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Featured Question about jesus

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by Frank Goad, Dec 23, 2018.

  1. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    ...and thank you for your reply.
    Seems to me it was the resurrected (Not dead) Jesus who visited those spirits as per 1 Peter 3:18
    Alive in the spirit (resurrected), then resurrected Jesus preached to the spirits (fallen angels) as per 1 Peter 3:19.
    Those spirit creation or fallen angels of Noah's day as per 2 Peter 2:4-5 who are in prisoned in tartarus.- Jude1:6
    By appearing to them then they knew Jesus died a faithful death and ' second death ' (destruction) awaits them.
     
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  2. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Yes, I understand that's the JW belief. I believe this visit took place during the three day period of time between Christ's death and His resurrection. Of course, I don't believe that Jesus' spirit was ever "dead." When we speak of either Him or anyone else as being "dead," we are referring to the physical body, which is only alive when inhabited by a spirit. Just one of those things upon which I suspect we're going to have to agree to disagree.
     
  3. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
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    That's a fantastic question. I think people who enter into those sorts of "Bible studies", have already forbidden themselves from asking questions that might put them at risk in the group. They've gone in convinced to believe what they're taught, because group belonging is more important than the integrity of truth. It's a choice to be indoctrinated for the sake of security.

    So they really are more indoctrination sessions, rather than Bible studies. And participation in this like getting a tattoo. They mark their brains with the over-simplistic views on highly complex issues, making life "easier", like back in the day when things were "simple", like when we were 6 and all the rules were clearly defined for us, and things just worked because mom and dad were good people.

    So drinking from that ritual cup, the initiation in indoctrination, is like finding those simple days again, where you weren't asked to think too much, and life had simple, clear black and white answers.
     
  4. Rough Beast Sloucher

    Rough Beast Sloucher Well-Known Member
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    There is nothing in Ecclesiastes that hints that there is anything for man other than what there is under the sun. Vanity of vanities, all is vanity.

    On the contrary I did highlight the important points. But let us revisit Job 14.

    Job 14
    7 “For there is hope for a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that its shoots will not cease.
    8 Though its root grow old in the earth, and its stump die in the soil,
    9 yet at the scent of water it will bud and put out branches like a young plant.
    10 But a man dies and is laid low; man breathes his last, and where is he?
    11 As waters fail from a lake and a river wastes away and dries up,
    12 so a man lies down and rises not again; till the heavens are no more he will not awake or be roused out of his sleep.

    13 Oh that you would hide me in Sheol, that you would conceal me until your wrath be past, that you would appoint me a set time, and remember me!
    14 If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my service I would wait, till my renewal should come.
    15 You would call, and I would answer you; you would long for the work of your hands.
    16 For then you would number my steps; you would not keep watch over my sin;
    17 my transgression would be sealed up in a bag, and you would cover over my iniquity.
    18 “But the mountain falls and crumbles away, and the rock is removed from its place;
    19 the waters wear away the stones; the torrents wash away the soil of the earth; so you destroy the hope of man.
    20 You prevail forever against him, and he passes; you change his countenance, and send him away.

    Verses 7-9 say how a tree that is cut down might sprout anew.

    But verses 10-12 contrast the fate of man to that. A man “lies down and rises not again; till the heavens are no more he will not awake or be roused out of his sleep”. There is no revival for a man as for a tree.

    Verses 13-17 express a desire for resurrection, but as a hypothetical: ‘would’ not ‘will’

    Verses 18-20 again contrast that to the actuality. God destroys the hope of man. God prevails forever against man. The desired resurrection is not going to happen and Job realizes it.


    Luke refers directly to 1 Enoch.

    Luke 16
    19 “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house— 28 for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”

    Compare to 1 Enoch

    1 Enoch 22
    9 At that time therefore I inquired respecting him, and respecting the general judgment, saying, Why is one separated from another? He answered, Three separations have been made between the spirits of the dead, and thus have the spirits of the righteous been separated.
    10 Namely, by a chasm, by water, and by light above it.
    11 And in the same way likewise are sinners separated when they die, and are buried in the earth; judgment not overtaking them in their lifetime.
    12 Here their souls are separated. Moreover, abundant is their suffering until the time of the great judgment, the castigation, and the torment of those who eternally execrate, whose souls are punished and bound there for ever.
    13 And thus has it been from the beginning of the world. Thus has there existed a separation between the souls of those who utter complaints, and of those who watch for their destruction, to slaughter them in the day of sinners.
    14 A receptacle of this sort has been formed for the souls of unrighteous men, and of sinners; of those who have completed crime, and associated with the impious, whom they resemble. Their souls shall not be annihilated in the day of judgment, neither shall they arise from this place.
    Book of Enoch

    Luke and Enoch have reward and punishment immediately after death, with the sinful dead conscious and suffering. Luke and Enoch have a chasm separating the sinners from the righteous. This is a recognizable reference to Enoch.

    All the other parables concern things that the hearers were familiar with. No point in having a parable if it is not going to be readily understood. A parable about sowing seeds or growing fig trees of lost sheep or having enough oil for lamps will easily be understood., being subjects the hearers would be familiar. It must be presumed that the ideas from 1 Enoch of reward and punishment immediately after death were familiar to those hearing the story of Lazarus and the rich man.

    Some of those overhearing Jesus were Pharisees and the story seems aimed directly at them and their lack of charity. If they were not familiar with the ideas from Enoch the story would be crazy and irrelevant to them. But being learned men, why would they not be familiar with it? The phrase ‘the Law and the Prophets’ appears several times in the Gospels, referring to the Torah and the Nevi’im sections of the Jewish scriptures. The only solid reference to the idea of resurrection in the OT is in Daniel. Yet Daniel was part of the Ketuvim, the Writings, which did not appear in canonical form until the 2nd century CE. The Writings (including Psalms and other works as well as Daniel) were well known at the time of Jesus and the Gospels quote from them. Pharisees believed strongly in resurrection. It seems likely that they would be familiar with 1 Enoch. After all Luke was.

    But what about the disciples that Jesus was speaking to? Presumably they were familiar with the ideas from Enoch, otherwise the story would make no sense to them either. We might note here that Jude very definitely read Enoch since he not only quotes from it but does so by name.

    Luke has Jesus definitely siding with the punishment after death idea.

    And BTW where do you think Matthew got the image of “the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels”? (Matthew 25:41) That also appears in the Book of the Watchers, the early (3rd century BCE) portion of 1 Enoch.
     
  5. Rough Beast Sloucher

    Rough Beast Sloucher Well-Known Member
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    In the quote from 1 Enoch above you will see that the sinners have three possible fates. At the time of the judgment they may be released from their torment, or they may continue in it forever or they may be annihilated. Rabbinic discussions in the Talmud discuss these possibilities and variations on them. This shows that the ideas in Enoch were known and taken seriously at some earlier time or it would not be discussed. It is therefore entirely reasonable for the Pharisees in the story in Luke 16 to be aware of Enoch and get the point Jesus was making about them.

    1 Enoch was not the only place that eternal punishment for sinners was put forward. The Book of Judith was part of the Septuagint, the primary source of scriptural quotes for the writers of the NT. It was an unquestioned part of the canonical OT until the 16th century and still remains in the Catholic Bible, both Roman and Orthodox, who represent most of Christianity.

    Judith 16
    17 Woe to the nations that rise up against my kindred the Lord Almighty will take vengeance of them in the day of judgment, in putting fire and worms in their flesh; and they shall feel them, and weep for ever.
    The Apocrypha: Judith: Judith Chapter 16

    Conscious eternal punishment for the enemies of God.

    Even in the NT, eternal conscious punishment is made explicit.

    Revelation 14
    9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

    It is also explicit in another form, the much quoted but misunderstand ‘second death’ passage.

    Revelation 20
    14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

    Revelation is chock full of references to other scriptures. Is there a prior reference to the ‘second death’? Yes, there is.

    There are no canonical sources that use the term but there are non-canonical ones that do, specifically several of the Targums. The Targums were translations of the Jewish scriptures from Hebrew to Aramaic. They were intended for reading to those Jews in the Palestine region who did not know Hebrew, Aramaic being the language of the common people in that area. Targums often added to the original text by way of explanation. The Targums were written in the 1st century BCE

    All of the Targums that use the phrase ‘the second death’ associate it with punishment of sinners, usually in the context of the day of judgment. However, it is only explained in any detail in Targum Isaiah.

    Targum Isaiah

    22:14 “your iniquity shall not be forgiven till you die the second death”

    65:6 “I will recompense unto them the wages for their sins, and deliver their bodies to the second death”

    66:24 “And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men, the sinners who have rebelled against my Word: for their souls shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched; and the wicked shall be judged in hell ((Gehenna))

    JCR - Targum Jonathan Ben Uziel on Isaiah

    This is a straightforward reference to eternal punishment by fire. The souls of sinners “shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched” This is what John of Patmos meant to be understood by ‘the second death’, eternal punishment by fire.

    Your ‘deathbed conversion’ aversion does not work here. The man is dying, so it is irrelevant when the reward is to be given. The repentance is accepted and paradise is promised. The idea of putting the comma before ‘today’ or after is unrelated to the value of ‘deathbed conversion’.

    I have shown that when Luke wrote in the form described that the adverb ‘today’ applied to the verb following ‘today’ and not to a preceding verb. The ‘today’ refers to being in paradise, not to when Jesus was speaking which was obviously ‘today’. It was a way of underlining the importance of his point.

    As previously discussed in the early part of this thread, Jesus commends his spirit to God. Why should he not be in paradise for a while? The descent to the dead, not fleshed out very much in canonical scripture, appears to involve Jesus leading the righteous out of Hades (the generic place of the dead) into paradise. Assuming that Jesus was effectively non-existent between the crucifixion and the resurrection is just that an assumption of soul sleep. If you want to rely on OT scripture to prove that point you must accept that there is no resurrection, as Job bemoans.

    The Gospel of Luke has Jesus ascend into heaven the same day as the resurrection. Then along comes Acts that says Jesus stayed around for 40 days. All three Synoptic Gospels say that the Son of Man will appear while some of the people hearing him speak will still be alive and reiterate that by saying that the generation alive when Jesus is talking to his disciples will not all be dead when that happens. Then Acts comes along and has angels say don’t bother waiting for Jesus to come back, there is work to do. And the Son of Man coming back to judge the world gets morphed into the Holy Spirit descending on the disciples.

    Acts is all about patching up problems with earlier works, like changing Paul’s claim of private revelations from Jesus that are not in line with what Jesus told the Apostles into Paul being dramatically converted into an already existing religion that just happened to be … Pauline! Or changing Paul from urging Jews to abandon the Law into a Law-abiding Jew. Or accounting for Peter observing kosher when other Jews are around into Peter getting a vision from God that kosher is kaput. Which supposedly happens years before Peter still observes kosher law.

    Not that the Gospels are terribly consistent with each other on important matters. But that is another story.
     
  6. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Indeed, Solomon could not see how God's purpose would change what till then, had always been. He could not see how it was no more beneficial to be human than an animal if death was the end of it all. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)

    He worked hard and had so much to show for his life and wealth, but it seemed to be a wasted effort if he was only going to die and someone else would enjoy the fruits of his labors. (Ecclesiastes 2:14-19)

    Job spoke about the resurrection. Did he really contradict himself in that passage of scripture? "Sleeping in death" is what Jews believed....where did Jesus say Lazarus was before he resurrected him? (John 11:11-14)

    Yes, death is a permanent state in this world...but in the world to come, Jesus promised to resurrect "both the righteous and the unrighteous"...he calls them out of the same place....their graves. (John 5:28-29; 2 Peter 3:13)

    It helps to understand what state Job was in when making those statements. His ten children were gone in one awful blow, and he knew that he would not see them again. He had lost all his material wealth, and now his own life was threatened and he knew he could die too. As if that wasn't bad enough, the most righteous man alive was accused of bringing this whole calamity on himself by some kind of wrong conduct that he knew he had not committed.

    At that time Job was unaware of the conversation between God and his adversary. It appeared as if God was the one bringing the calamity on Job, But then we also have Paul's words about those faithful ones who served God in the pre-Christian era.....he said...
    "In faith all of these died, although they did not receive the fulfillment of the promises; but they saw them from a distance and welcomed them and publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land.. . . .Women received their dead by resurrection, but other men were tortured because they would not accept release by some ransom, in order that they might attain a better resurrection." (Hebrews 11:13; 35)
     
    #26 Deeje, Dec 25, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2018
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  7. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    This is how the Book of Enoch 22:9-11 reads from this version.....

    9 And he answered me, and said to me: “These three places where made, in order that they might separate the spirits of the dead. And thus the souls of the righteous have been separated; this is the spring of water, and on it the light.
    (Revelation 14:13), (John 4:14), (John 7:38), (Revelation 22:1)

    10 Likewise, a place has been created for sinners, when they die, and are buried in the earth, and judgment has not come upon them during their life.
    (Exodus 23:7), (Ben Sira 9:11-12)

    11 And here their souls will be separated for this great torment, until the Great Day of Judgment and Punishment and Torment for those who curse, forever, and of vengeance on their souls. And there he will bind them forever. Verily, He is, from the beginning of the world.
    (Ben Sira 21:10), (Job 24:19-20), (Job 7:9-11), (Wisdom 16:14), (Job 14:11-13), (Psalm 17:13-15), (Daniel 12:2), (Matthew 25:46), (John 5:28-29), (Acts 24:15)

    12 And thus a place has been separated for the souls of those who complain, and give information about their destruction, about when they were killed, in the days of the sinners.

    13 Thus a place has been created, for the souls of men who are not righteous, but sinners, accomplished in wrongdoing, and with the wrongdoers will be their lot. But their souls will not be killed on the day of judgment, nor will they rise from here.”
    (Psalm 1:5-6), (Revelation 20:5), (Psalm 119:155), (Ben Sira 41:5-11), (Wisdom 1:16), (Wisdom 2:21-24), (Wisdom 3:10), (Wisdom 4:20), (Wisdom 5:13-14), (Job 8:11-14), (Job 27:7-10)

    14 Then I blessed the Lord of Glory, and said: “Blessed be my Lord, the Lord of Glory and Righteousness, who rules everything forever.”
    (1 Kings 8:32)


    The Book of Enoch. Chapter 22.

    I see no chasm in verse 10. No correlation to Luke in the rest....

    Ecclesiastes 9:5,6, 10 relates the condition of the dead in "sheol"......they are not conscious, they exhibit no emotions, they cannot plan and there is no activity.

    David reinforces this at Psalm 146:4...."Do not put your trust in princes, Nor in a son of man, who cannot bring salvation. 4 His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish."

    When you breathe your last breath, your brain cells are the first to die.....hence, no thought processes.
     
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  8. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Since Luke is quoting Jesus, and its a parable, the story is not to be taken literally. If it is, then a drop of water on someone's finger can cool a person's tongue in the flames of hell.....and do we really imagine that hell is within speaking distance to heaven? Do you realize that there is no heaven and hell scenario in the OT at all? Jesus never taught it because it was not in the Jewish scriptures.

    The book of Enoch is not recognized as part of the inspired word of God.

    Luke was not an apostle but he said he had accurately gathered all the information for his gospel from reliable sources. Since immortality of the soul was never a Jewish teaching originally, but adopted later because of Greek influence, Jesus would not teach that souls were tormented after death. There is nothing to torture. Where was Adam told that he would go when he died? Since he was responsible for the death of the entire human race, why didn't God tell him about hell? (Genesis 3:19)

    Just to be clear...I do not accept the Apocryphal books as part of scripture. It is useless quoting them or referring to them.

    There is no hell of eternal torment. There is no life for the wicked. That's what "gehenna" is....the lake of fire, where things like death and hades are disposed of...never to be seen again.

    Gehenna came to mean something other than how first century Jews understood Jesus' reference to it. There is no hell in the OT so Jesus was not sending the Pharisees to any place of conscious fiery torment. Gehenna was a reference to the Valley of Hinnom, outside the walls of Jerusalem, where the apostate Jews had sacrificed their children to a false god. (Jeremiah 7:31)

    God put a stop to it had the valley turned into the city's garbage dump where fires were kept burning day and night with the addition of brimstone (sulfur). Since Jews believed in the resurrection, not in an immortal soul, the Valley of Hinnom was the place where the bodies of executed criminals who were not considered worthy of a decent burial, were cast for disposal. What the flames missed, the maggots finished off.
    Without a tomb to prove that they had ever lived, Jewish understanding would have considered them unworthy of a resurrection. Their tombs were their memorial...so, no tomb meant not being remembered by God in the "new earth" . (Isaiah 65:17; Isaiah 66:22)

    According to Wiki...."Writing down the targum was prohibited; nevertheless, some targumatic writings appeared as early as the middle of the first century CE.[1] They were then not recognized as authoritative by the religious leaders, however.[3] Some subsequent Jewish traditions (beginning with the Babylonian Jews) accepted the written targumim as authoritative, and eventually, it became a matter of debate."

    Since Jesus castigated the Pharisees for their disregard for the scriptures, because of their oral traditions, I don't think we can take anything written by Jews in the first century as of any consequence to Christians. (Matthew 15:6-9)
     
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  9. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Jesus' promise to the thief was for a resurrection that he promised in John 5:28-29. Both "the righteous and the unrighteous" will be brought back to life on earth....called out of their tombs. This is what Jesus promised the thief......an earthly paradise, not heaven....and not that day. Jesus was dead for three days before his resurrection. Any mention of him being active in any way during those three days is unsupported in scripture.

    There is no way that unrighteous people will inherit the Kingdom. The thief was being executed for the crimes he committed. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10) Those chosen to rule with Christ have a proven record of their faithfulness under test. No deathbed conversion gets anyone into heaven. Did you not realize that there are two resurrections? (Revelation 20:6) One is to heaven for those chosen to rule with Christ (these are resurrected "first") and the other is to life under Kingdom rule on earth. (Revelation 21:2-4) Not all Christians will go to heaven. That was never God's intention. He created us to live on earth forever. (Isaiah 55:11)

    I believe that you are making a few assumptions of your own. Job spoke about the resurrection, and Jesus and his apostles believed in it because they performed resurrections themselves.....Jesus left his resurrection in God's hands. All prospects for his life to continue were tied up in his resurrection.

    I see that you have a problem with Paul because he disagrees with your interpretation of scripture. Jesus was seen and heard by many during the 40 days he remained on earth. Sorry, I'll take Paul's version over yours any day. Peter and the other apostles saw him too. Read Matthew 28:5-10.

    Eight days after his resurrection he appeared to Thomas to show him his wounds. He did not ascend to heaven for 40 days. He appeared many times during that period. (Luke 24:29-31; John 21:12-14; Acts 1:1-3) Scripture speaks for itself.
     
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  10. Rough Beast Sloucher

    Rough Beast Sloucher Well-Known Member
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    Job did not contradict himself. He would have wanted a resurrection but he knew it was not going to happen. God destroys that hope and prevails against man forever. This is the belief system found in those parts of the NT written prior to the 3rd century. After that we see a belief in life after death and in resurrection (not necessarily together) in places like the earliest portion of 1 Enoch, the Book of the Watchers), the Book of Judith, the Book of Daniel, the Targums.

    The Aramaic Targums with their commentary added onto the Jewish scriptures, or modifying those scriptures, reflected the beliefs of the Aramaic speaking common people in the 1st century BCE. The old notions of luck sucking for the lower classes and death being the final end while the upper classes enjoyed life while they could did not cut it any more. This was especially true as foreign oppression got worse than ever under the Romans.

    A religious leader who himself came from the lower classes and preached an afterlife with reward for the righteous and punishment for the bad guys, ideas already in the popular imagination, was going to draw crowds. When this involved a general resurrection and judgment, an opportunity for redressing all the imbalances of history big time, and it was going to go down very soon, a movement was born.

    The point is that the several different schools of thought about the afterlife that appear in the NT derive from ideas developed and written in the 3rd, 2nd and 1st centuries BCE. Even though only some of the works containing those ideas became canonical, their influence can be seen in the NT.
     
  11. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I think this is a good question.
    Jesus was very familiar with not only scriptures, but reality, and he knew the scripture at Psalm 146:4 - His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish; Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Then the dust returns to the earth, just as it was, and the spirit returns to the true God who gave it.; Psalm 104:29, 30 - . . .If you take away their spirit, they die and return to the dust.  If you send out your spirit, they are created,. . ..
    Finally, Jesus was familiar with Exodus 3:6, which he quoted, in giving an answer to those who did not think anyone dead had any hope of returning to life. He said, at Luke 20:38 . . .He is a God, not of the dead, but of the living, for they are all living to him.

    So, rather than view the situation from a human standpoint, which Solomon was doing at Ecclesiastes 9, Jesus was viewing thing from God's standpoint, which is the way Christians view things.

    God is the one who gives life, therefore any future life prospects for those who die, rests in God's hand. Jesus, when dying, acknowledged that truth - “Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.” After he said this, he expired. (Luke 23:46)

    To prove this further, Jesus directly stated that he understood that a human viewpoint would limit ones understanding, but knowledge of the truth about his Father, would not.
    John 5:25-29
    25 “Most truly I say to you, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who have paid attention will live. 26For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to do judging, because he is the Son of man. 28Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.

    Looking at the scriptures in its entirety, helps us get an overall picture, and clears up any confusion. :)
     
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  12. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark

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    Jesus did not go to sleep on death. He went to preach to the spirits of the dead in Hades. Just as every stage of his life and ministry was committed to God it is a small surprise that his death and the ministry that would follow should also include such commitment.

    Ecclesiastes is the reflections of a wise man ( most probably Solomon) about death. Solomon did not know as much as New Testament Christians about what happens at death.
     
  13. Rough Beast Sloucher

    Rough Beast Sloucher Well-Known Member
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    9 And he answered me, and said to me: “These three places where made, in order that they might separate the spirits of the dead. And thus the souls of the righteous have been separated; this is the spring of water, and on it the light.
    (Revelation 14:13), (John 4:14), (John 7:38), (Revelation 22:1)

    It is possible that these are references to Enoch, although water is a not uncommon image. If they are, it would be more examples of connection0s from the NT back to Enoch.

    10 Likewise, a place has been created for sinners, when they die, and are buried in the earth, and judgment has not come upon them during their life.
    (Exodus 23:7), (Ben Sira 9:11-12)

    Exodus 23
    7 Keep far from a false charge, and do not kill the innocent and righteous, for I will not acquit the wicked.

    Ben Sira 9
    11 Envy not the glory of a sinner: for thou knowest not what shall be his end.
    12 Delight not in the thing that the ungodly have pleasure in; but remember they shall not go unpunished unto their grave.

    When the punishment comes on the wicked in Exodus is ambiguous but in Ben Sira it is definitely before death. This is different from Enoch where the judgment is after death. Enoch’s image of afterlife reward and punishment does not fit here.

    11 And here their souls will be separated for this great torment, until the Great Day of Judgment and Punishment and Torment for those who curse, forever, and of vengeance on their souls. And there he will bind them forever. Verily, He is, from the beginning of the world.
    (Ben Sira 21:10), (Job 24:19-20), (Job 7:9-11), (Wisdom 16:14), (Job 14:11-13), (Psalm 17:13-15), (Daniel 12:2), (Matthew 25:46), (John 5:28-29), (Acts 24:15)

    Ben Sira 21
    9 The congregation of the wicked is like tow wrapped together: and the end of them is a flame of fire to destroy them.
    10 The way of sinners is made plain with stones, but at the end thereof is the pit of hell.

    This fits much better with Enoch. Note that Ben Sira was written in early 2nd century BCE, after the Book of the Watchers in 1 Enoch.

    Job 24
    19 Drought and heat snatch away the snow waters; so does Sheol those who have sinned.
    20 The womb forgets them; the worm finds them sweet; they are no longer remembered, so wickedness is broken like a tree.’

    Job 7
    9 As the cloud fades and vanishes, so he who goes down to Sheol does not come up;
    10 he returns no more to his house, nor does his place know him anymore.

    Job 14
    11 As waters fail from a lake and a river wastes away and dries up,
    12 so a man lies down and rises not again; till the heavens are no more he will not awake or be roused out of his sleep.
    13 Oh that you would hide me in Sheol, that you would conceal me until your wrath be past, that you would appoint me a set time, and remember me!

    This is in line with Job’s lament that death is the end. There is nothing after that. Not the beliefs found in 1 Enoch. As discussed earlier, Job 14 is a lament that a resurrection would be great but it is not going to happen.

    Wisdom 16
    14 A man indeed killeth through his malice: and the spirit, when it is gone forth, returneth not; neither the soul received up cometh again.

    Also in line with the ‘death is the end’ way of thinking.

    Psalm 17
    8 Keep me as the apple of your eye; hide me in the shadow of your wings,
    9 from the wicked who do me violence, my deadly enemies who surround me.
    10 They close their hearts to pity; with their mouths they speak arrogantly.
    11 They have now surrounded our steps; they set their eyes to cast us to the ground.
    12 He is like a lion eager to tear, as a young lion lurking in ambush.

    13 Arise, O Lord! Confront him, subdue him! Deliver my soul from the wicked by your sword,
    14 from men by your hand, O Lord, from men of the world whose portion is in this life. You fill their womb with treasure; they are satisfied with children, and they leave their abundance to their infants.
    15 As for me, I shall behold your face in righteousness; when I awake, I shall be satisfied with your likeness.

    While verse 15 is often put forward as proof that David believed in a resurrection way back, if we look at the preceding verses that does not seem so certain. David is praying that the Lord will deliver him from specific earthly foes ‘by your sword’ which indicates within the world, not by some future salvation.

    The ‘when I awake’ part could simply be a reference back to an earlier part of the Psalm.

    3 You have tried my heart, you have visited me by night, you have tested me, and you will find nothing; I have purposed that my mouth will not transgress.
    4 With regard to the works of man, by the word of your lips I have avoided the ways of the violent.
    5 My steps have held fast to your paths; my feet have not slipped.

    Daniel 2
    2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    As discussed earlier, this part of Daniel dates to about 167-164 BCE. The idea of resurrection with reward and punishment is already in the air, although this is the ‘soul sleep’ variation.

    Matthew 25
    46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

    This is in conjunction with verse 41.
    “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

    The image pf the rebellious angels being punished in fire appears in various places in 1 Enoch. Notice that this is also of the ‘soul sleep’ variety, with reward and punishment happening when the Son of Man returns.

    John 5
    28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

    Acts 24
    15 having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust.

    Again the soul sleep variation in both of these.

    As we have seen, Luke portrays reward and punishment beginning immediately after death, with clear references to 1 Enoch. Paul’s epistles mention the resurrection of the righteous but make no mention of the unrighteous.

    I have given a reference to a translation where the word chasm is used.
    Book of Enoch

    Here is another one.
    The Book of Enoch, Chapters 1-60

    These use the Laurence translation. Your source uses the Charles translation from a different manuscript. Both are Ethiopic manuscripts and not the later Greek ones which show definite signs of scribal editing. The earliest examples were apparently in Aramaic judging by the fragments found in the dead Sea Scrolls. Recall that earliest part of 1 Enoch dates to the 3rd century BCE. No surprise that there might be variant manuscripts. There are variant manuscripts of the NT.

    Regardless, both Luke and Enoch have reward and punishment immediately after death and have the righteous and the sinners separated. These are distinctive characteristics that do not appear anywhere else. These clear connections with 1 Enoch 22 show that Luke had access to a version that used the word ‘chasm’. Jude quotes from a variant of 1 Enoch of the type used by Charles and not by Laurence.

    Ecclesiastes 9:5,6, 10 relates the condition of the dead in "sheol"......they are not conscious, they exhibit no emotions, they cannot plan and there is no activity.

    Yes, the original idea in the earlier parts of the OT are that death is the end, period. With the frequent and increasingly severe oppression of the Jews by foreign powers, that became not good enough. A resurrection with reward and (usually) punishment was invented, with or without the soul sleep concept. This allowed making up for the wicked enjoying good lives, often because they were wicked, and the righteous leading miserable lives. Several variants of reward/punishment in the afterlife were developed and all were incorporated at different places in the NT. This underlines the point that the faithful want to ignore, that the NT does not present a consistent theology concerning the afterlife.
     
  14. Rough Beast Sloucher

    Rough Beast Sloucher Well-Known Member
    It's My Birthday!

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    As I said earlier, parables employ concepts familiar to the audience. Luke 16 portrays reward and punishment immediately after death. If that were not familiar to the audience – both disciples and Pharisees – the story would fall flat and no one would be able to make heads or tails out of it. But because it refers to a major work in the popular apocalyptic literature of the time, they would understand the reference. Whether everyone agreed with it is irrelevant. This is Luke’s take on the matter.

    The NT is full of afterlife reward/punishment scenarios. They do not all agree. If you say that Jesus would not have taught about heaven and hell because it is not in the OT, then we have to throw out a whole lot of the NT as fake.

    BTW the idea of reward or punishment immediately after death is part of Jewish thought as expressed in the Mishnah and presumably essentially that of the Pharisees of the time of Jesus.

    “It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death.”
    GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

    So? What is the inspired word of God? The KJV, Luther’s Bible, the books agreed on at Carthage and Hippo at the end of the 4th century? Is the Septuagint inspired? The writers of the NT used it. And that includes Judith which as I previously quoted talks about eternal punishment for the wicked.

    That is a convenient way of ignoring anything you find inconvenient.
    It is Revelation that refers to the lake of fire. I have already quoted a reference in Revelation to eternal punishment for people. The phrase ‘death and Hades’ appears several times in Revelation. Hades is simply how one says Sheol in Greek. Death and Hades are essentially the same thing. When death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire, it shows that there is no longer any place where the dead await final judgment. It is either heaven or the lake. And as seen in Revelation 14

    9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

    Revelation 19 states that the fire in the lake of fire is burning sulfur.

    20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

    Those thrown into the lake of fire are not annihilated. Their torment will go on day and night forever and ever. If they get just get annihilated, why bother resurrecting them at all?

    I have already linked above to the concept of Gehenna as it was perceived by the Jews who wrote the Mishnah in the 2nd century when the traditions of the Pharisees were first written down. It was hell, a place of punishment for the dead sinner.


    The Aramaic Targums embodied the ideas of the common people. As I have shown in earlier posts, this included the idea of permanent punishment in the afterlife for the unrighteous. It was the common people who followed Jesus. It was an apocalyptic-minded age when feelings against the occupying Romans were rising, eventually leading to the bloody and unsuccessful Jewish Revolt. The common people, who suffered the most, would want the bad guys to burn in hell forever, starting right away. Living high on the hog by oppressing the lower classes gets you oblivion without suffering? Is that supposed to redress the historic imbalance? According to almost all of the OT, that is the way it is going to be anyway, whether you are on the top or the bottom. Why would the suffering underdogs be happy with that? Roasting the bad guys forever? Now you’re talking.
     
  15. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Well, actually if you look in Genesis, death was never supposed to happen, so man was programmed to go on living.....forever.
    Disobedience brought the penalty of death..."the wages of sin". It is ingrained in us to keep living....we have no 'program' for death. It feels as wrong today as it did when the first human was killed by his own brother. God never mentioned a heaven or hell scenario for Adam or Cain, or anyone else for that matter.

    The only way death could be brought to nothing is if someone paid for Adam's sin.(Romans 5:12) Jesus volunteered to sacrifice his perfect human life to cancel the debt Adam left for his children. The only way for Jesus to come to earth and give his life and still be the Messiah for the human race, was if God raised him from the dead. Elijah has resurrected a young boy over 900 years before Jesus was born. (1 Kings 17:21-24)

    Isaiah 25:8 also speaks of death being eliminated. This is why living forever strikes a chord in the hearts of us humans.....since death is what we experience and God intends to eliminate death altogether, what of those who have died without any way to know God or to please him? The resurrection is what Jesus promised......

    "Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment." (John 5:28-29)
    It was going to be a future event. So where were all those "souls" who died before Jesus came? According to Jesus, they are still in their graves....sleeping peacefully, unaware of what has gone on all these centuries. Time has ceased for them.

    Both "the righteous and the unrighteous" are called from the same place.....their graves are on earth and this is a reflection of the resurrection that the Jews believed in before they adopted the Greek immortal soul idea. It appealed to the minds of men because it gave them a way to go on living....in another realm. Its not the way God planned it though. All the resurrections mentioned in the Bible were back to life on earth. The only one who went to heaven was Jesus. (John 3:13)He said he was coming back for his co-rulers but it was not until his return after he was crowned as king. Daniel saw it in a vision thousands of years before it happened. (Daniel 7:13-14; Daniel 2:44)

    Psalm 115: 16-18....
    "As for the heavens, they belong to Jehovah, But the earth he has given to the sons of men.
    17 The dead do not praise Jah; Nor do any who go down into the silence of death.
    18 But we will praise Jah From now on and forever. Praise Jah!"


    The earth is ours....gifted to us by our Heavenly Father. But death comes to us all, so how was David going to praise God from the grave...a place of silence? "The dead do not praise God". Since the ancient Jews (as opposed to those who later put more trust in their oral traditions than on God's word) did not believe in life after death, the only way to live forever was to be resurrected. Jesus and the apostles showed them how, by raising the dead and healing the sick....they showed the people that it was possible.

    It would be helpful to know what you believe since your posts are rather confusing as to what faith you follow......or is it your own? Are you Christian or something else?
     
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  16. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    King Solomon was known for having godly wisdom according to 1 Kings 3:16-28.
    So, it should come as No surprise that at Ecclesiastes 9:5 that Solomon wrote that the dead know nothing.
    That is in harmony with the Psalms such as Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4.
    This is also why Isaiah at Isaiah 38:18 also believed those in the grave can Not praise God.
    So, the day Jesus died he was Not resurrected. Jesus was in the grave - Acts of the Apostles 2:27.
    Jesus was asleep in the grave for days before his God resurrected Jesus out of biblical hades (grave).
    Since Jesus taught ' sleep in death ' at John 11:11-14 then Jesus was in harmony with the old Hebrew Scriptures.

    I find 1 Peter 3:18 is talking about the resurrected (alive) spirit Jesus who was resurrected days after he died.
    Thus, the resurrected spirit Jesus spoke to those bad spirits of 1 Peter 3:19-20.
    They are the fallen spirits, or fallen angels according to 2 Peter 2:4-5; Jude 1:6
    By appearing to those devils then they knew Jesus was resurrected and destruction awaits them.
     
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  17. Sharikind

    Sharikind Active Member

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    Would you say life is the opposite of death, or is death simply a continuation of life but not in the body.
     
  18. Sharikind

    Sharikind Active Member

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    Or maybe death is a continuation of life in the body unseen by human eyes of those who have not died.
     
  19. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    That depends on if you believe the Bible. In the very early part of the Bible there is no "heaven or hell" scenario mentioned for human beings. There is only life and death. God's people did not believe that they lived on after death because God never told them that they would. It was the devil who told the woman she would not die. He lied.

    Adam was not told about heaven or hell. He was already in Paradise here on earth, so the only way to die and lose that paradise was to disobey one simple command.

    1 Timothy 2:14...."...Adam was not deceived, but the woman was thoroughly deceived and became a transgressor."

    The woman fell for the deceit, but the man did not. So we have both disobeying God and suffering the eventual death penalty, but for different reasons.

    Some people think that Jesus' resurrection was in a physical body, though a different kind of body. That is not what Peter said....

    At 1 Peter 3:18.....he said that Jesus was "put to death in the flesh, but.....made alive in the spirit." Meaning that his fleshly body, offered in sacrifice to God, was no more. He was resurrected in a spiritual body......one capable of materializing at will. Angels too had this ability. They appeared in human form as messengers when God wanted to convey his will to his earthly servants. Once their mission was complete, they dematerialized and returned to the spirit realm.

    Jesus only "appeared" to his disciples after his resurrection, he did not take up residence with them again, as he had for three and a half years as their constant companion.

    There is no life after death except by resurrection. That is what the majority of mankind will experience. Jesus will call them from their graves to be reunited with their families, but not until he returns as king and has defeated all opposers. (John 5:28-29)
    This is what Jesus demonstrated when he resurrected the dead in the first century. His friend Lazarus was one example.
    Where was Lazarus before Jesus brought him back to life? Jesus said he was "sleeping" (John 11:11-14) There was no recollection on Lazarus' part of being anywhere. He would have awoken wondering why he was bound up in grave wrappings. :shrug:
     
  20. GoldenThread

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    I think the overall lesson that we get from Jesus committing His spirit to God can be overlooked if we try to focus on something outside of it's context.

    I would encourage you to look at this part in scripture from the perspective of putting yourself in Jesus' shoes and asking yourself, "why this part of scripture was included for people to read."

    If people are reading (any) scripture to look for the faults in what is being shared, then the clear message can 'go over our heads' if we are reading we choose to see things from a bias perspective.

    In peace
     
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