does not abound more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter into the kingdom of the heavens.

    21 You heard that it was said to those of ancient times, ‘You must not murder; but whoever commits a murder will be accountable to the court of justice.’ 22 However, I say to you that everyone who continues wrathful with his brother will be accountable to the court of justice; but whoever addresses his brother with an unspeakable word of contempt will be accountable to the Supreme Court; whereas whoever says, ‘You despicable fool!’ will be liable to the fiery Ge·henʹna." (Matthew 5:17-22)


    If you read on in Matthew ch 5, you will see that when Jesus used this expression "You heard it was said"....he was alluding to the oral traditions, but he went further when he added..."but I say to you".....he was addressing the spirit behind the law....a spirit that the Talmud missed.

    You heard that it was said, ‘You must not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that everyone that keeps on looking at a woman so as to have a passion for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

    Jesus addressed the first steps in a chain reaction leading to adultery. He continued to teach above the Talmud, stating the reasons behind why the Law was given.

    Jesus taught from scripture, not tradition.
     
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  10. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    This is where I'm stuck: "sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one particle of a letter to pass away from the Law". But, I feel like I need to spend more time learning before I ask any more questions.

    Thank you very much,
     
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  11. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    You are using apocrypha to support this....it carries no weight. In fact, it contradicts the Bible Canon. Ecclesiastes 9 5,10; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:3-4; Genesis 3:19, all state the person is gone at death. Not the body, but the person,

    Only to come back, at the Resurrection.
     
  12. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
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    1) REGARDING THE CLAIM THAT ANCIENT JEWS DID NOT BELIEVE IN AN AFTERLIFE

    Post #41 @Deeje said "The ancient Jews did not believe in an afterlife"

    Post #52 @dybmh replied : "Based on Psalm 139:8 ( and other places too ) I thought that Ancient Jews did believe in an afterlife. “

    Post #56 Clear said : “dybmh, Your are actually quite correct on this point. @Deeje is mistaken on this specific point.” I then gave two examples of Jewish belief

    I gave another in post #61


    Post #72 Deeje said : “ The one thing I think you are forgetting is that Israel was basically a very unfaithful nation when it came to obedience…”

    Post #78 Clear pointed out this is irrelevant to the fact that ancient Jews DID believe in an afterlife.

    Post #72 Deeje claimed : “You cannot rely on Jewish sources outside of the Hebrew scriptures to furnish your information…”

    Post #78 Clear pointed out that ancient Jews and Christians wrote MANY texts that indicate what they believed and how they interpreted texts sacred to them. To a historian, the diaries, mischnas, Talmude, Jewish Hagadah, lectionaries, textual source materials, secular histories, etc can tell us as much about what Judeo-Christians believed and how they interpreted scriptures as the scriptural text can. Then I gave almost three DOZEN examples from early Judeo-Christian literature that demonstrated the ancient Judeo-Christians DID believe in an afterlife.



    2) DISREGARDING ANCIENT DATA IS NOT THE WAY TO LEARN HISTORY

    Post #85 Deeje said : “As I said, I have no interest in what Jews said or didn't say (past or present) that is outside of scripture.”


    You cannot BE an authentic historian of Judeo-Christian beliefs if you will not allow the Ancient Jews and Christians to explain their OWN religious beliefs in their own words and their OWN interpretation of the sacred texts.


    3) THE ANCIENTS INTERPRETED THEIR SCRIPTURES DIFFERENTLY THAN DEEJE

    Post #85 Deeje gave an example of how Deeje personally would interpret the Jewish text, Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10.... "For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, …. And then proceeded to offer the Jehovahs Witness interpretation on the text.

    Post #88 and 89 Clear offered the ancient JEWISH interpretation of this same text that re-confirmed their belief in an afterlife. I then gave another 6 examples from the Jews themselves using the Jewish Talmud and other sources AGAIN demonstrating with multiple examples that the ancient Jews DID believe in an afterlife.



    4) ATTRIBUTING DEVILISH CHARACTERISTICS TO ANCIENT JUDE0-CHRISTIANITY THAT DISAGREES WITH OUR OWN IS NOT JUSTIFIABLE


    Post #97 Deeje said : “…you are again quoting those whom Jesus rejected as teachers of God's word. If you can't use the Bible to back up what you believe, then you are relying on the words of those whom Jesus identified as the worst of teachers....from their "father the devil…”


    Deeje, It is more difficult to keep a conversation logical and rational and data based if we allow our responses to evolve into an emotional based discussion. If you were my child, arguing with their math teacher who teaches that 2+2 is 4, and you argue that he is “of the devil” I would try to point out that it doesn’t matter if you like the teacher or not, if you are to learn math, you will have to follow where the data takes you. History is similar.

    Your claim that the ancient Jews did not believe in an afterlife has been shown repeatedly to be incorrect by ancient Jewish textual claims themselves. There is NO reason to respond emotionally and claim that the ancients were “of the devil”. This emotional response will not change the historical fact that the ancient Judeo-Christian texts demonstrate they believed in and described in detail their belief in an after life.

    Please Deeje, be at peace. Your life is not being threatened and no one is attacking you. You have simply been shown to be in error on historical points. Instead of claiming the Jews were “of the devil”, why not be glad of discovery and new insights?



    5) THE EFFECTS OF CHARACTERIZING THE ANCIENT JEWS AND ANCIENT CHRISTIANS AS “OF THE DEVIL” DOES NOT SOLVE THE HISTORICAL PROBLEM BUT CREATES HISTORICAL DILEMMAS

    There are profound effects to abandonment of logic and rational thought and refusal to use historical data by labeling ancient Jews and Christians and their writings and opinion as “of the devil”. If we allow ourselves to come to ignorant historical conclusions we then become subject to the consequences of those conclusions.

    1 Enoch 2:1 of 300 b.c. reads :
    Behold, he comes with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon them, and destroy the wicked, and reprove all the carnal for everything which the sinful and ungodly have done, and committed against him.

    The writer of Jude, 400 years later quotes the Enoch text "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied saying..." :
    Then New Testament Jude quotes the enoch text : "
    ...Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (jude 1:14 NIV)

    If you claim that the Book of Enoch of 300 b.c. is “of the devil”, then how does it affect New Testament Jude when Jude quotes the very book you claim was written by those who are “of the devil”? Lawrence found over 127 references to 1 Enoch in the New testament texts. How does this affect the credibility of the New Testament Text if much of it is "of the Devil"? This new claim of yours has historical consequences.


    Such Illogical and irresponsible historical conclusions create more historical problems.


    If you dismiss early Christians and their writings as “of the Devil” in order to justify dismissing their beliefs and doctrines that are different than your own, this creates historical problems as well.


    For example, I quoted from Clement, who is mentioned in New Testament Phillipians 4:3 3 And I entreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.


    While Clement is a convert of the Apostle Peter (and ordained a bishop by Peter), and while Paul recommends Clement as among those whose names are “in the book of life”, YOU label him and his diary and other writings as “of the devil” in order to justify disregarding the early beliefs he describes as Christianity of his age. This is not a responsible position for you to take and it is not justifiable to disparage the early Christians simply because they did not believe as you do.

    Please Deeje, be at peace on this historical issue. It is ok to be wrong on this specific issue of "ancient Jewish belief". Whether or not your Christianity is somehow superior to early Christianity was never the historical point but rather it was whether the ancient Jews believed in an afterlife.


    In any case Deeje, I hope your lifes’ journey is good and that you have many wonderful insights in your journey toward wisdom.


    Clear
    νεδρνεω
     
    #112 Clear, Jun 9, 2019
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  13. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
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    HockeyCowboy claimed : "You are using apocrypha to support this....it carries no weight."

    Hi HockeyCowboy,

    I understand that you are definitely NOT a historian, still, you should be aware that The Jewish Talmud is NOT apocrypha. The Jewish Pseudepigrapha is NOT apocrypha. The Haggadah is NOT apocrypha. The early Christian and syncretic texts I referred to are NOT the apocrypha. I am not sure you can find a single quote I used in any of my posts in this thread came from the apocrypha (maybe one? I don't know and don't care to look - perhaps you can actually read what I wrote and show me a quote from the apocrypha?).

    The other thing you must remember is that YOUR texts and YOUR christianity is not the same as all other christians of all times and all places.

    While early texts, including the apocrypha, are not important to you personally, the early Judeo-Christian texts WERE important to the early Judeo-Christians who wrote them to spread and explain the early christian faith, and to those who read them, and to the writers of sacred texts who used them and quoted from them and they are certainly very, very important to religious historians who are seeking to understand what early Judaism and early Christianity was like, it's beliefs, it's interpretation, it's texts, etc.

    While early Judeo-Christianity and it's texts are not important to you, they were to early Judeo-Christians and they are to scholars and religious historians.


    HockeyCowboy claimed : " In fact, it contradicts the Bible Canon. Ecclesiastes 9 5,10; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:3-4; Genesis 3:19, all state the person is gone at death. Not the body, but the person"

    HockyCowboy, the ancient Jewish and Christians and their historical texts contradict your personal religious doctrines and your personal INTERPRETATION of these texts on this point of whether the ancient Jews believed in an afterlife. Your use of scriptures is different than early Judeo-Christianity.

    You must, at some point, come to understand that the early Jews and the early Christians did NOT have the same religion as you do. They did not have the same worldviews as you do and they did not have the same interpretation of the texts as you do, (as you just inadvertently demonstrated).

    The ancient Jews DID have a belief in an afterlife and, as I pointed out, they used ecclesiastes 9 in the Jewish talmud, to explain their belief in a constant after life of spirits.

    In any case, IF you ever become interested in the deeper studies of early Christian history, you will become interested in these texts, you will become interested in early languages such as Greek or Hebrew; you will become interested in critical texts to allow you to compare differing versions of biblical texts; you will become interested in gaining a greater historical context and understanding of ancient religion.

    Good luck HockyCowboy.

    Clear
    νεδρνεω
     
    #113 Clear, Jun 9, 2019
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  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    You missed the last part of that verse....Jesus said...."truly I say to you that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one particle of a letter to pass away from the Law by any means and not all things take place."

    What are "all things" that had to take place? Jesus had a short three and a half years to accomplish all that God sent him to do here. The Law was in force right up until he instituted the "new covenant" on the night of his arrest.
    The next day he was executed. "All things" were concluded with his death. A new arrangement was now in force....not based on Law but on Faith.

    In his letter to the Galatians, the Apostle Paul said....."....before the faith arrived, we were being guarded under law, being handed over into custody, looking to the faith that was about to be revealed. 24 So the Law became our guardian leading to Christ, so that we might be declared righteous through faith. 25 But now that the faith has arrived, we are no longer under a guardian." (Galatians 3:23-25)

    Romans 10:2-4...of his fellow Jews Paul said....
    "For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to accurate knowledge. 3 For because of not knowing the righteousness of God but seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the Law, so that everyone exercising faith may have righteousness."

    The Law was perfect but the people were not. It was a "curse" (Galatians 3:13) because it condemned them on a daily basis, making animal sacrifices (according to the Law) necessary for their sins on a regular basis. But once Christ offered his life, those animal sacrifices were no longer necessary. His was a permanent "ransom" paid on behalf of all mankind forever.

    One can never have too much knowledge. The Bible explains itself....if you let it. Gleaning your information from other sources will just cause you confusion....especially from distorted Jewish writings. God's word should be all we need to provide all our answers.....IMO, it is the only thing we can trust in a world ruled by the devil. (1 John 5:19) It was what Jesus relied on to teach his disciples. (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

    Thank you for asking questions...its how we learn. :)
     
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  15. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Can I ask why you need to write these posts in such large type? Do you have a problem with your vision?

    When I said "ancient" I meant those who adhered to the writings of Moses....not those who distorted those writings in later periods.
    Both Judaism and early Christianity suffered the same problem....they left the scriptures to concentrate on the writings, thoughts and ideas of men. Jesus castigated the Scribes and Pharisees for doing that. He also warned that "weeds" would be sown after the Apostles had died. Christendom is a mirror image of apostate Judaism. Both were corrupted by the same entity, identified by Jesus is both cases as the devil. (John 8:42-44; Matthew 13:24-30; Matthew 13: 36-43) I will take Jesus' word for that. You can accept whatever you wish.

    Telling the truth as the Bible clearly states it is not based on emotion, but on fact. Read the cited scriptures and see for yourself. The Bible contains NO belief in an afterlife.....that is the difference.

    LOL....I am very much at peace because I know what the Bible teaches. I was not aware that I was under threat....just stating my case as I understand it. I have been a Bible student and teacher for over 45 years. Just sharing what I have learned after many years of deep study.

    And since I do not have any "new insights" (did you think you provided some?) I will stick to what I know, and have come to believe among a global brotherhood of eight and a half million, who all believe the same things as I do. (1 Corinthians 1:10) We are no part of Christendom. (Revelation 18:4-5)

    May I ask what 'brand' of "Christianity" you subscribe to? Who are your brethren?

    You don't seem to understand that I have no interest in being "an authentic historian of Judeo-Christian beliefs" if it means including the religious ramblings of apostates....both Jewish and Christian. God provided us with scripture so that we could study his word and understand its message and why there are so many different approaches to the worship of supposedly the same God. Those ancient Jews and Christians that you mentioned, were really nothing of the sort, which is why I do not need their testimony about anything. Perhaps you are getting frustrated because your own version of events has been challenged?

    When Jesus comes as judge.....those "Christians" who try to justify themselves before him are rejected completely as those Christ "NEVER KNEW". (Matthew 7:21-23) Do you see that he has never acknowledged fake, weed-like, "Christianity" at any time. He said it was planted by the devil. So I will again take Jesus words as Gospel. OK?

    Sorry, but I have to laugh again...who has abandoned logic and rational thought by accepting Jesus' words over those who left the truth to promote the lie? To me, ignorance is accepting what is unacceptable to Jesus.....its that simple really.

    I wish you well and we will just have to agree to disagree about this.
     
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  16. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    In 1995, Jehovah's Witnesses abandoned the idea that Armageddon must occur during the lives of the generation that was alive in 1914 and in 2010 changed their teaching on the "generation".
     
  17. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
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    1) Post #41 @Deeje claimed "The ancient Jews did not believe in an afterlife" (post #41)

    Posts #65, 78, 80, 88, 89, Clear showed this historical claim to be in error and gave many, many examples from Jewish texts demonstrating they DID believe in an afterlife.

    Please, If ANYONE sees ANY ancient data from Deeje other than his personal interpretation of scriptures that demonstrated the Jews did NOT believe in an afterlife, tell me or P.M. me. - clear



    2) Deeje claims : “… I have no interest in being "an authentic historian of Judeo-Christian beliefs" (Deeje, #115)

    The problem is that you, as a non-historian, tend to make incorrect historical claims in order to support your religious theories.

    What happens when some historically naïve individuals believe your erroneous historical claims are true? This causes them to make the same historical and religious errors as you make. It perpetuates religious errors to do this. THIS is why you need to attempt to learn accurate historical data if you are going to make historical claims.

    These public admissions that you do not have interest in ancient Judeo-Christian beliefs and their history undermine your credibility. Other forum members value honesty and correct data.



    3) Speaking of the ancient Jews and Christians, Deeje claims : “…I do not need their testimony about anything. “ (Deeje, #115)

    You DO need to be aware of what the ancient Jews and the Ancient Christians describe as their beliefs IF you want to make correct statements about their beliefs (or if you want to develop some credibility). Other forum members value honesty and correct data.


    4) Deeje asks : “Perhaps you are getting frustrated because your own version of events has been challenged?” (post #115)

    I admit that it is bothersome to attempt to have a historical conversation with a non-historian who makes a claim but then cannot offer historical data to support the historical claim. Your claim that early Jews and early Christians are "of the devil" does not take the place of historical data.

    I am not frustrated that you believe differently than myself or that your beliefs are different than early Christianity. I think this is fine and I honor any commitment you have to living a good life and honoring God. I do not think demonizing the early Christians (or their texts - some of which are in the bible) for their beliefs is a good thing and demonizing them does NOT compensate for your lack of relevant historical data to support your historical claim.

    You have, so far, NOT been able to challenge the historical fact that the Ancient Jews DID believe in an afterlife with any significant data other than to give your own interpretation of a scripture or two. I gave you the ancient JEWISH interpretation of the same scripture which SUPPORTS the ancient belief in an afterlife.

    I am satisfied that forum members are able to come to their own conclusion with the historical data I offered them from more than three dozen examples from the ancient Judeo-Christians themselves.


    In any case Deeje, IF you ever do become interested in early Christianity and their beliefs, I hope it becomes a good and satisfying experience for you and it then makes sense why religious historians take such satisfaction and joy in their work and why the accumulation of correct historical information is so important.

    I hope you have a good spiritual journey Deeje

    Clear
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    #117 Clear, Jun 9, 2019
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  18. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I assume that you do understand progressive revelation of the truths contained in God's word?

    When Jesus appointed a "faithful and discreet slave" to "feed" his household their "food at the proper time" (Matthew 24:45) it is obvious that when supplying food to others, it is provided at intervals. We don't "eat" our food all at once, for good reasons.

    According to Proverbs 4:18...
    "...the path of the righteous is like the bright morning light
    That grows brighter and brighter until full daylight."


    The light of truth shines to illuminate the path that leads genuine Christians to the stated conclusion of God's purpose for his material creation. That light continues to shine down through time, leading us to greater understanding as "the end" draws near. Have we adjusted our thinking on some issues? Yes, as things became clearer, we saw the need to update our understanding.

    If you ask most Christians to tell you what they believe the Bible's big picture is, from Genesis to Revelation, they are usually so focussed on certain people and certain events, and all manner of superfluous information, that they can't really see a big picture. That big picture has never changed.

    Getting bogged down in unnecessary details, about things that don't really matter, just clouds that big picture. It's simplicity is what makes it amazing. We need nothing more than God's word to provide all our answers.

    The "generation" who saw the beginning of the last days (which we believe began in 1914,) would still be alive when "the end" of the present system of things came, according to Jesus.

    Since those chosen to rule with Jesus continued to be anointed throughout this time period, some members of that 'generation' are still in existence up to the present. (Contrary to popular opinion, not all Christians go to heaven) This is backed up by Jesus who said that their commission to preach the "good news of God's Kingdom", would continue right to "the end". (Matthew 24:14) Also confirmed by the fact that when Jesus was to return, he was to gather his chosen ones who are still alive at that time.

    Updating our understanding is what we expect....it adds to our confidence that our brotherhood is not attached to old and stagnant beliefs. Our "food" is served "at the proper time" which for us, means that we have what we need, when we need it.

    The history of the Christian church after the death of the apostles is exactly what Jesus foretold. Using that history to explain anything but its corruption is futile. The "wheat" at this point in time will not resemble the "weeds" in any way. So if your "Christianity" is basically the same as everyone else's, that is actually proof that you have it all wrong. The harvest time is looming. (Matthew 13:34-43)

    "Few" are actually on the right road. (Matthew 7:13-14)
     
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  19. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Progressive revelation is like educating a child? We aren't children. Isn't everyone on the board an adult? Religion isn't a cult, you know.
     
  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I have used only scripture which you have selectively ignored to promote your own view. Resorting to the false beliefs of those who abandoned Bible truth to corrupt its teachings is a very poor source of reliable information IMV.

    Use that same reasoning on your own views. Your historical references are apparently more important to you than the scriptures themselves. If your sources are a corrupt version of the truth, what are they really worth at the end of the day? If your views were backed up by the scriptures themselves, then that would be different, but you ignore scripture to prop up an erroneous teaching that humans experience some kind of life after death. Was Adam expecting to live in some place of punishment after he died? Is that what God told him? He is responsible for the death of the whole human race, yet where did God tell him he would go? Simply, he would go back where he came from. (Genesis 3:19)

    A public admission that I do not accept a corrupted version of Bible truth over the clear statements of the Bible itself? If members value honesty and correct data instead of weak excuses to accept an erroneous doctrine, then they will decide for themselves who is telling the truth here.

    I am aware of all of it....that is why I reject it as proof of false doctrine.
    If Jesus identified your sources as promoters of religious error instigated by the devil to lead people in the wrong direction, then I will continue to reject them. Those very sources were the cause of the murder of the one God sent to save them. They misrepresented everything Jesus said and did, and by their false interpretation of scripture, they managed to turn the whole nation into something Jesus railed against. You act as if these sources are trustworthy when they never were. Early Christianity was corrupted in exactly the same way...it is a sad and sorry history. Do you honestly believe that the fractured state of "Christianity" today is evidence of their acceptability to the God they purport to worship? True disciples of Christ are united, not divided. (1 Corinthians 1:10)

    Exactly....you gave me what an apostate nation promoted to justify their adoption of Greek philosophy and false religious concepts. I was raised with those false beliefs and when I discovered where they came from, I was appalled that both of these related religions were corrupted from early times and that the truth has all been hidden until this "time of the end" when God would provide the necessary knowledge to help us "know the truth" and to be "set free" from the religious errors that have dominated the history of the "Abrahamic" religions. (Daniel 12:4; 9-10)

    It's decision time....and we all have the same information to evaluate.....may we all make the right choices, for the right reasons.
     
    #120 Deeje, Jun 9, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2019
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