New research shows we have underestimated both the scope and the scale of animal intelligence

[Alceste]

FATHERHEATHEN!!!

Why didn't I think of that! Over the last thirty years, a group of crows has developed a whole new culture on the coast here. They have taken foreshore scavenging to a new level entirely by picking up mussels and whelks, flying up over the concrete promenade and dropping them, so that hey smash open. Their offspring have copied,and now there is a huge crow community thriving on shellfish!

It goes further than that! The common and herring gulls have been watching all this, and now they have started, but they don't seem as bright, because they still droptheir shellfish at random, some hitting stones and breaking, some not, whereas the crows get it right every time.

My old man was a part-time gamekeeper, so I used to shoot vermin for him. It always amazed me how crows would fly past in range when I did not have a gun, so I would hide it under clothing and appear as if sweeping or digging. That worked for about a week, after which crows did not fly past me at all, although they carried on, as before, with everybody else.

Ain't crows amazing?

They are! Some scientist I heard on quirks and quarks was talking about bird intelligence. They don't quite understand how it works but the fascinating thing about it is that it is a separate evolutionary stream to mammal intelligence, but still pretty freaking intelligent.

 

[WyattDerp]

after watching the crow videos and listening to "bird walk", youtube recommended this to me

[youtube]F8L4KNrPEs0[/youtube]
Genius Bird - YouTube

So much for "animals only have instinct"... unless you consider "find intelligent solutions to new problems" an "instinct", which just turns it into a meaningless catch-all word.

 

[BSM1]

I think most of you "animals are our children" crowd have missed the point. The question is not whether animals have intelligence, can learn and adapt to situations, or can display anthropomorphic behavior to make some believe that Rover really loves you; the question is whether animals have a sense of their own existence. Do animals reason, plan for the future, understand life and death, have emotions like humans. There is no proof that animals have any of these qualities. That's the question. As far as animal intelligence, I had an old farmer tell me how he hunted crows in his cornfield. He said two guys needed to walk into the field carrying shotguns. The crows would immediately fly off. After about ten minutes one guy would get up and leave the field. The crows would come back and the other guy started blasting away. 'Because," the old man told me, "crows are smart. They just can't count." Are animals smart and resourceful? Absolutely. Do animals reason things out? Absolutely no proof.

 

[oldbadger]

I think most of you "animals are our children" crowd have missed the point. The question is not whether animals have intelligence, can learn and adapt to situations, or can display anthropomorphic behavior to make some believe that Rover really loves you; the question is whether animals have a sense of their own existence. Do animals reason, plan for the future, understand life and death, have emotions like humans. There is no proof that animals have any of these qualities. That's the question. As far as animal intelligence, I had an old farmer tell me how he hunted crows in his cornfield. He said two guys needed to walk into the field carrying shotguns. The crows would immediately fly off. After about ten minutes one guy would get up and leave the field. The crows would come back and the other guy started blasting away. 'Because," the old man told me, "crows are smart. They just can't count." Are animals smart and resourceful? Absolutely. Do animals reason things out? Absolutely no proof.

Hi again....... Two into the field..... then one out? Your old farmer acquaintance was lucky, because we had to send several people into a field, and then all but one out, for that to have affect, and it only lasted for one shot; after that it just got more difficult.

And I never cuddled a crow, so the 'animals are our children' proposal can't fly, well..... not like crows do, anyway!

I'll give you one point, which you have not made yourself. It is very unlikely that an an animal could look at the moon and wonder what might exist on the other side........ but that is not intelligence, rather 'a level of perception'.

Have you got an agenda here? Would life be more difficult for you if you accepted that animals can think, feel, love and consider? Do you eat meat? Is it ok to eat animals with your present mindset, but more difficult if you felt that they might have feelings like us?

Is this what the thread is really about?

 

[oldbadger]

They are! Some scientist I heard on quirks and quarks was talking about bird intelligence. They don't quite understand how it works but the fascinating thing about it is that it is a separate evolutionary stream to mammal intelligence, but still pretty freaking intelligent.

Cool.....! They say that birds evolved from dinosaurs, so, can you imagine what it would have been like to get lost in the woods when velociraptors were about? :run:

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I think most of you "animals are our children" crowd have missed the point. The question is not whether animals have intelligence, can learn and adapt to situations, or can display anthropomorphic behavior to make some believe that Rover really loves you; the question is whether animals have a sense of their own existence. Do animals reason, plan for the future, understand life and death, have emotions like humans. There is no proof that animals have any of these qualities. That's the question. As far as animal intelligence, I had an old farmer tell me how he hunted crows in his cornfield. He said two guys needed to walk into the field carrying shotguns. The crows would immediately fly off. After about ten minutes one guy would get up and leave the field. The crows would come back and the other guy started blasting away. 'Because," the old man told me, "crows are smart. They just can't count." Are animals smart and resourceful? Absolutely. Do animals reason things out? Absolutely no proof.

Because we have shown you many articles and videos demonstrating the awareness of animals, then do you believe you have your own awareness? The scientific community is leaning more-and-more towards humans and other animals not being so different, and as technology improves many things we used to think made us unique as humans we are finding make us more of the same. A science article with a group of scientist saying animals are aware, a video of a dog that knew it had done wrong, and a video of a crow reasoning to use multiple tools to solve a problem is what has been shown to you, and you are arguing against evidence that keeps being added to. Humans are animals, and personally I do not believe there are any real reasons that we should be that much more significantly different other animals. We may have different brains and experiences that shape our brains, but ultimately our nervous system did come from the same source so why shouldn't there be similarities, and even more to be shown yet? If humans really are special, I would say a part of it is to realize just how insignificant and utterly helpless we really are, so we build up an elaborate story to build our psychological defenses against a world that, for all of it's predictability, is very unpredictable and we convinced ourselves that we are far more unique and special than we actually are. And even our evolution is nothing more than being the victim of circumstance, so I see no reason to believe we are really that much more different. Of course we are of a much higher intelligence than most other animals, maybe all others but at times I really wonder, and our vocal cords, thumbs, and dextrous fingers have allowed for the creation of the many things that make us human, but I wouldn't be surprised if distant-future great apes look back at their descendants of apes that today use simple tools and compare the apes of today to our own homo habilis.

 

[Riverwolf]

I think most of you "animals are our children" crowd have missed the point. The question is not whether animals have intelligence, can learn and adapt to situations, or can display anthropomorphic behavior to make some believe that Rover really loves you; the question is whether animals have a sense of their own existence. Do animals reason, plan for the future, understand life and death, have emotions like humans. There is no proof that animals have any of these qualities. That's the question. As far as animal intelligence, I had an old farmer tell me how he hunted crows in his cornfield. He said two guys needed to walk into the field carrying shotguns. The crows would immediately fly off. After about ten minutes one guy would get up and leave the field. The crows would come back and the other guy started blasting away. 'Because," the old man told me, "crows are smart. They just can't count." Are animals smart and resourceful? Absolutely. Do animals reason things out? Absolutely no proof.

Not that such reasoning has anything to do with having a sense of self-existence.

Though, "emotions like humans" still makes no sense. Emotions are emotions.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Something more for consideration:
Using Xanax for Dogs With Anxiety Disorders - VetInfo

Xanax for dogs is often used to treat anxiety, post-traumatic stress disorder or the symptoms of extreme grief. While Xanax is often used to treat the symptoms of anxiety in humans, it's important not to treat your dog's anxiety with a Xanax prescription intended for human use. See your veterinarian for a canine prescription, and make sure that prescription is re-evaluated and renewed every six months.

So dogs even have moods, including grief.

 

[Ouroboros]

the question is whether animals have a sense of their own existence.

My understanding is yes some animals do have a sense of their own existence.

Do animals reason, plan for the future,

I think there are some experiments showing this too.

understand life and death,

Most definitely. The most compelling examples I've seen saw was the bonobo mom who lost her newborn.

have emotions like humans.

That's a bit more tricky. Yes, they do have emotions. Can we say they are exactly like humans? Not sure. They do show many emotions, and they might not understand what they're feeling, but they do show human like reactions to similar situations and experiences as we do.

The problem is to equate their feelings, thoughts, etc as humans. They do feel, think, reason, even argue, fight, love, hate, all of it, but on a different level or different way than humans.

There is no proof that animals have any of these qualities.

I think you're wrong. There is proof. You just have to open your eyes.

That's the question. As far as animal intelligence, I had an old farmer tell me how he hunted crows in his cornfield. He said two guys needed to walk into the field carrying shotguns. The crows would immediately fly off. After about ten minutes one guy would get up and leave the field. The crows would come back and the other guy started blasting away. 'Because," the old man told me, "crows are smart. They just can't count." Are animals smart and resourceful? Absolutely. Do animals reason things out? Absolutely no proof.

Can animals reason things out? Why not? We do know that reasoning comes from experience and thinking things through. We're using our brains to think things through. Animals have brains and those brains aren't there just for making their heads big. There's a reason why animals have a brain. Shrimp, that barely have no brain at all, can react and deal with situations like a a robot. Why do dogs have a billion times larger brain if not for improving their ability to reason?

Besides, the old man was wrong, crows can count some, and recognize symbols, and more. Your example is a bad example because there's the issue of cost-benefit reasoning. The danger to get food you need because you're starving. Humans do stupid and dangerous things, repeatedly, if they need to. So would animals. It's not about the ability to count or not.

 

[Alceste]

I think most of you "animals are our children" crowd have missed the point. The question is not whether animals have intelligence, can learn and adapt to situations, or can display anthropomorphic behavior to make some believe that Rover really loves you; the question is whether animals have a sense of their own existence. Do animals reason, plan for the future, understand life and death, have emotions like humans. There is no proof that animals have any of these qualities. That's the question. As far as animal intelligence, I had an old farmer tell me how he hunted crows in his cornfield. He said two guys needed to walk into the field carrying shotguns. The crows would immediately fly off. After about ten minutes one guy would get up and leave the field. The crows would come back and the other guy started blasting away. 'Because," the old man told me, "crows are smart. They just can't count." Are animals smart and resourceful? Absolutely. Do animals reason things out? Absolutely no proof.

Actually, that isn't the point. Nobody is interested in participating in this straw man argument of yours, no matter how obsessively you pursue it. Maybe revisit the op to see what the question is.

 

[Ouroboros]

You're making my case. Thank you.

I don't think so.

Correct me if I'm wrong but your argument is that animals don't have any consciousness, self awareness, reasoning, emotions, or experience?

 

[Ouroboros]

Some years ago I saw something very interesting. This pertains to swarm behavior and swarm intelligence. A large group of very small birds were chasing of a larger predator bird by flying groups and formations. Occasionally, half the swarm broke of and created a diversion, while the other one regrouped and started again from behind the predator bird. From what I could see, and with experience in networking computers, this behavior would be impossible without communication, and fairly advanced protocol and language. There must've been instructions of different kinds shared between the swarming birds. Some of the moves were anticipatory, i.e. they all changed direction at the same time as if they knew that was their plan.

 

[Alceste]

Some years ago I saw something very interesting. This pertains to swarm behavior and swarm intelligence. A large group of very small birds were chasing of a larger predator bird by flying groups and formations. Occasionally, half the swarm broke of and created a diversion, while the other one regrouped and started again from behind the predator bird. From what I could see, and with experience in networking computers, this behavior would be impossible without communication, and fairly advanced protocol and language. There must've been instructions of different kinds shared between the swarming birds. Some of the moves were anticipatory, i.e. they all changed direction at the same time as if they knew that was their plan.

I saw a great documentary on swarm behavior in the UK. The birds are amazing.

BBC One - Swarm: Nature's Incredible Invasions - Clips

There was a sparrow's nest right under my bedroom window in Montreal. When the chicks hatched I could see and hear them clearly through the window. They chirped for food quite loudly, but only when the mama bird was nearby and on her way back. I don't believe they could have seen her when they started chirping as she came from all directions and they weren't even looking, and I couldn't hear her, but they always knew when she was 5-10 seconds away. I think they could not only hear her when I couldn't, but also distinguish her voice from that of all the other birds (even other sparrows).

 

[Ouroboros]

There was a sparrow's nest right under my bedroom window in Montreal. When the chicks hatched I could see and hear them clearly through the window. They chirped for food quite loudly, but only when the mama bird was nearby and on her way back. I don't believe they could have seen her when they started chirping as she came from all directions and they weren't even looking, and I couldn't hear her, but they always knew when she was 5-10 seconds away. I think they could not only hear her when I couldn't, but also distinguish her voice from that of all the other birds (even other sparrows).

They probably had their own unique sounds. I've read somewhere that dolphins have unique names, and other animals have unique scents, so it's possible that birds recognize each other by signals/melodies.

We have a family of birds that comes back every year to nest under a rafter in the outside patio. When we walk out, one of the parents will fly away 10 feet from the nest and chirp, probably to take our attention away from their nest. One time, I saw two birds of the same kind passing each other in flight, and they both chirped a short little melody, like a "Hello" or "Hi, how are you" and went on their ways. It's just like lions, they have a greeting sounds called a shuffle. Our dogs have a greeting sound too, which I think they invented themselves.

The whole issue of the discussion isn't if animals have "human" xyz, but rather to understand that all animals and humans together have "animal" xyz. We're all alive, but live under different conditions. Swarm behavior, for instance, is an intelligence that we (humans) lack. There are more to the world than just us.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Some years ago I saw something very interesting. This pertains to swarm behavior and swarm intelligence. A large group of very small birds were chasing of a larger predator bird by flying groups and formations. Occasionally, half the swarm broke of and created a diversion, while the other one regrouped and started again from behind the predator bird. From what I could see, and with experience in networking computers, this behavior would be impossible without communication, and fairly advanced protocol and language. There must've been instructions of different kinds shared between the swarming birds. Some of the moves were anticipatory, i.e. they all changed direction at the same time as if they knew that was their plan.

The ability of ants to "communicate" like this and operate as a collective is vastly superior. Ants are also brainless. Literally.

 

[Ouroboros]

The ability of ants to "communicate" like this and operate as a collective is vastly superior.

True.

Ants are also brainless. Literally.

I'm not sure about that. I've read that they do have a brain, or actually one main brain and a couple of sub-brains (or whatever you could call it).

Even humans store memory in more places than the actual brain. The so-called muscle memory is to some extent stored in the nerves throughout our body.

At least that's what I know, or at least I thought so. As always, I could be wrong.

 

[Secret Chief]

You're right. The heart may indeed carry more than what we think of as muscle memory.

 

[Alceste]

True.


I'm not sure about that. I've read that they do have a brain, or actually one main brain and a couple of sub-brains (or whatever you could call it).

Even humans store memory in more places than the actual brain. The so-called muscle memory is to some extent stored in the nerves throughout our body.

At least that's what I know, or at least I thought so. As always, I could be wrong.

Occtopi also have neural cells on their tentacles as well as having brains, and are very smart.

 

[WyattDerp]

D:

Playmate of the Week: Mr Potato Head – Living the Scientific Life (Scientist, Interrupted)

Louis, the giant pacific octopus, Octopus dofleini, cuddles his Mr Potato Head.

The 1.8meter-wide (6 foot) animal is so attached to Mr Potato Head that he
becomes aggressive when aquarium staff try to remove it from his tank.

A smelt-filled Mr. Potato Head is sacrificed to Shania the giant Pacific octopus, Octopus dofleini. Octopus are highly intelligent and thus, easily bored, sea creatures that require intellectual stimulation.

When I look at that second picture, I can kinda hear it say "I HAZ A POTATO HEAD!! ^_^"

 

[WyattDerp]

By building "fairy circles" termites engineer their own ecosystem

It’s a complicated phenomenon, and, more than likely, there’s no actual consciousness or planning involved on the part of the termites; they are just instinctually performing tasks that have been etched into their DNA over millions of years. However, the end result of the insects' behavior is a massive change in their habitat, a process that scientists call “ecosystem engineering.”