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Premarital Sex?

Smoke

Done here.
I believe I already pointed out that sexual relationships are the most intimate relationships. Therefore they require the most trust. I don't know about you, but I'm not very intimate with my grocer, employer, or auto mechanic. :areyoucra You are obviously missing the whole point.
Sexual relationships are not necessarily the most intimate, unless by intimacy you mean nothing more or less than physical intimacy. If sexual relationships are improved by the constraints you advocate, why wouldn't all relationships be similarly improved? Certainly, it's better if you can have a great deal of trust in your friends, your employer, and your auto mechanic, and those relationships are inevitably damaged when trust is breached.

What is it, specifically, about sex that requires the level of trust and commitment you say it does?

Well, if you already have such a cheapened view of sex, then nothing I can say will mean anything.

I would suggest those who cheapen sex are the ones doing the rationalizing.
You've missed the point entirely. It is: you have invested marriage with a mystical significance quite different from the mystical significance with which the ancients invested it. You're using your own ideals and standards, which they did not share, to justify rules they formulated. I can't understand why you imagine that any view of sex other than your own "cheapens" it, unless you believe your own opinion is precious above all else.

The essence of religion is mystery? That's new to me. So are you suggesting that my faith (Christianity) should be irrational? If so, then why is it constantly criticized by atheists for being irrational? I thought believing in a religion because it was rational was a good thing. ;)
The essence of all religion is mystery. Mystery is not the same thing as irrationality. You can, and many people do, have mystery and reason at the same time. But when one attempts to rationalize mystery, one inevitably falls into irrationality, and makes a fool of oneself.

For example: Early Christians believed that the birth of Jesus was the most singular birth in the history of the world. It made sense to them that such a momentous birth, the entry of such a singular person into the world, should have been accomplished by divine intervention, and they didn't have any trouble believing that the woman who gave birth to such a person must have been a virgin. Early Christians also believed that Jesus was the Messiah, and so must have been a member of the House of David, and quite sensibly (if not accurately) showed Joseph's descent from David to make that point. Mary was the betrothed of Joseph; Jesus belonged to Joseph's house and family, and it was Joseph's ancestry that counted, not Mary's. They didn't bother to get their stories straight on Joseph's actual ancestry, since that wasn't the point. So far so good. All perfectly meaningful to early Christians.

Two millenia later, though, it no longer makes sense to us that Jesus must have been born to a Virgin, so some Christian apologists make the mistake of trying to prove that parthenogenesis is biologically possible, or of trying to prove historically that Jesus was actually born of a Virgin. They are deeply committed to defending nonsensical historical dogma. Some of them will try to make sense of by insisting that Original Sin is passed down through the father, or that the blood is passed down through the father, and must have been sinless to do its redemptive work. The Virgin Birth, for such people, is now completely divorced from the Mystery of the Incarnation, and becomes a matter of great importance in its own right. In their zeal to defend the Virgin Birth, they completely strip it of any mystical meaning it might have had, and while doing so, they resort to absurd "science" and irrational arguments that rightly get them ridiculed for their irrationality.

Likewise, Biblical apologists either go to great lengths to reconcile the two genealogies of Joseph (to preserve the myth that the Bible is inerrant) or flatly contradict their "inerrant" scriptures by insisting that the Lucan genealogy is actually that of Mary, and then they insist -- without any scriptural basis whatsoever -- that Mary is also a descendant of David, because that fits their idea of what being a member of the House of David is.

Early Christians believed that they had a way of connecting with the Divine, which is the greatest Mystery of all. They developed a mythology that seemed conducive to that experience, that Mystery. Many modern Christians have lost the Mystery, but cling tenaciously to a mythology that is no longer meaningful and never did have any value apart from the Mystery. They are like a woman who deserts her husband to devote herself to preserving and defending his high school athletic trophies.
 

Hope

Princesinha
What is it, specifically, about sex that requires the level of trust and commitment you say it does?

The fact that you even have to ask that question is enough for me to know I'd be wasting my time trying to answer it.

You've missed the point entirely. It is: you have invested marriage with a mystical significance quite different from the mystical significance with which the ancients invested it. You're using your own ideals and standards, which they did not share, to justify rules they formulated. I can't understand why you imagine that any view of sex other than your own "cheapens" it, unless you believe your own opinion is precious above all else.

I'm not going by my own opinions, ideals, or standards at all. There you are utterly mistaken. I'm going by the Word of God, and the words of Jesus----both of which hold marriage to be sacred.

For example: Early Christians believed that the birth of Jesus was the most singular birth in the history of the world. It made sense to them that such a momentous birth, the entry of such a singular person into the world, should have been accomplished by divine intervention, and they didn't have any trouble believing that the woman who gave birth to such a person must have been a virgin. Early Christians also believed that Jesus was the Messiah, and so must have been a member of the House of David, and quite sensibly (if not accurately) showed Joseph's descent from David to make that point. Mary was the betrothed of Joseph; Jesus belonged to Joseph's house and family, and it was Joseph's ancestry that counted, not Mary's. They didn't bother to get their stories straight on Joseph's actual ancestry, since that wasn't the point. So far so good. All perfectly meaningful to early Christians.

Two millenia later, though, it no longer makes sense to us that Jesus must have been born to a Virgin, so some Christian apologists make the mistake of trying to prove that parthenogenesis is biologically possible, or of trying to prove historically that Jesus was actually born of a Virgin. They are deeply committed to defending nonsensical historical dogma. Some of them will try to make sense of by insisting that Original Sin is passed down through the father, or that the blood is passed down through the father, and must have been sinless to do its redemptive work. The Virgin Birth, for such people, is now completely divorced from the Mystery of the Incarnation, and becomes a matter of great importance in its own right. In their zeal to defend the Virgin Birth, they completely strip it of any mystical meaning it might have had, and while doing so, they resort to absurd "science" and irrational arguments that rightly get them ridiculed for their irrationality.

Likewise, Biblical apologists either go to great lengths to reconcile the two genealogies of Joseph (to preserve the myth that the Bible is inerrant) or flatly contradict their "inerrant" scriptures by insisting that the Lucan genealogy is actually that of Mary, and then they insist -- without any scriptural basis whatsoever -- that Mary is also a descendant of David, because that fits their idea of what being a member of the House of David is.

Early Christians believed that they had a way of connecting with the Divine, which is the greatest Mystery of all. They developed a mythology that seemed conducive to that experience, that Mystery. Many modern Christians have lost the Mystery, but cling tenaciously to a mythology that is no longer meaningful and never did have any value apart from the Mystery. They are like a woman who deserts her husband to devote herself to preserving and defending his high school athletic trophies.

Well, all this is a topic for another thread, but suffice it to say your understanding of Christianity is so far removed from the real thing as to be a different religion entirely.
 

Mercy Not Sacrifice

Well-Known Member
Polls consistently show that about 90% of Americans engage in premarital sex. The figures might actually be higher for some European countries. Given that so many people engage in premarital sex, would it not be wise to structure teen sexuality education around the premise that at some point in their lives, most teens will engage in premarital sex, and prepare them for that eventuality by emphasizing the responsible use of condoms, etc.?

Only if you want adolescents to have a lower risk of contracting STD's and a higher chance of living to an old age.

So yeah, it's a moral issue as well as an issue of common sense.

Devil's Advocate time:

Polls consistently show that about 90% of Americans drive over the speed limit. The figures might actually be higher for some European countries. Given that so many people drive over the speed limit, would it not be wise to structure driver's education around the premise that at some point in their lives, most Americans will engage in unsafe driving, and prepare them for that eventuality by emphasizing the responsible use of tricking cops out of giving them speeding tickets, etc.?


eudaimonia,

Mark

Wrong conclusion to the right problem. Yes some speed limits are arbitrary, but for those that are, let's change the speed limits themselves and not the enforcement of them. Our traffic enforcement system, IMO, is one of the brightest points in our justice system, simply because it recognizes that humans are...well, human.
 

Mercy Not Sacrifice

Well-Known Member
Well, all this is a topic for another thread, but suffice it to say your understanding of Christianity is so far removed from the real thing as to be a different religion entirely.

Huh. If that thread starts, it'd be interesting to see what would defend this.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
I'm still wondering why love must equal marriage, and the vows of marriage must be taken to have bonds of trust placed.
You enter into any contract already having intentions. I would see getting married to have the bonds as more like prearragned marriages, or a marriage you really don't want to get into, but are obliged to.
 

Smoke

Done here.
I'm still wondering why love must equal marriage, and the vows of marriage must be taken to have bonds of trust placed.
There's no good reason. Nor is there any good reason why you should only have sex with somebody you're truly in love with, or why having sex with somebody you don't have a commitment to would harm your relationship with somebody you committed to later. They just have these rules, and there's no good reason for them, so if you want an explanation you're going to have to settle for bad reasons.
 

Smoke

Done here.
Well, all this is a topic for another thread, but suffice it to say your understanding of Christianity is so far removed from the real thing as to be a different religion entirely.
Maybe, or maybe you're just stuck so deep in Evangelical Christianity that you can't even get a realistic view of that particular form of Christianity, much less the more authentic forms of Christianity.
 

Hope

Princesinha
Maybe, or maybe you're just stuck so deep in Evangelical Christianity that you can't even get a realistic view of that particular form of Christianity, much less the more authentic forms of Christianity.

I'm just happy to know Jesus Christ, that's all. He's as authentic as you can get. Don't need to bother with all that superficial "religious stuff." :D

So if I'm "stuck deep" then that's a good thing. ;)
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
There's no good reason. Nor is there any good reason why you should only have sex with somebody you're truly in love with, or why having sex with somebody you don't have a commitment to would harm your relationship with somebody you committed to later. They just have these rules, and there's no good reason for them, so if you want an explanation you're going to have to settle for bad reasons.
I figured. Afterall, two people can not be married and love each other much more deeply than two people who are married. Marriage is just a piece of paper, the feelings should already be there.
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
Are you seriously suggesting that "true intimacy" cannot be established without vows?
Yes.... but it is not the mere action of reciting "vows".... it is the total surrender of self and complete love for another culminating in "vows" that I believe is the only way to "true intimacy".... anything else is a mere shadow of what could be.... however pleasurable it may seem to some.
 

love

tri-polar optimist
Our sexual desires are one of the strongest we possess, and it is not limited to gender.
I know that some cringe at the thought of a female having these desires yet celebrate when a man sows his seed. But man gets his just when he peaks at 18 and the woman peaks at 35.
If you men have a taste for the young ones you had better keep them covered up.
Love, sex, commitment, procreation is one the most beautiful gifts we have yet humans in their carnal desires can make it ugly. We must teach our young the rules even if we didn't follow them.
 

Smoke

Done here.
Yes.... but it is not the mere action of reciting "vows".... it is the total surrender of self and complete love for another culminating in "vows" that I believe is the only way to "true intimacy".... anything else is a mere shadow of what could be.... however pleasurable it may seem to some.
But sometimes true intimacy and total surrender and complete love isn't what you're after. Sometimes you just want sex. Or you might even love a person and want intimacy, but not the BIG, all-or-nothing, this is THE ONE kind of intimacy. There's nothing wrong with that.

As for vows, Jesus said not to make them. ;)
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
But sometimes true intimacy and total surrender and complete love isn't what you're after.
Very true.... every one of us is a sinner.
Sometimes you just want sex. Or you might even love a person and want intimacy, but not the BIG, all-or-nothing, this is THE ONE kind of intimacy. There's nothing wrong with that.
I respect your opinion but would have to say that it is "wrong" to squander our soul/our being on anything less than perfection.
As for vows, Jesus said not to make them.
Ummm... not quite.
 

Hope

Princesinha
Yes.... but it is not the mere action of reciting "vows".... it is the total surrender of self and complete love for another culminating in "vows" that I believe is the only way to "true intimacy".... anything else is a mere shadow of what could be.... however pleasurable it may seem to some.

Thank you, Scott. You articulated perfectly what I could not. :)
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
Polls consistently show that about 90% of Americans engage in premarital sex. The figures might actually be higher for some European countries. Given that so many people engage in premarital sex, would it not be wise to structure teen sexuality education around the premise that at some point in their lives, most teens will engage in premarital sex, and prepare them for that eventuality by emphasizing the responsible use of condoms, etc.?

I'm of the mindset that it's careless NOT to offer youth sexual education courses that emphasize the importance of safe(r) sexual methods and contraception but I feel it would be completely unacceptable not to touch on the pros of abstaining from sex until one is physically, financially and mentally prepared for it.

I'm a Christian who isn't in opposition to churches offering honest classes and lectures on sex...not the sugar-coated "Save Yourself" speeches. I believe that Christians should abstain before marriage but in a an incredibly sexual society...I think it's important to be honest with youth. They will be faced with temptations, probably moreso than when their folks were their age. I think skirting the issue is horrid, especially when Church leaders have such an important and often positive impact on the lives of the youth in their congregations.

Kids ARE being taught safe(r) and more responsible methods of engaging in sexual activity but where are the lessons that touch on deeper issues that youth (that ANYONE) need to consider before becoming sexually active? I think these issues should take the spotlight and they don't.

I believe we fail our youth by giving them the greenlight to do whatever the heck they want to do.

Teaching a group of kids how to use a condom is great but if you aren't expressing to the same group of kids that sex #1) Isn't a High School Requirement and #2) Often complicates the lives of people who can't handle the consequences...then what are you doing? You're giving the greenlight for girls and boys to practice what they've learned!

Abstainence-only education isn't practical but neither is "safe(r) sex only" education and that's totally what I got in school.
 

Mercy Not Sacrifice

Well-Known Member
So then, go for the compromise of Comprehensive Sex Ed: Abstinence is the ideal, but if that doesn't work out, here is how to explore sexuality safely. And contrary to what the Religious Right would have us think, it can be done.
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
Even married, even if you do everything "right," you're still bound to end up with something less than perfection.
Yep... we are only perfect in heaven.... but it does not mean that we can't, on this earth, strive to be perfect "as our heavenly Father is perfect".... to try for anything less demeans us as human beings.

Thanks for the question.
S
 
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