New research shows we have underestimated both the scope and the scale of animal intelligence

[Straw Dog]

Hm...

So we underestimated animal intelligence and overestimated human intelligence?

Sounds about right. I always thought it was strange that dogs weren't considered people by some when it's clear that they have personalities.

 

[BSM1]

Your dog sounds very intelligent. Why don't you see if it will do an OP.[

If my dog could speak a human language, and could type, I'm sure she would tell you all about how the cats drive her nuts and how she absolutely hates all the meows and mews they make when they play, how it greatly annoys her when they play with her tail when she wags it, and she just cannot stand it whenever one of them rubs against her or tries to lay down next to her. And then she would tell you about her day at grandpa's and how she climbs on the furniture their even though she isn't allowed to but she just pretends that she didn't hear anyone telling her "no" or to "get down."
My dog is even so intune with her emotions, she has given some very nasty and downright ****** looks of jealousy towards anyone who tries to take my attention away from her. She also shoots these looks when she competing for the attention of my dad with someone else. I caught a glimpse of these looks in a mirror once and they are some pretty nasty, "if looks could kill" type of look coming from a dog. In no way shape or form does she know or have any concept of human love because she lacks a human brain and human experience, but at the same time she loves her mommy.
I can also explain to you the relationship between my mom's two dogs and my dog. Or even the relationship that my cats have among eachother.

I have no doubt.

 

[BSM1]

Oh dear, BSM1...... OK.... I give in.... you are more intelligent than a dog. Does that help to make you feel more secure?

But there's a good chance that you don't have a higher level of what we call 'common sense'. You might not have as high a level of 'initiative', either. Most animals can beat the 'hell' out of most humans at both 'common sense' and 'initiative'. Example? Ummmm..... A college lecturer driving thru a desert in Australia got his car stuck in sand, so left it and walked to near-death, when all he needed to do was let his tyres down down a bit for more traction. See? Loads of IQ, no common sense.

Animals have amazing levels of sense, awareness and initiative. They are also more true to their own. Whether in conflict, contention of team togetherness, they follow straighter paths than we humans, who ae the only species on the planet capable of evil.

You may be right. If "common sense" tells you a dog can talk, I guess I lose that race. Also animals do not have intuition, they have instinct. Oft times we hear what we want to hear and believe what we want to believe with facts being minor inconveniences.

 

[Rakhel]

damned mice! we put out glue traps, they figure out how to avoid them. We put out poison, they go the other way. We get one of those things that houses the bait, they put insulation in the hole of the house so other mice know not to go in!


mice, stupid? yeah, right!

 

[oldbadger]

My IQ is 137.

But because I have asperger's syndrome, I have to make a concerted effort to socialize; everyone else can do it just by instinct. I have little to no fashion sense (I honestly don't understand how a suit is "nicer" than a clean t-shirt and intact jeans) and I have to be deliberate in my politeness.

Plus, though I am quite intelligent, if you just dropped me in a forest weeks away from civilization, I'd certainly die within a week, possibly quicker, since I have absolutely no survival training beyond watching "Man vs. Wild" every now and then.

How interesting! I once had an IQ f 132, but it's probably more like 10 now! I never could socialise well, and apart from my wedding suite and a black suit (my friends die often these months) I only ever wear black T shirt and jeans. I was a very good teacher/trainer for some reason, and worked very well as a lone commercial detective..... was hopeless at team stuff.

Oh...... and if you dropped me in that forest, whilst I might manage well enough, the only reason I would want to get back would be to see Mrs Badger and the daxie-dogs (and ducks, and cats)!

 

[oldbadger]

You may be right. If "common sense" tells you a dog can talk, I guess I lose that race. Also animals do not have intuition, they have instinct. Oft times we hear what we want to hear and believe what we want to believe with facts being minor inconveniences.

OK...... good points, all.

Let me answer, best I can......... dogs can talk, much better than us, or, rather I should say that they can 'read' better than us..... about 10-20 times better. I used to teach 'Body language', 'posture sign' and 'non-verbal gestures' to commercial detectives which helped them very much in question/answer sequences and various kinds of thief-catching, so I know a bit about this. I used to write about this kind of subject amongst others in our national security magazine.

So I can tell you, for instance, that (human) females generally have a far advanced NVG and BL ability over males (circa X3), for various ancient survival reasons. Now Dogs are probably 20 times more acute that human females.

A dog can read another dog, or a human, or any potential target or foe super-fast. This is as 'out-of-sight' to you or me as reading 'shakespeare' would be to my wife's little dachshunds.

Yes, dogs have strong instinct, but they do have initiative as well, for instance, one of our dachshunds is crazy about a stone! Yes..... one large pebble. And so, to encourage her to come out of the pond, where she swims all the time with the ducks, I will show her her favourite stone! Usually works, but this morning, Smew refused, swam to the pondside, and took up a new pebble, which she must have placed there just to confound me. And she throws 'wobblers' when she doesn';t get her way.

Yeah.... oft times we do self-deceive, but in this I feel 'about right'.

 

[oldbadger]

damned mice! we put out glue traps, they figure out how to avoid them. We put out poison, they go the other way. We get one of those things that houses the bait, they put insulation in the hole of the house so other mice know not to go in!

mice, stupid? yeah, right!

What a lovely post!!!! Bloody little critters!

 

[BSM1]

OK...... good points, all.

Let me answer, best I can......... dogs can talk, much better than us, or, rather I should say that they can 'read' better than us..... about 10-20 times better. I used to teach 'Body language', 'posture sign' and 'non-verbal gestures' to commercial detectives which helped them very much in question/answer sequences and various kinds of thief-catching, so I know a bit about this. I used to write about this kind of subject amongst others in our national security magazine.

So I can tell you, for instance, that (human) females generally have a far advanced NVG and BL ability over males (circa X3), for various ancient survival reasons. Now Dogs are probably 20 times more acute that human females.

A dog can read another dog, or a human, or any potential target or foe super-fast. This is as 'out-of-sight' to you or me as reading 'shakespeare' would be to my wife's little dachshunds.

Yes, dogs have strong instinct, but they do have initiative as well, for instance, one of our dachshunds is crazy about a stone! Yes..... one large pebble. And so, to encourage her to come out of the pond, where she swims all the time with the ducks, I will show her her favourite stone! Usually works, but this morning, Smew refused, swam to the pondside, and took up a new pebble, which she must have placed there just to confound me. And she throws 'wobblers' when she doesn';t get her way.

Yeah.... oft times we do self-deceive, but in this I feel 'about right'.

I think you're still in the realm of instinct and learned behavior as opposed to intuition and reason.

 

[Riverwolf]

You may be right. If "common sense" tells you a dog can talk, I guess I lose that race.

They can communicate. It is possible for dogs and humans to communicate with each other.

Also animals do not have intuition, they have instinct.

How do you know they lack intuition?

We also have instinct, and in my experience, most people only operate on it.

 

[Riverwolf]

I think you're still in the realm of instinct and learned behavior as opposed to intuition and reason.

Our ability to communicate with each other is instinct and learned behavior, as well. I know, because I have trouble with communication, yet my ability to reason is extremely high.

 

[Ouroboros]

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Sweet Mama Dog Interacting with a Beautiful Child with Down Syndrome Jim Stenson - YouTube

This is how my dogs behave. They show affection. They're concerned if we're having loud arguments at home. When you're sick, they'll come up and want to comfort you. Dogs are amazing.

 

[outis]

Sure, it's just that it comes across as kinda needy when nobody ever claimed animals are totally equal in all respects to humans.

It also comes across as sinister when certain people argue that traits some humans do not share are what makes people self-aware and different from animals, especially considering these humans have been previously targetted for extermination based on this kind of reasoning.

 

[Ouroboros]

BTW if you feel that animals "understand" and exhibit human love, then they must "understand" and exhibit human hate.

"Human love" is a bit misleading, and so is "human hate." But dogs do feel love and hate. They can feel down, sick, happy, playful, sad, even regretful and guilty. They also can learn to understand right from wrong and even police each other. They also dream.

If this is the case do we now need to decide if animals that kill human are doing this deliberately?

In some cases that might actually be true. In some cases, the dog(s) have killed humans to survive (hungry, need food, and there are humans who've done the same thing too, just look up the Donner party).

Do we need to try them? Read them their rights? How about crows that steal shiny things? Do we have to arrest them?

Their consciousness and reasoning skills are not on that level. It's a false dichotomy to argue that they don't have any consciousness or awareness just because they don't have as complex consciousness as humans. It's like arguing that ants don't have legs because they're so small compared to human legs.

Besides, when dogs kill people, we do put them down, so we do execute rights over them. And crows that steal things? People shoot crows. So we already do all this.

Still no of you have produced one shred of evidence that animals have awareness like humans.

The research doesn't say "awareness like humans" but something a bit different. That you're making this point makes me think you didn't read the article. Did you miss the quote:

Experiments with animals have long been handicapped by our anthropocentric attitude: We often test them in ways that work fine with humans but not so well with other species. Scientists are now finally meeting animals on their own terms instead of treating them like furry (or feathery) humans, and this shift is fundamentally reshaping our understanding.

That's just one point they're making that we can't compare animals to humans in that way. Animals do think, reason, communicate, feel, but not in the same area as humans. We are all different in our way of experiencing life, animals too. So the "awareness like humans" is not the result of the research.

There has been a lot of speculation and fairy tales but no proof. You can do better.

Wait a minute. The article is about research that's been done. And in that research the results are what they have presented. The research is the proof.

 

[BSM1]

T

he research doesn't say "awareness like humans" but something a bit different. That you're making this point makes me think you didn't read the article. Did you miss the quote:

That's just one point they're making that we can't compare animals to humans in that way. Animals do think, reason, communicate, feel, but not in the same area as humans. We are all different in our way of experiencing life, animals too. So the "awareness like humans" is not the result of the research.


Wait a minute. The article is about research that's been done. And in that research the results are what they have presented. The research is the proof.

[/QUOTE]


You're making my case. Thank you.

 

[oldbadger]

I think you're still in the realm of instinct and learned behavior as opposed to intuition and reason.

OK....... one more.
My wife's boss (like us) keeps dachshunds. Today she brought home a 'rescue' bull-terrier to see if it could fit-in. It didn't. Lead Daxie Slinkie (an alpha b-tch) didn't like the b-t. So she nicked the b-t's three favourite balls (which had been brought with it), took them to her bed, and sat there, daring the b-t to try and take them.

Instinct? :no:
Learned? :no:
Reason and Initiative? :yes:

But, if you won't have it, you won't have it.........

 

[Riverwolf]

You're making my case. Thank you.

Explain.

 

[Alceste]

I think you're still in the realm of instinct and learned behavior as opposed to intuition and reason.

Intuition is Judy the name we give to our own instincts.

 

[Father Heathen]

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[WyattDerp]

It's a false dichotomy to argue that they don't have any consciousness or awareness just because they don't have as complex consciousness as humans. It's like arguing that ants don't have legs because they're so small compared to human legs.

You're making my case. Thank you.

I think you're confusing blowing your "arguments" out of the water with confirming them, and closing the case with making it ^^

 

[oldbadger]

FATHERHEATHEN!!!

Why didn't I think of that! Over the last thirty years, a group of crows has developed a whole new culture on the coast here. They have taken foreshore scavenging to a new level entirely by picking up mussels and whelks, flying up over the concrete promenade and dropping them, so that hey smash open. Their offspring have copied,and now there is a huge crow community thriving on shellfish!

It goes further than that! The common and herring gulls have been watching all this, and now they have started, but they don't seem as bright, because they still droptheir shellfish at random, some hitting stones and breaking, some not, whereas the crows get it right every time.

My old man was a part-time gamekeeper, so I used to shoot vermin for him. It always amazed me how crows would fly past in range when I did not have a gun, so I would hide it under clothing and appear as if sweeping or digging. That worked for about a week, after which crows did not fly past me at all, although they carried on, as before, with everybody else.

Ain't crows amazing?