1( REGARDING "HISTORICAL WRITING" AND WHO WILL READ IT IN THE FUTURE
Deeje asked : “What does it matter what other forum members think?” Post #141
It may sound obvious, but since we are writing each other in a public forum, AND the forum is “historical” to the extent that individuals will continue reading these forums for some time, then it IS quite important to me that individuals who read our entries understand them and, hopefully, gain insights to them that are helpful to those individuals both now and in the future. (I can’t help but think historically…)
Secondly, I do not expect that I am going to change your mind regarding early theology and history. I DO think there are individuals who are seeking good and accurate information regarding what early Christianity was like, what their doctrines and worldviews were like and how the earliest Christianity was different than the multitude of later competing Christian movements.
2( REGARDING THE CLAIM THAT ALL ANCIENT WRITING THAT DISAGREES WITH MODERN JEHOVAHS WITNESS THEOLOGY IS FROM APOSTATES
Apostate sources again.....quoting passages that speak about literal sleep is meaningless. The dead do not dream....the dead do not think.....there is no conscious existence for those in the grave
While ancient Christianity is heretical to Jehovahs Witnesses, Jehovah witness religion is heretical to Ancient Christians
The claim to apostasy that you keep using is a two way street. While the early Jews and Christianity that agreed with them on the subject of spirits seem apostate to you, YOUR religion which was created in the 1800s would be viewed by the early christians as apostate since your religion is NOT the same as theirs. The early Christians who lived in the first centuries and nearer the days of the Apostles had just as much of a right to their beliefs and interpretations as you do to your that your religion created and adopted.
For example : The early Christians would be
aghast that Jehovah Witnesses created an inaccurate paraphrase of their Old and New Testament texts in order to have a text more friendly to their new theoloy. To the Christians, their texts were sacred. To the early Christians (And to much of modern christianity as well), the Jehovahs Witnesses are part OF apostasy from true early Christian religion.
While I think that Jehovahs Witness theology is wonderfully "systemized", yet this IS one of the characteristics of apostate religion that would arise in a day when individuals “… being tossed and carried about by every wind of the teaching in the sleight of men
, in [their] craftiness in the systematizing of error; “ Eph IV:14 “…εν τη κυβεια των ανθρωπων
, εν πανουργια προς την μεθοδειαν της πλανης,”
While the references I pointed out are from a Christianity that is much more ancient and much more authentic than the 200 year old Jehovahs Witness system of interpretation of scriptures. It is the ancients who describe
your theology as apostate. The New and modern Jehovahs Witness religion abandoned the earlier and more authentic beliefs and, instead of recognizing themselves as apostates, now charge the earlier, more authentic Christianity with apostasy. It is an inversion of values.
I think Sooda was being fair when he pointed out that the Jehovahs Witnesses have made enough mistakes regarding their prophecies and interpretations about the end of the system of things being 1914, that they would admit that they are wrong about things.
If we discuss the spirit, the reason I want you to use the New World Translation, which is the New Bible the Jehovahs Witnesses produced, is so that we can also discuss the changes made to the text. IF the Jehovahs witnesses valued the scriptural text MORE than their doctrines, then they would have left the sacred text alone instead of making changes that are inaccurate and unwarranted in scripture. It is these sorts of bothersome issues with text that make it seem less credible to have Jehovahs Witnesses claim something "doesn't represent Scriptural thought" when they themselves change scripture for the benefit of their theology.
3( ARE YOU THEORIZING THAT ONLY CHRISTIAN HERETICS WROTE? IF NOT, WHERE IS THE EARLY TEXT SUPPORTING JEHOVAHS WITNESS THEOLOGY?
IF you theorize that ALL early Judeo-Christian theology is heretical, even those individuals taught by the apostles, then where is your supporting historical data for this theory?
IF you theorize that ONLY Christian heretics wrote their heretical texts, then why did not the orthodox Christians write any texts?
IF the orthodox wrote texts that agree with your theology on this subject, then why have they not been discovered? Why ONLY heretical texts discovered?
IF the orthodox wrote, and they HAVE been discovered, and they DO agree with you, then where are they?
So please, don't tell me that the early Christians are all apostates or heretics and your religion is not. Are you telling us that NONE of the early Christians BESIDES heretics wrote their testimony regarding their doctrines and regarding Jesus as the savior? IF non-apostate christians wrote then where is their writing that supports YOUR religion?
The elephant in the room is that your religion with it's interpretations is not historical. It is systemitized the use of scriptures (As the apostle Paul Told us would happen) it gathers some followers who are dedicated, but they cannot find their place in any authentic historical Christian space. Instead, they MUST remain outside of authentic Historical Christianity because their interpretation (systemization) of the sacred texts is not to be found to any significant degree inside any historical Christian textual records.
Deeje, I want you to know that I am sorry and do apologize for attributing your deceptive view of history to an intent to deceive. I realize that we live in two different worlds and some things are so simple and obvious historically, that I do not understand why other do not see it. I move and breath in a world of people who are familiar with early Judeo-Christian thought and though there are disagreements, the disagreements take place in a milieu of data exchange, rather than a disparagement of early Judeo-Christian texts.
I honestly do not mind discussing the early Christian view of spirits with you, but you must understand that the earliest and most authentic Christian interpretations would view Jehovah Witness interpretations as part of an apostasy and would view this sort of doctrine with as much distaste as you view early Christianity. Your religion and theirs is NOT the same.
In any case, I hope your journey is good.
Clear
Hi @
HockeyCowboy.
4) REGARDING EARLY TEXTS AND THEIR RELATIONSHIP TO THE VARIOUS MODERN SCRIPTURAL CANONS
While I very much agree with Deejes’ dates regarding when the Jews committed the oral law to text, the oral traditions existed much earlier. For example, Though Jewish Enoch was not committed to text until perhaps
300 B.C. (BEFORE Christ), the Jews and Christians were reading it and it reflects Judeo-Christian thought long before the New Testament was written.
I do not expect you to be aware of the early texts and their relationship to biblical themes, but when you are reading the New Testament, you are reading quotes from these texts that you say don’t represent “scriptural thought”.
For example, When New Testament
Jude (First to Second century A.D. AFTER CHRIST) writes, "
...Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (jude 1:14 NIV)
The writer of Jude is quoting
1 Enoch 2:1 (approx. 3rd century BEFORE CHRIST. – 300-400 years earlier ) “Behold, he comes with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon them, and destroy the wicked, and reprove all the carnal for everything which the sinful and ungodly have done, and committed against him.”
When you read the New Testament, you are often reading quotes and references to these earlier texts,
you just never knew it. The assumption that these texts have no relationship to the New Testament text is, historically, naïve.
There are BOOKS dedicated to the cross-referencing of the Jewish and Christian (and Islamic) literature to New Testament quotes. The world of historical religion is different than your world. It is only natural that some of the early themes in Christianity will seem strange to you since your religion is NOT the same as ancient Christianity. Remember, Jehovahs witness as a movement and many of their interpretations are no older than the 18th century while early Christian themes go back thousands of years.
5) REGARDING HOCKEY COWBOYS THEORY THAT AN "IMMEDIATE AFTERLIFE" STARTED WITH CHILD SACRIFICE
Hockey Cowboy claimed : "You can see how an "immediate afterlife" would get it's start, be promoted, w/ child sacrifice..."
I have to point out that this is an incredibly strange theory that I've never seen in ANY literature. I would think I am more familiar with more of the ancient literature than most people and I have NEVER heard of this theory. How do Jehovahs Witnesses support this theory?
In any case, I wish you good journey
Clear
ειδρτζφιω