Pork prohibited not only for muslims

[Harmonious]

My view on this is that I don't think as many people would have tried to demonstrate why eating any specific animal is particularly harmful if it hadn't been forbidden from consumption in their belief system(s). In other words, I think that at least some of these arguments are ad hocs to support an already-established viewpoint.

Nicely said.

 

[Super Universe]

Because every Jew is capable of having a personal relationship with our Creator, and all else that God is. The power of the leadership is to settle disputes, and to make sure that we have our teachers.

It is at this point that you are spouting your conjecture as fact, more or less dismissing any value that might have been gained from millennia of tradition, and everything else that Torah is to the Jews.

No one said you had to believe in our faith. But I'm not going to let you try to invalidate mine by dint of starting to explain it by saying "Here's what happened..."

And how would you know? Have you actually studied the laws? Or are you parroting back something you might have read about them?

God's laws are not just physical. Doing them is indeed physical, but the ramifications are all spiritual.

Those are details that are mentioned in the Oral Tradition, which you don't acknowledge, so you really wouldn't know about that.

You don't know about the laws and their details (which, I should add, are only highlighted but not detailed in the Pentateuch). Details concerning who, what, where, not as often why, when, how, how much, and in what circumstances, if there are extenuating circumstances, if things are simply not possible what are the next best options...

These things are NOT listed anywhere in the Pentateuch, and the only place they WOULD be is the Oral Law. That you haven't deigned to acknowledge.

That is your right, as it is my right not to validate your opinion.

What? :areyoucra

The flood happened when Noah was alive. There WERE no Jews yet. There was no Torah given yet. There was no commandment to observe the Sabbath yet. There were six laws, seven when Noah and his family left the Ark.

The Flood has nothing at ALL to do with observing the Sabbath.

And how would you know?

You are making things up, now. When God Himself listed punishments for failure to adhere to His laws, saying that "no punishment is needed," or saying that "you would not be able to violate it" means that you are calling God a liar.

Interesting.

It was the only national Temple, the nation being a theocratic Israel. The shuls that are in existence now do not serve the same function as the one in Jerusalem.


It is clear from the rest of this post that it doesn't really matter WHAT I say. Your mind is made up, and I would only confuse you with the facts about what and how my belief system works. You have already determined that you know what it is and how it works, despite the fact that you don't really know anything.

Since it is clear that you are going to ignore the crux of anything I say, as you have determined that you know everything already, I have decided that I am going to Ignore you.

You are now officially on my Ignore List. If I respond to you, it isn't for your benefit, as I don't think you really care, anyway. It would be because I feel that other people participating in the thread might benefit from a response.

Every "Jew" is capable of having a personal relationship with our Creator? How about everyone else?

I am dismissing any value that might have been gained from millenia of tradition and everything else that the Torah is to the Jews? Jews, jews, jews, jews, a bit full of oneself, aren't you? It's very self evident why you gave yourselves the title of Gods "chosen" people. Every group of humans has traditions, yours are not superior.

How would I know the physical laws are not unbreakable? Uh, physics maybe...

God's laws are not just physical? Oh, right, ancient man, who hadn't even invented the wheel yet, wrote down God's real rules.

The point about "no flood needed" is that if God wanted something it would be, there wouldn't be any asking and hoping it would happen, it would automatically be that way. The idea that floods, storms, plagues, or whatever come from an angry and jealous God is because ignorant humans didn't understand the real cause of these events.

How would I know? A little bird told me. How do you not know?

I'm making things up? Sheesh, that's the pot calling the kettle black. God is a jealous God. God wants you to pay a ransom upon the census. Moses brought forth water from the rock. God wants women to keep quiet and obey the man (actually, that one I kind of like). All human inventions.

God Himself listed punishments for failure to adhere to His laws? No, a Jew who wanted to bring his people in line came up with them.

I'm not calling God a liar. Your book does not represent God, it represents you.

Matter and energy were created by God, the universe was created by God, but the one thing that was not created by God is YOUR book yet you use that to study Him and ignore the universe. Then you shall be like a blind person even though you have eyes.

You would only confuse me with facts? Hehe... Your facts aren't facts at all, they're tradition, a tradition where the people chose the golden calf over God because the real God didn't fit their "tradition". Then when God sent His Son they killed Him because He didn't fit their requirements to be a Messiah.

The universe is not yours, it never was in the past, it never will be in the future.


　

 

[Harmonious]

Every "Jew" is capable of having a personal relationship with our Creator? How about everyone else?　

Of course everyone is capable of having a relationship with our Creator.

I was responding to the idea that "Jewish leadership" vs. individual commandments given to the entire Jewish people.

And if this seems to be a "Jewish centered" position, it is only because Jews believe that the 613 commandments were only given to the Jews, as a community. And it can only be fulfilled in its entirety when all the Jews live in Israel, when there is a Jewish king from the House of Israel presiding, when the Temple is standing (after it was built the first time, replacing the Tabernacle) in Jerusalem, on the Temple Mount.

There are certain commandments that have been completed, such as the conquest commands, and they are not available to be done today. There are other commandments that will have no hold, as they refer to dealing with a situation that involve slavery. It is not a commandment to have slaves, but rather IF there is slavery, there is a whole host of commandments that regulate this state of affairs.

If there is no slavery, obviously those commandments do not apply.

And this is true for other commandments. Most of the ongoing commandments require appropriate time, place, circumstance, and who, what, where, why, when, and of course how, how much, and what happens in extenuating circumstances. For example: Not every person can fulfill every commandment, as some are only given to Cohanim, some are given only to Levi'im, some are given only to the rest of the Jews. Some are given only to men, some are given only to women. Some are given only to married people. Some are only given to people who have family members who are dead. And that is only describing some of the "who".

But with regards to non-Jews, according to my belief system, of COURSE people can have a relationship with God. God gave seven laws to Noah, but there are more comprehensive ways of looking at these lists, wherein the 7 become, effectively, 66.

I can give a list, if anyone is interested, or I can give a source where people could look them up, if they so choose.

 

[Jehovah'sWitness]

Christians believe God declared all foods clean in Acts


Acts:10
9 About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10 He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11 He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12 It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds. 13 Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”
14 “Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”
15 The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”
16 This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.

This clearly shows that christians are allowed to eat foods that were prohibited by the mosaic law

Also at Acts chapter 15 verse 19 & 20 we are told

"Hence my decision is not to trouble those from the nations who are turning to God, but to write them to abstain from things polluted by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. "

Showing that these are the vital things to avoid

 

[Dirty Penguin]

This clearly shows that christians are allowed to eat foods that were prohibited by the mosaic law

Acts 10 has nothing to do with one being able to eat pork.

Peter simply was having a "dream"....where he killed and ate the unlawful foods. There's no indication tat when he woke up he went off to get him a BLT.....

 

[Jehovah'sWitness]

Other than the fact that in this "dream"
"Do not call anything impure that God has made clean"
showing that God had now classed these things as clean

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Other than the fact that in this "dream"
"Do not call anything impure that God has made clean"
showing that God had now classed these things as clean

The fact remains...it was a dream. Additionally noting in Acts 10 suggest that one is permitted to eat pork. Leviticus 11:7 is explicit in not eating "the pig".

Acts 10 talks about beast with four feet. Pigs do not have feet. Acts 10 also describes "wild beast" (therion) which is ambiguous and can mean almost anything. I don't think pigs fit the bill of being wild beast during biblical times. It also appears the pig was more of a herded animal during that time.

And since there is no mention of various aquatic animals in Acts 10 I assume it would be safe to say that since they're not amongst the animals "God" made clean in the dream then by Jewish Law are to remain forbidden...

 

[Rainbow Mage]

I am not sure why this is still debated. Paul said that keeping kosher is an individual choice, not to judge on it, and not to offend your fellow Christian who does keep it.

I agree with Paul's ruling on this. The reason that most Christians do not call any food unclean of itself is because it has no relevance to spiritual uncleanliness.

Jesus said what goes in the mouth passes out in the draught.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I am not sure why this is still debated. Paul said that keeping kosher is an individual choice, not to judge on it, and not to offend your fellow Christian who does keep it.

Can you provide context because I get the sense Paul was speaking to gentiles and not Jews.

I agree with Paul's ruling on this. The reason that most Christians do not call any food unclean of itself is because it has no relevance to spiritual uncleanliness.

So you would take Paul's word over your very own Yeshua who told his followers to keep to the law as they would remain in effect until heaven and Earth were no more and that anyone teaching contrary to this would be least in the kingdom of heaven....you sure you're taking Paul's ruling over Yeshua's?

Jesus said what goes in the mouth passes out in the draught.

It had absolutely nothing to do with forbidden food as laid out in Leviticus. It was about washing ones hands before a meal.

 

[Jehovah'sWitness]

The fact remains...it was a dream. Additionally noting in Acts 10 suggest that one is permitted to eat pork. Leviticus 11:7 is explicit in not eating "the pig".

Okay lets ignore Acts 10 then, I completely agree that under the law eating "the pig" was definitely a big NO

But Ephesians 2:15*states "By means of his(Jesus) flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, that he might create the two peoples in union with himself into one new man and make peace"

So Christians were no longer under the burden of the law after Jesus death, im not saying the Hebrew scriptures carry no importance, we are still to apply the principles from the law, but we are not under command to obey all laws

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Can you provide context because I get the sense Paul was speaking to gentiles and not Jews.




So you would take Paul's word over your very own Yeshua who told his followers to keep to the law as they would remain in effect until heaven and Earth were no more and that anyone teaching contrary to this would be least in the kingdom of heaven....you sure you're taking Paul's ruling over Yeshua's?




It had absolutely nothing to do with forbidden food as laid out in Leviticus. It was about washing ones hands before a meal.

So you admit that non-Jews are not required to keep kosher?

And its not taking Paul's word over Yeshua's because the two don't disagree. There is more then just the law of Moses in the NT. Jesus taught regarding the old Jewish law- one does not put old wine into new wineskins or it spoils, neither does one sew an old patch into a new garment because it creates a tear

 

[silenceinmotion]

Lol, Paul explicitly states that the Old Law is the yoke of slavery which Jesus freed us from. You can eat all the pork you want.

Thread debunked.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

So you admit that non-Jews are not required to keep kosher?

Yes. Even Jews admit this. It's important to make the distinction that non-jews are hardly required to keep to the law. Yeshua was a jew and specifically told the jews, whom he was sent to, to uphold the law.

And its not taking Paul's word over Yeshua's because the two don't disagree.

If Paul says not to follow the law and Yeshua says you must then there is disagreement.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Okay lets ignore Acts 10 then, I completely agree that under the law eating "the pig" was definitely a big NO

But Ephesians 2:15*states "By means of his(Jesus) flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, that he might create the two peoples in union with himself into one new man and make peace"

So Christians were no longer under the burden of the law after Jesus death, im not saying the Hebrew scriptures carry no importance, we are still to apply the principles from the law, but we are not under command to obey all laws

Again, not a problem if we're clearly making the clarification that Paul went to the gentiles while Yeshua, being a Jew, did not. Yeshua explicitly said to a Jewish crowd that the law must be upheld. If Paul says otherwise then then it's disagreement but that can be acceptable since gentiles weren't part of the Jewish covenant.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Lol, Paul explicitly states that the Old Law is the yoke of slavery which Jesus freed us from. You can eat all the pork you want.

Thread debunked.

Yeshua said otherwise.....

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Yes. Even Jews admit this. It's important to make the distinction that non-jews are hardly required to keep to the law. Yeshua was a jew and specifically told the jews, whom he was sent to, to uphold the law.




If Paul says not to follow the law and Yeshua says you must then there is disagreement.

You conveniently ignored the part of my post about the law, but that's ok...

 

[Dirty Penguin]

You conveniently ignored the part of my post about the law, but that's ok...

No I didn't but it helps when it's read in context. You provided none.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Lol, Paul explicitly states that the Old Law is the yoke of slavery which Jesus freed us from. You can eat all the pork you want.

Thread debunked.

Came to free Jews from, but yes. Non-Jews are fortunate to have never been under the curse of the law

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Came to free Jews from, but yes. Non-Jews are fortunate to have never been under the curse of the law

So wait a minute...let me get this straight.....

You believe..

1.) Yeshua came to free the Jews from.....? (the law)
2.) You also believe the law is a curse?

 

[Jehovah'sWitness]

Again, not a problem if we're clearly making the clarification that Paul went to the gentiles while Yeshua, being a Jew, did not. Yeshua explicitly said to a Jewish crowd that the law must be upheld. If Paul says otherwise then then it's disagreement but that can be acceptable since gentiles weren't part of the Jewish covenant.

so your saying that gentiles can eat pork but jewish christians cant?