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Quick question about eve and the devil and the garden of eden

sooda

Veteran Member
LOL...who said? I am amused by these sweeping statements with nothing to back them up.

Where does this nonsense come from? If you identify as Christian and yet reject the Bible as the word of God then you just removed the foundation for your whole belief system. What kind of a "Christian" ridicules the word of God and suggests that most of it is inauthentic and that it authors never existed? Did Jesus ever do that?



You do understand that the Jewish religion was horribly corrupted for a time, don't you? (and more than once) As a nation, their leaders led them into false worship and they ended up practicing all the things that God told them not to do. Do you remember Jeremiah's words to them? Read chapter 7 and see that their worship had become detestable to their God and what God warned them that he would do about them.

You write as if the Jews practiced these abominable things with God's sanction. I assure you that they had no sanction and suffered his severe penalty.



There is no creation "myth". Moses was given the Genesis account by his God. The flood 'legend' was spread far and wide because it wasn't just a legend. There is a flood story in many cultures all over the world. How would that be possible with such limited communication between nations if it wasn't a real event?

You can choose to disbelieve it all if you wish, but if the Bible is the word of God, and you devalue it in the eyes of others, expect that its author may take a dim view of your activities.

Judaism evolved based on exposure to the other Canaanite tribes around them as well as exposure to Babylon and Egypt.

Genesis of Genesis: Where Did the Biblical Story of ...
https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/genesis-of-genesis-where-did-the-biblical...
Jun 05, 2019 · The author of Genesis 1, probably a Hebrew scribe living in Babylon during the Babylonian Exile in the 4th century BCE, was apparently creating a new version of the old creation myth that could conform with the strict monotheism which was taking hold of Judaism at the time.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
As I said, I don't identify myself with my body etc.Then it does make sense what I said. When one identifies oneself with body one misses the point

The body that you see---it isn’t really me

It’s but the womb in which I’m being formed

For I am spirit—I am mind

And it’s the only place you’ll find

WHO I AM, until the day I’m finally born.

For I will not be free, until this body that you see

Has returned to the dust from whence it came

It’s then that I’ll be born from this womb in which I’m formed

To continue on in life’s eternal game...…...The Anointed.

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, don't dey know dat?
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If I was a Trinitarian, you might have a point: a different God, and all.

But, as a follower of Christ, I worship his God...the God of the Israelites, the God of the Pentateuch. Yahweh / Jehovah. The entire Bible is His Word. It’s His thoughts there, not men’s. They were simply His secretaries, writing down what He wanted..

So, the 66 books of the canon are completely harmonious. When a person perceives contradictions within it, the problem is theirs... they simply do not have an accurate understanding of its meaning. That’s when studying the ancient words and phrases becomes useful. And other methods of study.

The Bible itself, in Daniel 12, says its words ‘would be secret’, until the Final part of the Days.
I respect your right to your faith.

But the bible is two sets of historical documents, and when they're examined according to perfectly usual historical methods, what I've said about them is neither controversial nor hard to demonstrate with a good many important examples.

And goodness, I can't see any way they could be called completely harmonious (unless we're talking about a particular typography or binding). Nor can I see how the meaning of a text from an earlier period can be changed simply because a later age would like it to mean something else.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
The Devil is the main promoter of all lies. If he didn’t originate certain false teachings ... he certainly supports them!

Did you ever wonder, in almost every culture that worships their ancestors... why is fear the main emotion involved in it? The fear of displeasing their ancestors plays heavily in it! Why? You’d think that your dead ancestors would love you, not “try to get” you!

Lots of cultures have a tree of life.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
POST ONE OF.....

Post one....of too many.....sorry.

As I said, I have no interest in what Jews said or didn't say (past or present) that is outside of scripture.
Taking scripture as coming from God, rather than from those of his errant nation, I can see quite clearly that the Bible promotes NO belief in an afterlife.

Genesis 2:7....
"Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul".

Right from the creation of man, we see that God did not "give" man a soul, but that he "became" a soul with the breath of life. The creation account calls other lifeforms "souls" [nephesh] as well. (Genesis 1:20-25) Do we imagine the souls of animals and birds and fish in heaven?

Using just the Bible.....from Genesis we see that when Adam and his wife sinned, there was no mention of heaven or hell or an afterlife of any description.

The penalty for eating the forbidden fruit was death.....no place of conscious punishment was ever mentioned, nor was there a place of reward.....just life and death, and a return to the dust from which they were created if they disobeyed his command.

In sentencing the pair he said to Adam....

"By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken;
for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”
(Genesis 3:19)

If there was a possibility of an afterlife of punishment...wasn't before the act a good time to mention it?

The One who inspired the Bible is our Creator, and he should know whether our soul is immortal or not. Not once in the sixty-six books of the Bible does he inspire a Bible writer to testify that the human soul is immortal. On the contrary, the Bible repeatedly states that the soul dies. At Leviticus 23:30 God says: “As for any person [nephesh, soul] who does any work on this same day, that person [nephesh] I will destroy from among his people.”

At Ezekiel 18:4, he also says: "The soul [nephesh] who sins will die..” The "soul" is the "person", not something that inhabits the body as a separate entity.
Do those scriptures teach that the soul is immortal?

Solomon wrote in Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10....
"For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten. 6 Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun..... Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going."

Sheol is the grave. Everyone is going there sooner or later. But if there is conscious existence, which Solomon clearly states that there is no consciousness in death, then why has love part perished? It is God's most outstanding quality.

King David too knew that the grave was a place of silence.

Psalm 115:17...
"The dead do not praise Jah,
Nor do any who go down into silence".


Psalm 146:4
"His spirit [breath] departs, he returns to the earth;
In that very day his thoughts perish".


Dead people don't think.

Plato was convinced that he had an immortal soul. And his teachings soon began to convince others who revered him as a philosopher. As a consequence, Platonic philosophy was even accepted by second-century Christian writers. The Encyclopædia Britannica states: “The Christian Platonists gave primacy to revelation and regarded Platonic philosophy as the best available instrument for understanding and defending the teachings of Scripture and church tradition. . . . From the middle of the 2nd century AD, Christians who had some training in Greek philosophy began to feel the need to express their faith in its terms, both for their own intellectual satisfaction and in order to convert educated pagans. The philosophy that suited them best was Platonism.”

The Jews as well as others became infatuated with this notion of life after death. It was adopted in later periods and infiltrated Christianity too, but not till the second century. It is not a Bible teaching...and never was.

Regardless of what the apostate Jewish nation came to believe, and likewise the apostate Christian church....there is no life after death, except by resurrection.

Even Job believed in the resurrection..... at the height of his suffering Job asked...
"Oh that You would hide me in Sheol, [the grave]

That You would conceal me until Your wrath returns to You,
That You would set a limit for me and remember me!
14 “If a man dies, will he live again?
All the days of my struggle I will wait
Until my change comes.
15 “You will call, and I will answer You;
You will long for the work of Your hands." (Job 14:13-15)

What about Jesus? What did he have to say about the soul?

"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. [gehenna] " (Matthew 10:28)


Do you see that God can "destroy" souls in "gehenna"...which is not "hell" but a symbol of everlasting death...the opposite of everlasting life.

Just using the Bible, and an understanding of the Hebrew language, can you find me any scripture that says we have an immortal soul?
 
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dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
@URAVIP2ME , The verse I was thinking of was 2 Sam 14:14... However, this is not "clearly" indicating an afterlife. Nor does it contradict what you said. And for that matter, it doesn't contradict what @Deeje and @Clear have said. I am providing it here because this verse does seem to allude to the possibility that there is a path of spiritual return even after "banishment"

upload_2019-6-8_8-50-9.png


hyperlink >>> - sefaria.org - II Samuel 14:14
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
it was a test.....but not of obedience

Man needs to be that creature curious....even if death is pending
Eve went first
Adam followed

they passed

the garden had served it's purpose
the alteration of Man's body and spirit

they were released into the environment
and the garden dismantled

to the couple this would appear to be a punishment

it was not
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
POST ONE OF TWO

1) THE CONCEPT OF PERSONAL BIAS IN OUR READING, OUR INTERPRETATIONS AND OUR CONCLUSIONS


@Deeje said : "Taking scripture as coming from God, rather than from those of his errant nation, I can see quite clearly that the Bible promotes NO belief in an afterlife."



Deeje, with all respect, the hundreds of competing Christian movements ALL tend to see their competing and incompatible positions "quite clearly”. We all create and adopt belief systems but we all do so having some biases and the theories we make often have errors in them. If you are ever going to learn to think historically, you will have to allow the people who wrote the scriptures to have their own opinions about what the scriptures meant TO THEM given THEIR interpretations. This does not mean they did not have their own errors, merely that the ancient Christians had different beliefs and interpreted their scriptures differently than you interpret yours.

If you will not read what the ancient Jews and the ancient Christians say they believed in their own words using their own description then the very narrow stream of data you are using will not allow you to have a credible historical opinion and you will be even more dependent upon personal bias in any conclusions.



2) THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A RELATIVELY MODERN INTERPRETATIONAL SYSTEM (J.W.) AND THE ANCIENT BELIEFS AND INTERPRETATIONS

For example, Jehovahs’ Witnesses often offer Ecclesiastes 9:5 as an example of “soul sleep” (a doctrine that did not exist in early Judeo-Christian literature, but is only found in relatively modern literature)

Deeje offers : Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10.... "For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten. 6 Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun..... Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going."

While Jehovahs’ witnesses adopted a theory of “soul sleep” where nothing happens, the ancient Jewish belief about both death AND sleep are very, very different and their interpretation of this scripture was quite different.

The Jewish Talmud discusses this scripture and what THEY though it meant in multiple places. For example :

The story of R. Hiyya and R. Jonathan walking through a cemetary introduces this scripture in a quaint, anecdote. While walking about in a cemetery, and the blue fringe of R. Jonathan trailed on the ground. R. Hiyya said : “Lift it up, so that they [the dead] should not say: Tomorrow they are coming to join us and now they are insulting us! He said to him: Do they know so much? Is it not written, But the dead know not anything? He replied to him: If you have read once, you have not repeated; if you have repeated, you have not gone over a third time; if you have gone over a third time, you have not had it explained to you. For the living know that they shall die: these are the righteous who in their death are called living as it says.

The reason given for not allowing the fringes to touch the ground (just as one is not supposed to read the torah aloud in a cemetary) is that it reminds the cognizant spirits of things they no longer are able to do (thus “mocking them”). While YOUR beliefs do not make this important distinction regarding the state of the dead, the ancient Jews AND the ancient Christians DID make distinctions about what the dead can and cannot do.


This respect for and respectful actions toward the cognizant spirits of the dead is both manifest and explained in other examples. For example the Talmud relates that the sons of a dead Rabbi (R. Hiyya) went out to cultivate their property, and they began to forget their learning.

“They tried very hard to recall it. Said one to the other: Does our father know of our trouble? How should he know, replied the other, seeing that it is written, His sons come to honour and he knoweth it not? Said the other to him: But does he not know? Is it not written: But his flesh grieveth for him, and his soul mourneth over him? And R. Isaac said [commenting on this]: The worm is as painful to the dead as a needle in the flesh of the living? [He replied]: It is explained that they know their own pain, they do not know the pain of others. Is that so?

The gist and purpose of such stories in the Talmudic literature is NOT to establish the doctrine that the dead are cognizant and communicative or that they have knowledge, this is clear. Rather, such teachings seek to clarify WHAT knowledge the dead actually have. Can they visit and know of our troubles? Can they see how their inheritance is being used? Do they know if we as their children are keeping the torah? Etc.

As another example from the Talmud involves a righteous farmer who heard a conversation between two spirits who had died. The story is as follows :


Has it not been taught: It is related that a certain pious man gave a denar to a poor man on the eve of New Year in a year of drought, and his wife scolded him, and he went and passed the night in the cemetery, and he heard two spirits conversing with one another. Said one to her companion: My dear, come and let us wander about the world and let us hear from behind the curtain10 what suffering is coming on the world.11 Said her companion to her: I am not able, because I am buried in a matting of reeds.12 But do you go, and whatever you hear tell me. So the other went and wandered about and returned. Said her companion to her: My dear, what have you heard from behind the curtain? She replied: I heard that whoever sows after the first rainfall13 will have his crop smitten by hail. So the man went and did not sow till after the second rainfall,14 with the result that everyone else's crop was smitten and his was not smitten.15 The next year he again went and passed the night in the cemetery, and heard the two spirits conversing with one another. Said one to her companion: Come and let us wander about the world and hear from behind the curtain what punishment is coming upon the world. Said the other to her: My dear, did I not tell you that I am not able because I am buried in a matting of reeds? But do you go, and whatever you hear, come and tell me. So the other one went and wandered about the world and returned. She said to her: My dear, what have you heard from behind the curtain? She replied: I heard that whoever sows after the later rain will have his crop smitten with blight. So the man went and sowed after the first rain with the result that everyone else's crop was blighted and his was not blighted.16 Said his wife to him: How is it that last year everyone else's crop was smitten and yours was not smitten, and this year everyone else's crop is blighted and yours is not blighted? So he related to her all his experiences. The story goes that shortly afterwards a quarrel broke out between the wife of that pious man and the mother of the child,17 and the former said to the latter, Come and I will show you your daughter buried in a matting of reeds. The next year the man again went and spent the night in the cemetery and heard those conversing together. One said: My dear, come and let us wander about the world and hear from behind the curtain what suffering is coming upon the world. Said the other: My dear, leave me alone; our conversation has already been heard among the living. This would prove that they know? — Perhaps some other man after his decease went and told them.

The anecdote is meant to elucidate the concept that spirits are alive in that they are cognizant and communicate and, though they do not know about their children and their jobs and the typical things of the world (the Εις τον αιωνα εν παντα τω πποιημενω υπο τον ηλιον which your defective quote somehow leaves out of verse six). The final comment, that perhaps the dead discovered what the man knew was probably because a person living had died and then told the dead what he knew.

The historical point is not that the ancient Jewish or the ancient Christian doctrines and worldview are either more or less correct than yours, but that they are different than your doctrines and your interpretations. While I make no claim that the early Christian doctrines are more or less correct than your belief system, I do think that they are more rational and logical than the doctrine and theories found in modern Christian movements.


To make this point that the ancient Jews DID believe in an afterlife of cognizant and communicative spirits, let me give another example from the Talmud. It involves a man Samuel whose father died while in the possession of money for orphans. Samuel is blamed as a thief. Samuel the tries to contact his father to find out where the money is, to try to return it and when communicating with the dead father, finds out more than he wanted to know. The Talmudic story is as follows:

Come and hear: The father of Samuel had some money belonging to orphans deposited with him. When he died, Samuel was not with him, and they called him, 'The son who consumes the money of orphans'. So he went after his father to the cemetery, and said to them [the dead]. ...I Want Abba b. Abba the father of Samuel; where is he? They replied: He has gone up to the Academy of the Sky.24 Meanwhile he saw Levi sitting outside.25 He said to him: Why are you sitting outside? Why have you not gone up [to heaven]? He replied: Because they said to me: For as many years as you did not go up to the academy of R. Efes and hurt his feelings,26 we will not let you go up to the Academy of the Sky. Meanwhile his father came. Samuel observed that he was both weeping and laughing. He said to him: Why are you weeping? He replied: Because you are coming here soon. And why are you laughing? Because you are highly esteemed in this world. He thereupon said to him: If I am esteemed, let them take up Levi; and they did take up Levi. He then said to him: Where is the money of the orphans? He replied: Go and you will find it in the case of the millstones. The money at the top and the bottom is mine, that in the middle is the orphans' He said to him: Why did you do like that? He replied: So that if thieves came, they should take mine, and if the earth destroyed any, it should destroy mine.


The next Talmudic sentence is : “Does not this show that they know?”

The very purpose of the anecdote is to demonstrate that there ARE certain things that the dead know.

POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS
 
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Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
POST TWO OF TWO

It is in tractate Berakoth that R. Samuel b. Nahmani said in the name of R. Jonathan: “Whence do we know that the dead converse with one another? Because it says: And the Lord said unto him: This is the land which I swore unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, saying.28 What is the meaning of 'saying'?29 The Holy One, blessed be He, said to Moses: Say to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob: The oath which I swore to you I have already carried out for your descendants.


The discussion continues “Now if you maintain that the dead do not know, what would be the use of his telling them? … — So that they might be grateful to Moses?


R. Isaac said: If one makes remarks about the dead, it is like making remarks about a stone. Some say [the reason is that] they do not know, others that they know but do not care.



In all cases, the ancient Jewish AND ancient Christian literature make very clear that in their belief system, the spirits of the dead are living in that they retain their prior knowledge, they are cognizant and they communicate with each other.


Their religions were not the same as your religion. Their interpretations of their sacred texts were not the same as your interpretations. They were different. If you cannot allow them to have different beliefs than yours, then you will never get very far in the study of historical religion.


In any case, I hope the point is made, the ancient Jews DID believe in an afterlife.


I hope your journeys are good and wonderful @dybmh and @Deeje and that the insights you gain are helpful to you.


Clear
ακεισεω
 
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URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
@URAVIP2ME , The verse I was thinking of was 2 Samuel 14:14... However, this is not "clearly" indicating an afterlife. Nor does it contradict what you said. And for that matter, it doesn't contradict what @Deeje and @Clear have said. I am providing it here because this verse does seem to allude to the possibility that there is a path of spiritual return even after "banishment".......

In Scripture, I find only those who commit the unforgivable sin of Matthew 12:32 can Not return.....
We are Not the judge of that, that is in God's hands.
There is a ' final judging ' coming on Earth as per Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.
Those whom Jesus judges as humble 'sheep'-like ones can remain alive on Earth right through the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14,9.
They will be alive on Earth to see calendar Day One of Jesus' 1,000-yaer governmental rule over Earth.
As far as those judged as wicked ones they will be ' destroyed forever ' as per Psalms 92:7
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
In Scripture, I find only those who commit the unforgivable sin of Matthew 12:32 can Not return.....
We are Not the judge of that, that is in God's hands.
There is a ' final judging ' coming on Earth as per Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.
Those whom Jesus judges as humble 'sheep'-like ones can remain alive on Earth right through the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14,9.
They will be alive on Earth to see calendar Day One of Jesus' 1,000-yaer governmental rule over Earth.
As far as those judged as wicked ones they will be ' destroyed forever ' as per Psalms 92:7
Thank you, this is very helpful. I appreciate it very much.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member

In any case, I hope the point is made, the ancient Jews DID believe in an afterlife........ακεισεω

The ancient Jews were in pagan Babylonian captivity for 70 years.
Unfaithful ancient Jews would have picked up Babylonian ideas.
When Jews mixed with Greeks they also drew away from Scripture.
Ancient Christian writings would be the 1st-century writings of Christ as found in Scripture.
Jesus and the OT both teach ' sleep ' in death - Even King David did Not ascend - Acts of the Apostles 2:34
( John 11:11-14; Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5 )
Afterlife teaches being more alive after death than before death.
Whereas, Scripture teaches resurrection - Revelation 1:18
Future resurrection as the 'future tense' is used that there 'is going to be' a resurrection... - Acts of the Apostles 24:15.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
it was a test.....but not of obedience
Man needs to be that creature curious....even if death is pending
Eve went first
Adam followed
they passed
the garden had served it's purpose
the alteration of Man's body and spirit
they were released into the environment
and the garden dismantled
to the couple this would appear to be a punishment
it was not
Yes, the Garden was dismantled, (a garden of weeden) so to speak, and No longer in existence in ancient Israel.
Outside of the garden mankind No longer had access to the Garden's ' tree of life '.
However, the Garden will be ' mantled ' ( meaning mankind will see the return of the Garden - Revelation 22:2 )
Under Christ's millennium-long day of governing over Earth mankind will see the return of the Genesis 'tree of life'
This is why we are all invited to pray the invitation of Revelation 22:20 for Jesus to come!
Come and bring the ' healing ' benefits to earth's nations when mankind will again see the return of the ' tree of life '
Earth will become a paradisical Earth as described at Isaiah 35th chapter.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, don't dey know dat?
I do know who is being addressed in the chapter found at 1 Corinthians 15:1 ( Jesus' brothers )
They are like the ' brothers' of Matthew 25:40, Not the ' sheep ' of Matthew 25:37.
So, the ' brothers ' of 1 Corinthians 15:50 are part of those who will Not sleep in death when Jesus comes because they are first fruits - 1 Corinthians 15:20; 1 Corinthians 15:23 - meaning they have that first or earlier resurrection of Revelation 20:6.
They will reign with Christ for a thousand years in Heaven over Earth, or over earthly subjects of God's kingdom.
Jesus will have earthly subjects or citizens according to Psalms 72:8; Psalms 72:12-14.
They are the humble meek people who inherit the Earth as promised at Matthew 5:5; Psalms 37:9-11.
So, those called to Heaven (like those of Luke 22:28-30) will have a resurrection in a spirit body.
The majority of mankind (John 3:13) will have a happy-and-healthy physical resurrection.
That will take place during Jesus' coming 1,000-year reign over Earth, or over earthly subjects of God's kingdom government. This is why Acts of the Apostles 24:15 uses the 'future tense' that there 'is going to be' a resurrection...
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
@URAVIP2ME , The verse I was thinking of was 2 Sam 14:14... However, this is not "clearly" indicating an afterlife. Nor does it contradict what you said. And for that matter, it doesn't contradict what @Deeje and @Clear have said. I am providing it here because this verse does seem to allude to the possibility that there is a path of spiritual return even after "banishment"

View attachment 29766

hyperlink >>> - sefaria.org - II Samuel 14:14

Context is everything when quoting scripture.
Do you know the context of the verse you quoted?

Please read ch 13 and 14 for the background to this story and come back to me with what you think that one verse is saying......

With God, there is always a way back to him because he evaluates the actions of every person based on the circumstances at the time. He forgives any who are genuinely repentant. But in this instance, King David was shown to be in error concerning his son Absalom. If David had acted according to God's law in the first place, then his firstborn Am'non would have been dealt with for raping his sister. (2 Samuel 13:21) Absalom would not then have taken the action he did in putting the rapist to death. But he allowed his anger to fester for years until it became a pre-meditated murder. There are no winners in this scenario. When a person fails to do what God says they should, trouble always follows. David always seemed to learn his lessons the hard way. e.g. with Bathsheba. Yet God's forgiveness came when David repented of his adultery and the murder of Bathsheba's husband....both crimes carried the death penalty, but God knew that David was weak, not wicked. The prophet Nathan had previously told David a story in order for him to condemn his actions out of his own mouth in a similar fashion to this instance. (2 Samuel ch 11) These records show that Jehovah's ways are always right.....but sometimes we need to learn them the hard way.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Yes, the Garden was dismantled, (a garden of weeden) so to speak, and No longer in existence in ancient Israel.
Outside of the garden mankind No longer had access to the Garden's ' tree of life '.
However, the Garden will be ' mantled ' ( meaning mankind will see the return of the Garden - Revelation 22:2 )
Under Christ's millennium-long day of governing over Earth mankind will see the return of the Genesis 'tree of life'
This is why we are all invited to pray the invitation of Revelation 22:20 for Jesus to come!
Come and bring the ' healing ' benefits to earth's nations when mankind will again see the return of the ' tree of life '
Earth will become a paradisical Earth as described at Isaiah 35th chapter.

Wasn't Isaiah 35 talking about the return from the Babylonian exile?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
@Deeje said : "Taking scripture as coming from God, rather than from those of his errant nation, I can see quite clearly that the Bible promotes NO belief in an afterlife."


Deeje, with all respect, the hundreds of competing Christian movements ALL tend to see their competing and incompatible positions "quite clearly”. We all create and adopt belief systems but we all do so having some biases and the theories we make often have errors in them. If you are ever going to learn to think historically, you will have to allow the people who wrote the scriptures to have their own opinions about what the scriptures meant TO THEM given THEIR interpretations. This does not mean they did not have their own errors, merely that the ancient Christians had different beliefs and interpreted their scriptures differently than you interpret yours.

And with equal respect, I can see that you are again quoting those whom Jesus rejected as teachers of God's word. If you can't use the Bible to back up what you believe, then you are relying on the words of those whom Jesus identified as the worst of teachers....from their "father the devil". (John 8:44) Remember that the Jews had over 400 years to thoroughly corrupt God's worship. This was before Jesus even came to the earth.

Read Matthew 23 and see how Jesus with very strong wording condemned those teachers.

After castigating them for their self righteous failure to fulfill their role in God's nation, he summed up by saying....

Serpents, offspring of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of Ge·henʹna? 34 For this reason, I am sending to you prophets and wise men and public instructors. Some of them you will kill and execute on stakes, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 so that there may come upon you all the righteous blood spilled on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zech·a·riʹah son of Bar·a·chiʹah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her—how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it. 38 Look! Your house is abandoned to you. 39 For I say to you, you will by no means see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name!’” (Matthew 23:33-39)


These are the people you quote.....so no thanks. If Jesus rejected their teachings then so will I.

If you will not read what the ancient Jews and the ancient Christians say they believed in their own words using their own description then the very narrow stream of data you are using will not allow you to have a credible opinion and you will be even more dependent upon personal bias in any conclusions.

Beliefs are just that.....we are all free to follow our own hearts and that is as it should be. A heart determined to believe a lie will be allowed to do just that. (2 Thessalonian 2:9-12) We choose our own destiny by what we accept as truth. Jesus said we would "know the truth" and that it would "set us free". That is freedom from false religious beliefs and practices.

But please remember that God will not correct us if we have chosen badly.....he has provided us with all we need to make our decisions. Its all about who we accept as our teachers....we all have them.

Jesus promised that he would appoint a "faithful and discreet slave" to feed his household their (spiritual) "food at the proper time". (Matthew 24:45) We all need this spiritual food but according to the Apostle Paul, there are two tables each loaded with food that looks appetizing.....the trouble is only one table is provided by God, and the other has demons who serve up poisoned junk food. (1 Corinthians 10:21)

Because, as Jesus said..."no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” we all need to investigate what we believe and why we believe it. If God is granting us the knowledge we need to become acceptable worshippers, then who is drawing those who believe the lies? Jesus will sort the sheep from the goats....BUT who are among the goats? Jesus gives us the answer in Matthew 7:21-23.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Yes, the Garden was dismantled, (a garden of weeden) so to speak, and No longer in existence in ancient Israel.
Outside of the garden mankind No longer had access to the Garden's ' tree of life '.
However, the Garden will be ' mantled ' ( meaning mankind will see the return of the Garden - Revelation 22:2 )
Under Christ's millennium-long day of governing over Earth mankind will see the return of the Genesis 'tree of life'
This is why we are all invited to pray the invitation of Revelation 22:20 for Jesus to come!
Come and bring the ' healing ' benefits to earth's nations when mankind will again see the return of the ' tree of life '
Earth will become a paradisical Earth as described at Isaiah 35th chapter.
I suspect.....
the restoration of the garden will be in the spiritual form
after the last breath
 

sooda

Veteran Member
And with equal respect, I can see that you are again quoting those whom Jesus rejected as teachers of God's word. If you can't use the Bible to back up what you believe, then you are relying on the words of those whom Jesus identified as the worst of teachers....from their "father the devil". (John 8:44) Remember that the Jews had over 400 years to thoroughly corrupt God's worship. This was before Jesus even came to the earth.

Read Matthew 23 and see how Jesus with very strong wording condemned those teachers.

After castigating them for their self righteous failure to fulfill their role in God's nation, he summed up by saying....

Serpents, offspring of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of Ge·henʹna? 34 For this reason, I am sending to you prophets and wise men and public instructors. Some of them you will kill and execute on stakes, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 so that there may come upon you all the righteous blood spilled on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zech·a·riʹah son of Bar·a·chiʹah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her—how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it. 38 Look! Your house is abandoned to you. 39 For I say to you, you will by no means see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name!’” (Matthew 23:33-39)


These are the people you quote.....so no thanks. If Jesus rejected their teachings then so will I.



Beliefs are just that.....we are all free to follow our own hearts and that is as it should be. A heart determined to believe a lie will be allowed to do just that. (2 Thessalonian 2:9-12) We choose our own destiny by what we accept as truth. Jesus said we would "know the truth" and that it would "set us free". That is freedom from false religious beliefs and practices.

But please remember that God will not correct us if we have chosen badly.....he has provided us with all we need to make our decisions. Its all about who we accept as our teachers....we all have them.

Jesus promised that he would appoint a "faithful and discreet slave" to feed his household their (spiritual) "food at the proper time". (Matthew 24:45) We all need this spiritual food but according to the Apostle Paul, there are two tables each loaded with food that looks appetizing.....the trouble is only one table is provided by God, and the other has demons who serve up poisoned junk food. (1 Corinthians 10:21)

Because, as Jesus said..."no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” we all need to investigate what we believe and why we believe it. If God is granting us the knowledge we need to become acceptable worshippers, then who is drawing those who believe the lies? Jesus will sort the sheep from the goats....BUT who are among the goats? Jesus gives us the answer in Matthew 7:21-23.
Jesus wasn't talking about all of them. Haven't you studied the politics of the first century?
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
and the devil in the garden.....called a serpent....

I don't think of that as a statement of form

I think of it as a description of character

he likely had a more angelic appearance
 
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