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Pro-life and control of women- where do we draw the line?
- Thread starter Rainbow Mage
- Start date
Pagan_Patriot
Active Member
Lol. Eh... I don't expect anyone to agree with me on that part. We'll just have to wait and see if the black and latino birth rate dropa under replacement, and maybe I'll come back and say "see guys I told you so 
".
They're both well on their way though. Last time I checked, black was like 2.1 and latino was like 2.4. Could just be the bad economy though. I just find myself thinking these things at nighy before I sleep.
".They're both well on their way though. Last time I checked, black was like 2.1 and latino was like 2.4. Could just be the bad economy though. I just find myself thinking these things at nighy before I sleep.
Pagan_Patriot
Active Member
Haha ok . It's fine by me.
. It's fine by me.
Curious George
Veteran Member
Basically, but not quite. I suggested that the value of the life in consideration is on one side of the scale while on the other is the fundamental rights of the other person. Is it okay to kill for liberty? It just so happens that our society's value of a fetus or zygote do not outweigh the woman's right to control what happens within and to her own body. I agree that I clearly states that a fetus or zygotes life is values less than a human being who has been born in our society. I even gave examples of how people react differently in concern of these lives and thus demonstrate through action their true views despite whatever words they use. While I a,knowledge there is a facet of the pro life movement who does and would disavow friendship or family for an abortion and I am sure some people have and do fork over 5k for a coffin for their miscarried zygote, the majority of people do not. Moreover, all people value life differently. We must make hard choices. There is both my argument and the legal argument for abortion. The pro life argument while noble breaks down on several factors. Before viability the fetus is 100 percent dependent on the specific mother were she to decide to end her life the baby would die. Despite no direct action of hers to kill the baby. So pro lifers now have a split where the people who advocate for the right to die must necessarily depart from the pro life argument or deny the woman that right as well. Further we have the mothers actions during pregnancy. Continuing down the pro life route brings up the issue of negligent homicide. People who assert that the fetus rights merit the same as a baby either contradict themselves or must advocate for a police investigation into miscarriages and spontaneous abortions. Further we see divergence in pro life philosophy with regard to women who are raped, incest, or extreme genetic disorders which lesson the quality of life for the child once born. Next we must also make the decision when the mothers life is in danger. Finally the question of how pro life are you comes up. What would you sacrifice to ensure a quality life for all of the children. Are you willing to pay 50% tax rate, because the social welfare system is currently horrible. Are you willing to pay 80%? So many pro lifers only care about the life so far. There are too many splits, too many idealistic untruths in pro life philosophy. It is noble to have such a philosophy and to truly love by it without hypocrisy, but that is rare, and certainly not the actual majority view. So my question to pro lifers, how many children have you adopted? Pro lifers must put their money and life where their mouth is. And until that happens they should try to ask themselves, as unpleasant as the thought is, how much do they really care. Women have cared enough to risk their lives with cost hangers and pills, and potions, and back alley abortions. Doctors have cared enough to risk their careers, and prison time. people will continue to take these risks. You want to decrease abortion? Then we need better social welfare programs, better schools, less stigma on motherhood for single moms or young moms. We need to encourage our boys to be living and nurturing fathers. We need to have more families adopt. We need to have greater access to birth control. We can do so much without ever touching a woman's right to control her own body. And these problems are not getting better. how can pro lifers discuss the rights of an unborn fetus or zygote honestly when we, them you and I , pro lifers and pro choicers do so damn little to protect the children's rights that are alive and birthed right now?
Alceste
Vagabond
Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about.
Me Myself
Back to my username
Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about.
Pagan_Patriot
Active Member
Clearly I have no idea what I'm talking about.
Alceste
Vagabond
That's ridiculous. Women know whether they want kids or not. Even minority women. Feminism simply lobbies to ensure women's wishes are respected. Nobody is trying to convince anybody they should use birth control or abort.
Pagan_Patriot
Active Member
Hmm... Well we can't know that for sure. A qoman who's about to get an abortion may change her mind, and they might try to convince her to go through with it. We don't know what happens behind closed doors.
Oh I just love that logic--a woman may change her mind, so she shouldn't have a choice.
Pagan_Patriot
Active Member
That's not even what I said, but ok sure why not.
Alceste
Vagabond
Yes we do know what goes on behind closed doors. Women do, anyway.
Totally ridiculous, and completely missing the point. Pro-choice, unlike pro-life, means exactly what the label implies. We are PRO a woman's right to CHOOSE whether or not to start or enlarge a family and when. That means we support women having babies if they want babies, and we support all forms of birth control, including abortion, for those who don't.
We also trust that women know whether or not they want to have a baby. It's not like they're just trying to decide between a pair of hand bags.
Alceste
Vagabond
Since when was anybody in this thread ever listening to anything anybody else said?
Pagan_Patriot
Active Member
No. You don't know what the abortion doctor tells a woman if she decides to bail on the abortion, unless you were there for every abortion in this country
She is always free to pursue legal avenues if she feels she was coerced.
Alceste
Vagabond
Yes, of course I know. The doctor says "OK" and offers to provide prenatal care or recommend someone instead of an abortion. What on earth do you think is going on in there? Have you ever gone to the doctor with a particular complaint and had to argue with her about what was wrong with you and what you should do about it? They ask you what you're there for and do their best to help you out with whatever you want to accomplish.
Alceste
Vagabond
I have never heard of a woman complaining of being pressured into an abortion by her doctor. It's a totally ridiculous idea. Boyfriend or parents, maybe. Doctor, no. Why on earth would a doctor do that?
I've never hear of a case like that, either. Sure, a woman may change her mind for any reason, such as observing unsanitary conditions to an actual reconsideration of her course of action. But a doctor forcing a procedure on a patient? Too much of a risk for a malpractice lawsuit, imo.