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Featured Question about jesus

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by Frank Goad, Dec 23, 2018.

  1. Frank Goad

    Frank Goad Active Member

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    In luke 23:46 it says jesus committed his spirit to God.Why would jesus care what happened to his spirit if he knew he was just going to sleep like in ecc 9:5?Why would he have to direct his spirit?I am confused.[​IMG]
     
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  2. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    Interfaith?
     
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  3. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    The Bible contradicts itself because it was written by different groups of people with different agendas.
    Ecc 9:5 doesn’t say the dead sleep it says essentially that the dead stay dead.
    read 9:5-6 for full context
     
  4. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    For the sake of the reader I should point out that it is the opinion of the poster above that the Bible contradicts itself. A common misconception, and here unsupported.
     
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  5. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    To me, Jesus committed his life's spirit ( the spirit and spark of life ) to his God.
    As Ecclesiastes 12:7 says that one's spirit (it) returns to God.
    So, any vital life's spirit, it, then rests in God's safe hands until the person is resurrected.
    So, God ' gathers in ' or could accept , or be accepting of one's spirit in a figurative sense.
    A literal spirit does Not have go or to move away from Earth.
    Just as a foreclosed house does Not have to move or go anywhere but just is returned to the owner's hands.
     
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  6. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find at Ecclesiastes 9:5,10 that the dead know nothing. ( No mention that the dead have to stay dead )
    'Know nothing' is in harmony with Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4 that the dead are in a sleep-like state.
    That is why Jesus also likened death to sleep at John 11:11-14.
    So, while in the grave dead Jesus was in an unconscious deep-sleep state - Acts of the Apostles 2:27.
     
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  7. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    The idea that a set of books written by various unknown people at various places for various purposes between say 1000 and 400 BCE and another set of 'books' written by Paul and various unknown people at various places for more focused purposes between say 50 and 100 CE should together form a harmonious whole is not tenable. It requires either ignoring particular texts or forcing peculiar meanings on them eg the claim that the Garden story in Genesis is about the fall of man (which is neither mentioned nor implied in the tale), or that Isaiah 53 is a prophecy of a future Jesus instead of a comment on the then state of Israel ─ Jesus is never mentioned in the Tanakh and was never the messiah envisaged by the Tanakh, who would lead the Jewish state back to independence and terrestrial dominance.

    The early books of the Tanakh recognize other gods eg Chemosh in Judges 11:24, and indeed in the Decalogue, 'no other gods before me' instead of 'ain't no other gods'. Yahweh doesn't become a monogod until about the time of the Captivity. (And he doesn't become the Christian god, freed of his covenant with the Jews, until about 100 CE, and he doesn't evolve to have three parts until just before 400 CE.)

    The morality of God embraces confessed jealousy of other gods, approval of slavery (including rules on bonking slaves), male dominance, massacres, mass rapes, human sacrifices, homophobia, and so on. These things reflect the customs of times and places, and are hardly unique to the Jews, but they don't form a single harmonious whole with later messages of the bible.

    What use is bible study if you're forbidden to understand what the text actually says, and are compelled instead to learn stock answers and excuses in the name of a harmony that doesn't exist?
     
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  8. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

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    It's still contradictory of which Jesus had been said to be in Hell or Hades for 3 days.
     
  9. Frank Goad

    Frank Goad Active Member

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    In luke 23:46 it says jesus committed his spirit to God.Why would jesus care what happened to his spirit if he knew he was just going to sleep like in ecc 9:5?Why would he have to direct his spirit?I am confused.[​IMG]

    That still doesn't answer the question of why jesus said i commit my spirit into your hands.It kind of reminds me of the prayer little kids say when they go to sleep."If i should die before i wake i pray the lord my soul he will take".Also if jesus knew he would soul sleep why would he care were his spirit energy went in the first place?
     
  10. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    He wasn't "going to sleep." When His body lay in the tomb, He would have appeared to be asleep, but His spirit -- which was what gave His body life in the first place -- was temporarily (i.e. for three days) separated from His body.
     
  11. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I suppose if you are referring to literal 24-hour days, but Jesus was in the grave (biblical hell) for parts of 3 days.
    KJV translated Hebrew and Greek words into English as hell/hades (even as hellfire) but the Bible's hell is just mankind's temporary stone-cold grave for the sleeping dead, otherwise if biblical hell was permanent then Jesus would still be in hell/grave. To me, the contradiction is clergy wrongly teaching that there is fire/pain in biblical hell.
    Whereas Jesus and the OT teach unconscious sleep in death - John 11:11-14; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5.
     
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  12. Rough Beast Sloucher

    Rough Beast Sloucher Well-Known Member
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    The Greek in Luke 23:46 translates directly as “Father, into the hands of you I shall be placing the spirit of me. and saying this he expires”. It simply sounds that Jesus realizes he is dying right now, that is, the body is giving up the spirit. Complicated issues like permanent death, soul sleep etc. do not strike me as being relevant.

    But if you want scriptural support for what Jesus meant, try Ecclesiastes 12:7 “and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.”

    Let us also keep in mind that Luke presents neither permanent death nor soul sleep. Resurrection is all through all of the Gospels. Luke in particular does not even believe in soul sleep. In Luke 16:19-31 he tells the story of Lazarus and the rich man, both of whom are conscious after death while others (e.g., the brothers of Lazarus) are still alive. In Luke 23:39-43, Jesus tells the repentant thief that he will be in paradise that same day.
     
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  13. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    To me, Adam's spirit 'it' died when Adam died. Adam did Not receive life's spirit until 'after' God breathed the breath of life into life-less Adam - Genesis 2:7. Once Adam No longer had breath, his life went out like a burned-out light bulb.
    So, like Adam, dead Jesus was then unconscious knowing nothing as Ecclesiastes 9:5,10 says.
    If God would Not later resurrect dead Jesus, then Jesus would still be in the grave - Acts of the Apostles 2:27.
    God resurrected Jesus back to his previous pre-human spirit heavenly body when God resurrected dead Jesus.
    That is why, after God resurrected Jesus, that people did Not recognize Jesus because Jesus put on different materialized human bodies in order to be visible to his followers.
    At Jesus' resurrection point, is when the spirit-person Jesus got his life's spirit back.
     
  14. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find the account in Luke 16 is a story an illustration and for sure Not a real happening.
    The dead know nothing, nothing but sleep - John 11:11-14; Psalms 11115:17; Psalms 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5

    On the very day Jesus and the thief died, that is when Jesus made the future promise of paradise.
    Truly, I tell you today, you will be with me.... The comma (,) is after the word today Not before.
    No one had a resurrection before Jesus (John 3:13) and Jesus was Not resurrected the day he died.
    So, as Acts of the Apostles 24:15 uses the ' future tense ' that there ' is going to be ' a resurrection.....
    Then, the majority of mankind will have a future resurrection. Including King David - Acts of the Apostles 2:34.
    Resurrection is a teaching that death is Not permanent.
    Even Daniel looks forward to being 'awakened from death's deep sleep' at Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13.

    I like have you mentioned the spirit (it) returns to God who gave it ( "it" ). It is Not a person.
    As a foreclosed house does Not move or go anywhere but simply ' returns ' to the owner's hands.
    So, one's life's spirit 'returns' to God in that any future life now rests in God's safe hands.
     
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  15. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Thanks for your perspective, but I'm afraid I disagree. I believe that Adam's body became alive when God breathed life into him, or in other words, when He put his spirit into his physical body. I believe that when Adam died, his "life" (i.e. his spirit) went out but did not cease to exist. Like Jesus' spirit, when Jesus commended it into His Father's hands, it left his body and his body became lifeless. I don't believe that Adam's spirit was snuffed out or ceased to exist. Neither do I believe that Jesus' spirit was snuffed out or ceased to exist when it left His mortal body, causing His body to die. I believe that during the time His body lay lifeless in the tomb, His spirit was very much alive, and was visiting the spirits of those in the Spirit Prison. I believe that when Jesus was resurrected, His spirit re-entered His body, giving it new life, but that His new body was perfect and immortal, no longer subject to disease, injury or death and no longer sustained by blood but by pure spirit. Undoubtedly, you see things differently. I can respect that.
     
  16. Rough Beast Sloucher

    Rough Beast Sloucher Well-Known Member
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    Ecclesiastes 9 seems to suggest that death is permanent, forever with no more reward.

    Ecclesiastes 9
    5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.

    One might imagine that this could be reconciled with a resurrection. Job is often invoked as a belief in resurrection. But if you look at the passage in context and not just as a couple of one-liners, it becomes clear the Job does not believe in resurrection. He would like to have a resurrection but it is not going to happen.

    Job 14
    7 “For there is hope for a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that its shoots will not cease.
    8 Though its root grow old in the earth, and its stump die in the soil,
    9 yet at the scent of water it will bud and put out branches like a young plant.
    10 But a man dies and is laid low; man breathes his last, and where is he?
    11 As waters fail from a lake and a river wastes away and dries up,
    12 so a man lies down and rises not again; till the heavens are no more he will not awake or be roused out of his sleep.
    13 Oh that you would hide me in Sheol, that you would conceal me until your wrath be past, that you would appoint me a set time, and remember me!
    14 If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my service I would wait, till my renewal should come.
    15 You would call, and I would answer you; you would long for the work of your hands.
    16 For then you would number my steps; you would not keep watch over my sin;
    17 my transgression would be sealed up in a bag, and you would cover over my iniquity.
    18 “But the mountain falls and crumbles away, and the rock is removed from its place;
    19 the waters wear away the stones; the torrents wash away the soil of the earth; so you destroy the hope of man.
    20 You prevail forever against him, and he passes; you change his countenance, and send him away.

    The idea of resurrection does not appear in the OT until Daniel. Chapters 10-12 can be dated quite accurately by the events described and by the events not described as being written between 167 and 164 BCE. The ideas of a future resurrection and of reward and punishment not just then but immediately after death appear in the earlier portion of 1 Enoch, the part called the Book of the Watchers. This dates to perhaps 300 BCE. That is, the idea that death is not the end appeared later than the writing of the bulk of the OT.

    The Lazarus passage in Luke 16 refers very explicitly to 1 Enoch. Recall that Jesus is talking to his disciples in the hearing of the Pharisees. Since Pharisees were learned men, it is reasonable to assume that they were familiar with 1 Enoch. (We might note here that Jude refers specifically to 1 Enoch by name and by content.) The Lazarus story is clearly aimed at them, spelling out the consequences of their losing sight of the spirit of the Law, especially charity, a point that appears elsewhere in the Gospels. If they were not familiar with 1 Enoch, they would laugh at this ridiculous story and give go credence to the message of Jesus. Also, Jesus gives no indication that this story represents anything other than the real deal. Why would he lie to his disciples?

    So what do you think this was an illustration of?

    Concerning Luke 23, there are no commas in Ancient Greek. In English translations, it is just about universal practice to put the comma before ‘today’ or ‘this day’ and not after it. Jesus is talking to the guy why would he need to say that he is talking to him today? Add to this that Luke is already on record in the Lazarus story as siding with immediate reward and punishment.

    People who do not want immediate reward/punishment after death love to go into grammatical analysis about the relative position of verbs and adverbs in koine Greek. Yet in Luke 4:21 and 19:9 very definitely has the verb that the ‘today’ adverb modifies follow the adverb, not precede it.

    Luke 4:21 And he began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”

    Luke 19:9 And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, since he also is a son of Abraham”

    Compare to:

    Luke 23:42-43
    And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

    Not just remember the guy some time or other but today.

    Ancient Greek was rather free about word order, with the arrangement often intended to make the point clear. Starting a phrase with ‘Today’ makes it more dramatic, underlining the immediacy of the point. Luke wrote some glorious Greek, with real impact when it was needed. This is an example of that.
     
  17. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Jesus said that he would be "in the heart of the earth for three days and nights". (Matthew 12:40) "The earth" has no connection to Christendom's "hell" which was borrowed from a platonic Greek idea about immortality of the soul. Most non-Christian religions have such a teaching in some form. But you won't find it in the Bible. When Jesus said that he would be in the grave for three days and nights.....I believe he had no reason to lie. "He was put to death in the flesh", just as Peter said, but "made alive in the spirit". (1 Peter 3:18) That did not happen for three days, so Jesus did not go anywhere for the three days his body was in the tomb. That body was sacrificed for the sins of mankind....no one would never see that body again.

    Jesus was raised as a spirit and spirits have the ability to materialize human flesh. The bodies Jesus appeared in after his resurrection were not always recognizable. Only on one occasion when he needed to convince Thomas, did he appear in a wounded body.....at other times there were no wounds mentioned. On one occasion when he appeared to his disciples, they only recognized him when he broke the bread but then he vanished into thin air. (Luke 24:28-31)
     
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  18. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    You have to understand what Jesus was saying to his Father.....he was about to breathe his last as a human being. His "spirit" was his lifeforce, which was implanted in the womb of Mary at his physical conception. That spirit or lifeforce returns to God when any human dies, in the sense that all prospects for future life rest with the Father. Jesus was demonstrating his trust in Jehovah to restore his life in heaven. He would return to the realm where he came from, but not for 40 days. He spent those 40 days building up the faith of his apostles who had to carry on without him in the flesh. He would most certainly continue to be "with them" in spirit. (in the power of the spirit) (Matthew 28:19-20)

    Jesus was not subject to the same "soul sleep" as we are. He slept for only three days. His friend Lazarus slept for four days, (John 11:11-14) but he was returned to this life, reunited with his family. Did you ever wonder that if Lazarus was in heaven enjoying his new life, and Jesus dragged him back to this troubled life, only to die again later, why he would do that? How did Jesus do him any favors? What do you think?
     
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  19. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Solomon used this expression "under the sun" to mean this life. He said in Ecclesiastes 1:9-10..."What has been is what will be, And what has been done will be done again; There is nothing new under the sun."

    You quoted....Job 14 but neglected to highlight the main point....

    Job 14
    "7 “For there is hope for a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that its shoots will not cease.
    8 Though its root grow old in the earth, and its stump die in the soil,
    9 yet at the scent of water it will bud and put out branches like a young plant.
    10 But a man dies and is laid low; man breathes his last, and where is he?
    11 As waters fail from a lake and a river wastes away and dries up,
    12 so a man lies down and rises not again; till the heavens are no more he will not awake or be roused out of his sleep.
    13 Oh that you would hide me in Sheol, that you would conceal me until your wrath be past, that you would appoint me a set time, and remember me!
    14 If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my service I would wait, till my renewal should come.
    15 You would call, and I would answer you; you would long for the work of your hands.
    16 For then you would number my steps; you would not keep watch over my sin;
    17 my transgression would be sealed up in a bag, and you would cover over my iniquity.
    18 “But the mountain falls and crumbles away, and the rock is removed from its place;
    19 the waters wear away the stones; the torrents wash away the soil of the earth; so you destroy the hope of man.
    20 You prevail forever against him, and he passes; you change his countenance, and send him away."


    In this life, death overtakes all of us, but Job did not have the scripture we have. Nor did he have a full understanding of God's purpose in the time when he lived, (about 140 years before Moses died)....but Job knew that sheol was a place where his suffering would end and that God would remember him and call him back to a better life.

    I believe you are mistaken. Job clearly believed in the resurrection and the scripture you quoted confirms it. It was written long before the completion of the OT canon.

    The Book of Enoch is an apocryphal and pseudepigraphic text. It is falsely ascribed to Enoch. Produced probably sometime during the second and first centuries B.C.E., it is a collection of extravagant and unhistorical Jewish myths, evidently the product of exegetical elaborations on the brief Genesis reference to Enoch. This alone is sufficient for lovers of God’s inspired Word to dismiss it.

    It was a parable in amongst many other parables. It is an illustrative story about the Pharisees and those they considered unworthy of their attention.
    The rich man was not said to be particularly wicked but simply concentrated on himself and his life of luxury compared to a beggar who was impoverished and sick because of not getting enough food. Wanting to catch even the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table.

    It is good to note that Jesus made no qualms about how he viewed to Pharisees and their attitude towards the "lost sheep". These were the ones Jesus was sent to, not to the incorrigible religious leaders.

    When the"lost sheep" accepted Jesus as Messiah, there was a role reversal symbolized their their deaths. The beggar now was in the favored position with God (Abraham's bosom) and the Pharisees were now in a state of anguish, tormented by Jesus stinging words of condemnation. There is no teaching of a literal hell of flames in the OT. Jesus was Jewish and would never have taught what was not in God's word.

    When he mentioned "gehenna" (erroneously translated as "hell" in some Bibles) it gave Christendom license to borrow a Greek idea that put the wicked into eternal fire. Gehenna was no such thing. It simply meant a place of eternal destruction, not eternal suffering.

    Matthew 10:28..."And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Ge·henʹna."

    You see that the whole person is "destroyed" in gehenna.

    Jesus was affirming that he was making a promise to that man that day. If you read the scriptures, you will see that Jesus did not go to heaven that day....in fact he spent the next 40 days on earth. (Acts of the Apostles 1:2-3) How does Jesus promise a man that he will be with him in paradise that day when he was dead in his tomb for the next three days. And it was "paradise" the thief was promised, not heaven. Where was the first paradise? Where will Jesus resurrect the dead? (John 5:28-29)

    Shifting the the comma to "today", puts a whole different spin on Jesus' words. Which rendering agrees with the rest of scripture? Certainly not the one that says he would be in paradise with Jesus that day.

    I don't believe it is. Greek had no punctuation, so putting the comma in the wrong place was a way to promote deathbed conversions. This gave those who "converted" just before their death, a way into heaven......something that the rest of scripture does not support. Constantine was said to have done that. Not surprising is it?
     
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  20. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I also find that ' there is nothing new under the sun ' as meaning there is Nothing on Earth that has Not always been here.
    Even modern technology items are made of things that have always been here. - Just a thought.
     
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