Pork prohibited not only for muslims

[FearGod]

possibly because in Arabia in those days there was no 'butter flavouring' and no micowaves

they lived in those days in Arabia on dates and camel milk and lamb and goat

there were no pigs in the desert of Arabia

There were no pigs and it was mentioned in the quran.

 

[Quagmire]

you didn't get my point,in other words,
can you change the picture of pig as dirty and lazy animal by giving it a good food,

Not sure what you mean by "change the picture of a pig". Thought we were talking about whether or not their meat is less healthy than other meats.

same thing similar with dogs,can you eat dogs,even though that you know it's meat is good and clean.talking about loathsome.

So you're saying that specific cultural biases are what should dictate whether or not an animals flesh is considered unclean? I thought your whole point was that even aside from those cultural biases pork shouldn't be eaten, hence the title: "Pork prohibited not only for muslims".

 

[Super Universe]

According to YOUR belief system, perhaps.

However, there are those of us who follow those teachings who are very much of the mind those "old Jewish teachings" are very much representative of God's wishes, and that the Jewish leaders you speak about were only conveying the teachings of God's wishes.

Don't foist YOUR religious beliefs on anyone more than you appreciate being told what you can't eat, for primarily religious reasons.

Do you stone to death those who violate the Sabbath?

Do you stone to death those who commit adultery?

Do you pay a ransom on the census? How does your Rabbi deliver the money to God?

Don't foist my beliefs on anyone? Isn't that what you're doing?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I would have said that Jesus prayed 3 time a day, like other Jews...

Yea...this is what I've heard as well....

 

[Harmonious]

Do you stone to death those who violate the Sabbath?

Do you stone to death those who commit adultery?

Are you aware of something called "due process"? Without the Sanhedrin sitting in the Court of Hewn Stone in the Temple, capital cases cannot even be tried.

There was an explanation of the details on what such a process might be given in Oral Law, and the concept of the death penalty is NEVER as easy to carry out as it was for the dude in the desert who picked up sticks on Shabbat in Exodus.

Or, are you thinking that God actually commanded mob rule when He gave those laws?

Do you honestly believe that God has so little mercy as to have the Jews go for a thousand years before "correcting" such behavior?

Do you pay a ransom on the census?

Better question - do I live in Israel, so am I subjected to said census? Details, details, details...

There is a time, place, and method for all these things.

How does your Rabbi deliver the money to God?

Seriously?

No, seriously?

There are various and sundry charities shuls - including mine - pay for with money from donations given throughout the year.

I just can't believe you actually asked that.

Don't foist my beliefs on anyone? Isn't that what you're doing?

No.

Unlike you, I am stating what my belief is. I'm not judging your faith harshly because, well... "My religion is better. Nah, nah, froo, froo. And I've got the books to prove it."

At least, that's what you are saying sounds like to me.

 

[FearGod]

Not sure what you mean by "change the picture of a pig". Thought we were talking about whether or not their meat is less healthy than other meats.

i mean every one know that pig is a dirty animal,if you want to insult some one,
you may say to him pig,but you will not say giraffe,or cow,except if he is fat.

So you're saying that specific cultural biases are what should dictate whether or not an animals flesh is considered unclean? I thought your whole point was that even aside from those cultural biases pork shouldn't be eaten, hence the title: "Pork prohibited not only for muslims".

For me,i feel disgusting from pork,not because of religion,but because of the image
which i have on that animal as known to be dirty,we can't change this fact even though that
you feed it a pasteurized foods.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

But the problem wasn't caused by popcorn but by the flavouring chemicals,
i don't know why you insist to say popcorn.

Oh... so it's chemical flavouring, not popcorn, that's forbidden by the Quran? Please show me the verse.

 

[FearGod]

Oh... so it's chemical flavouring, not popcorn, that's forbidden by the Quran? Please show me the verse.

That is irrelevant,also the quran should mention the drugs and its side effects with
it's uses and best dose to use.

 

[Super Universe]

Are you aware of something called "due process"? Without the Sanhedrin sitting in the Court of Hewn Stone in the Temple, capital cases cannot even be tried.

There was an explanation of the details on what such a process might be given in Oral Law, and the concept of the death penalty is NEVER as easy to carry out as it was for the dude in the desert who picked up sticks on Shabbat in Exodus.

Or, are you thinking that God actually commanded mob rule when He gave those laws?

Do you honestly believe that God has so little mercy as to have the Jews go for a thousand years before "correcting" such behavior?

Better question - do I live in Israel, so am I subjected to said census? Details, details, details...

There is a time, place, and method for all these things.

Seriously?

No, seriously?

There are various and sundry charities shuls - including mine - pay for with money from donations given throughout the year.

I just can't believe you actually asked that.

No.

Unlike you, I am stating what my belief is. I'm not judging your faith harshly because, well... "My religion is better. Nah, nah, froo, froo. And I've got the books to prove it."

At least, that's what you are saying sounds like to me.

So, the Jewish leadership interpreted the Ten Commandments in a way that put the power into the hands of the Jewish leadership.

I don't think God commanded mob rule, I think those laws are Moses Jewish version of Hammurabi's laws. One of Hammurabi's laws was an eye for an eye, sound familiar?

So, you've interpreted one of God's rules so you don't have to pay the temple tax? How convenient for you?

Do I think that God has so little mercy as to have the Jews go for thousands of years before "correcting" such behavior? What I think is that human's have been trying to figure out God since our beginning. We've received revelation throughout and we're still receiving it. The men who wrote the bible were ignorant of the world, by today's standards. They were afraid of comets. They knew not the cause of earthquakes, disease, floods, storms, drought, so they naturally blamed every unknown event on God. They wrote temple policy books that were never meant to become the "Word of God".

Too many religious people think their religion is the peak when it's simply one step on an infinite ladder.

Oh, so I'm not stating what my belief is, I'm foisting, while you are only "stating".

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That is irrelevant,also the quran should mention the drugs and its side effects with
it's uses and best dose to use.

You facepalm, but why would it be unreasonable to think that God might do that? He is God, right?

So the Quran doesn't forbid chemical flavourings? But I thought your whole argument here was that God forbade pork because it's harmful... but he didn't forbid other harmful things? This seems rather inconsistent, don't you think?

Why would he forbid pork, but not other things that are just as bad or worse? I mean, think how much human suffering and death could have been avoided if he told us to avoid asbestos, for instance. If God's in the business of warning us of harmful things, then why wouldn't he warn us about that?

 

[Harmonious]

So, the Jewish leadership interpreted the Ten Commandments in a way that put the power into the hands of the Jewish leadership.

First of all, there are 613 commandments.

Second of all, I think you missed Deuteronomy 17:8-11, where GOD put the power in the hands of the Jewish leadership.

8. If a matter eludes you in judgment, between blood and blood, between judgment and judgment, or between lesion and lesion, words of dispute in your cities, then you shall rise and go up to the place the Lord, your God, chooses.

9. And you shall come to the Levitic kohanim and to the judge who will be in those days, and you shall inquire, and they will tell you the words of judgment.

10. And you shall do according to the word they tell you, from the place the Lord will choose, and you shall observe to do according to all they instruct you.

11. According to the law they instruct you and according to the judgment they say to you, you shall do; you shall not divert from the word they tell you, either right or left.

If YOU believe that Deuteronomy was Divinely given, then you would be missing something if you left these verses out, to say that Jewish teachers decided to take all that power for themselves.

If you don't believe in Tanach, then it doesn't matter.

But since you seem to be Christian, it occurs to me that you DO believe that at least some of this once had meaning. Unless you believe that God lied when He instructed these verses.

I don't think God commanded mob rule, I think those laws are Moses Jewish version of Hammurabi's laws. One of Hammurabi's laws was an eye for an eye, sound familiar?

Yup.

But you know... The Torah is pretty comprehensive. I believe that God actually gave all of it to the Jews.

If you like to think that Moses played "cut and paste" with Hammurabil's law code, that is entirely up to you.

So, you've interpreted one of God's rules so you don't have to pay the temple tax? How convenient for you?

Pay the temple tax to who? There is no Temple to pay it to.

You know... God commanded Jews to LIVE by the laws, not to commit the impossible.

If a commandment is impossible to follow, we are exempt from it. Or, are you so into your beliefs that "the Torah is impossible, so we need Jesus to save us from ourselves" that you can't believe that when God gave the Law in the first place, it was actually possible to be lived by?

Do I think that God has so little mercy as to have the Jews go for thousands of years before "correcting" such behavior? What I think is that human's have been trying to figure out God since our beginning. We've received revelation throughout and we're still receiving it. The men who wrote the bible were ignorant of the world, by today's standards. They were afraid of comets.

Perhaps many ancient people were. Where do you get the idea that people of the Bible were?

They knew not the cause of earthquakes, disease, floods, storms, drought, so they naturally blamed every unknown event on God.

God IS the source of all things, including physics and geological patterns. So, I'm not sure what your beef is.

They wrote temple policy books that were never meant to become the "Word of God".

Interesting.

You get your information from Dan Brown? He has that kind of historical accuracy about the Temple, too.

Too many religious people think their religion is the peak when it's simply one step on an infinite ladder.

Possible. We get a lot of those around here.

Oh, so I'm not stating what my belief is, I'm foisting, while you are only "stating".

Yup.

See, you have probably figured out by now that I am Jewish, and not Christian.

I would not simply come from left field and tell you that Jesus was an evil apostate who was arrogant and cruel to his followers, and worse to everyone else.

Even if I believed it, I don't feel the need to antagonize Christians, as I am secure enough in my beliefs that I don't have to put anyone down to acknowledge my own beliefs in my heart and mind.

So yes, you are preaching anti-Judaism, while I am only stating my beliefs.

 

[Super Universe]

First of all, there are 613 commandments.

Second of all, I think you missed Deuteronomy 17:8-11, where GOD put the power in the hands of the Jewish leadership.

8. If a matter eludes you in judgment, between blood and blood, between judgment and judgment, or between lesion and lesion, words of dispute in your cities, then you shall rise and go up to the place the Lord, your God, chooses.

9. And you shall come to the Levitic kohanim and to the judge who will be in those days, and you shall inquire, and they will tell you the words of judgment.

10. And you shall do according to the word they tell you, from the place the Lord will choose, and you shall observe to do according to all they instruct you.

11. According to the law they instruct you and according to the judgment they say to you, you shall do; you shall not divert from the word they tell you, either right or left.

If YOU believe that Deuteronomy was Divinely given, then you would be missing something if you left these verses out, to say that Jewish teachers decided to take all that power for themselves.

If you don't believe in Tanach, then it doesn't matter.

But since you seem to be Christian, it occurs to me that you DO believe that at least some of this once had meaning. Unless you believe that God lied when He instructed these verses.

Yup.

But you know... The Torah is pretty comprehensive. I believe that God actually gave all of it to the Jews.

If you like to think that Moses played "cut and paste" with Hammurabil's law code, that is entirely up to you.

Pay the temple tax to who? There is no Temple to pay it to.

You know... God commanded Jews to LIVE by the laws, not to commit the impossible.

If a commandment is impossible to follow, we are exempt from it. Or, are you so into your beliefs that "the Torah is impossible, so we need Jesus to save us from ourselves" that you can't believe that when God gave the Law in the first place, it was actually possible to be lived by?

Perhaps many ancient people were. Where do you get the idea that people of the Bible were?

God IS the source of all things, including physics and geological patterns. So, I'm not sure what your beef is.

Interesting.

You get your information from Dan Brown? He has that kind of historical accuracy about the Temple, too.

Possible. We get a lot of those around here.

Yup.

See, you have probably figured out by now that I am Jewish, and not Christian.

I would not simply come from left field and tell you that Jesus was an evil apostate who was arrogant and cruel to his followers, and worse to everyone else.

Even if I believed it, I don't feel the need to antagonize Christians, as I am secure enough in my beliefs that I don't have to put anyone down to acknowledge my own beliefs in my heart and mind.

So yes, you are preaching anti-Judaism, while I am only stating my beliefs.

If God put the power into the hands of the Jewish leadership then why did He give you commandments?

Here's what happened, when writing became possible the Jewish leaders began to write down their culture. Back then culture and religion were the same thing. The ancient people had no understanding of the cause of natural events so they blamed everything on God. As thousands of years passed people saw these old books as the belief's of their forefathers, something to be respected by all. So, they promoted these old books all the way up to being the "Word of God".

God's laws are the physical laws and they are unbreakable. If He really wanted you to obey the Sabbath, you would, no flood needed, no punishment needed, you would not be able to violate it.

It is entirely up to me. Do I think that Moses played cut and paste with Hammurabi's law code? I think that people have been borrowing ideas from other cultures since the beginning.

There is no temple tax to pay to? Oh, so today there are no Jewish Temple's? Only the first one counted, as far as the bible is concerned? So then nothing written in the Old Testament is God's word, or, even if it is you don't have to really abide by it if some Rabbi say's you don't?

I don't think you need Jesus at all. I think you are exactly as you are supposed to be and will always be that way. Every tree need not grow.

Where do I get the idea that people of the bible were ignorant? Study tribal cultures, it becomes plain as day. They blame everything unknown on ghosts and spirits. Someone gets sick because they drink from dirty pools of water and the tribe thinks a neighboring tribe must have put a curse on them.

Plus I know when diseases were discovered. I know when plate tectonics was discovered. I know when the cause of storms was discovered. I know the real reason behind comets, eclipses, bright temporary lights in the sky, meteors otherwise known as "fireballs from heaven". All were discovered by science from the late 1800's to the 1950's. The one great achievement of the Jews was to move primitive humans away from the idea of many gods, many spirits, to the idea of one God but they still could not explain disease, earthquakes, storms, drought, so they continued to believe that these were caused by God.

God is the source of all things? God is the ORIGINAL source of creation but people always have to blame others, even though they are the ones who decided to build a home in a flood plain.

I don't know Dan Brown.

As for me preaching anti-Judaism, I'm anti-religion, against ALL religion, because religion is a means of control. God gave us free will and religious people have done everything they can to take it away and impose rules upon us.

I am a Christian but I define it as someone who does their best to follow the teachings of Christ, not one who follows the words of Moses or even the writings of John.

 

[Looncall]

i mean every one know that pig is a dirty animal,if you want to insult some one,
you may say to him pig,but you will not say giraffe,or cow,except if he is fat.



For me,i feel disgusting from pork,not because of religion,but because of the image
which i have on that animal as known to be dirty,we can't change this fact even though that
you feed it a pasteurized foods.

Actually, if given the chance, pigs are cleanly animals. There is a lot of information here:

Woolshed 1: Animal behaviour and welfare: Pigs Part 1

Your outlook seems to be tainted by cultural and religious taboos.

 

[helpmeplease]

i mean every one know that pig is a dirty animal,if you want to insult some one,
you may say to him pig,but you will not say giraffe,or cow,except if he is fat.



For me,i feel disgusting from pork,not because of religion,but because of the image
which i have on that animal as known to be dirty,we can't change this fact even though that
you feed it a pasteurized foods.

You have obviously never eaten pork and are therefore speaking from a position of ignorance, well as far as I'm concerned. But ignorance is the haven of the religious.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

You have obviously never eaten pork and are therefore speaking from a position of ignorance, well as far as I'm concerned. But ignorance is the haven of the religious.

This right here seems to sum up the whole thread.....:yes:

 

[Debater Slayer]

But ignorance is the haven of the religious.

I find this statement to be as stereotypical as "nonreligious people are all immoral". Over-generalizations don't really tend to be accurate.

 

[helpmeplease]

I find this statement to be as stereotypical as "nonreligious people are all immoral". Over-generalizations don't really tend to be accurate.

Agreed, I should have said in my opinion. But then you didn't comment on the substance of the post.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Agreed, I should have said in my opinion. But then you didn't comment on the substance of the post.

My view on this is that I don't think as many people would have tried to demonstrate why eating any specific animal is particularly harmful if it hadn't been forbidden from consumption in their belief system(s). In other words, I think that at least some of these arguments are ad hocs to support an already-established viewpoint.

 

[helpmeplease]

My view on this is that I don't think as many people would have tried to demonstrate why eating any specific animal is particularly harmful if it hadn't been forbidden from consumption in their belief system(s). In other words, I think that at least some of these arguments are ad hocs to support an already-established viewpoint.

:bow::bow::bow:
Thankyou, my apologies.

 

[Harmonious]

If God put the power into the hands of the Jewish leadership then why did He give you commandments?

Because every Jew is capable of having a personal relationship with our Creator, and all else that God is. The power of the leadership is to settle disputes, and to make sure that we have our teachers.

Here's what happened,...

It is at this point that you are spouting your conjecture as fact, more or less dismissing any value that might have been gained from millennia of tradition, and everything else that Torah is to the Jews.

No one said you had to believe in our faith. But I'm not going to let you try to invalidate mine by dint of starting to explain it by saying "Here's what happened..."

God's laws are the physical laws and they are unbreakable.

And how would you know? Have you actually studied the laws? Or are you parroting back something you might have read about them?

God's laws are not just physical. Doing them is indeed physical, but the ramifications are all spiritual.

Those are details that are mentioned in the Oral Tradition, which you don't acknowledge, so you really wouldn't know about that.

You don't know about the laws and their details (which, I should add, are only highlighted but not detailed in the Pentateuch). Details concerning who, what, where, not as often why, when, how, how much, and in what circumstances, if there are extenuating circumstances, if things are simply not possible what are the next best options...

These things are NOT listed anywhere in the Pentateuch, and the only place they WOULD be is the Oral Law. That you haven't deigned to acknowledge.

That is your right, as it is my right not to validate your opinion.

If He really wanted you to obey the Sabbath, you would, no flood needed,

What? :areyoucra

The flood happened when Noah was alive. There WERE no Jews yet. There was no Torah given yet. There was no commandment to observe the Sabbath yet. There were six laws, seven when Noah and his family left the Ark.

The Flood has nothing at ALL to do with observing the Sabbath.

no punishment needed, you would not be able to violate it.

And how would you know?

You are making things up, now. When God Himself listed punishments for failure to adhere to His laws, saying that "no punishment is needed," or saying that "you would not be able to violate it" means that you are calling God a liar.

Interesting.

There is no temple tax to pay to? Oh, so today there are no Jewish Temple's? Only the first one counted, as far as the bible is concerned?

It was the only national Temple, the nation being a theocratic Israel. The shuls that are in existence now do not serve the same function as the one in Jerusalem.

So then nothing written in the Old Testament is God's word, or, even if it is you don't have to really abide by it if some Rabbi say's you don't?

I don't think you need Jesus at all. I think you are exactly as you are supposed to be and will always be that way. Every tree need not grow. ...

As for me preaching anti-Judaism, I'm anti-religion, against ALL religion, because religion is a means of control. God gave us free will and religious people have done everything they can to take it away and impose rules upon us.

I am a Christian but I define it as someone who does their best to follow the teachings of Christ, not one who follows the words of Moses or even the writings of John.

It is clear from the rest of this post that it doesn't really matter WHAT I say. Your mind is made up, and I would only confuse you with the facts about what and how my belief system works. You have already determined that you know what it is and how it works, despite the fact that you don't really know anything.

Since it is clear that you are going to ignore the crux of anything I say, as you have determined that you know everything already, I have decided that I am going to Ignore you.

You are now officially on my Ignore List. If I respond to you, it isn't for your benefit, as I don't think you really care, anyway. It would be because I feel that other people participating in the thread might benefit from a response.