Muslim and Western?

[Monotheist 101]

It seems some people really care about the opinions of scholars and sheikhs and fiqhs and madhabs. I think we should care a little more about the opinion of Allah instead. I know it's a crazy concept!!

[9:74] They swear by God that they did not say it, while they had said the word of rejection, and they rejected after they had submitted, and they were concerned with what they could not possess; and they could not find any fault except that God and His messenger had enriched them from His bounty. If they repent it is better for them, and if they turn away, then GOD WILL PUNISH THEM severely in this world and the next. They will not have on the earth any ally or supporter.

Who punishes them? GOD

If you want to change this rule based on the words of some scholar on a power trip, you better be damn sure you're right. Because if you're not right and God didn't give you permission to kill apostates (which Quran has no evidence for), then you are supporting murder. You are supporting the taking of human life that was not yours to take. Let God handle such punishments. We should be worried about our own souls. Peace.

I think we are on the same page. I appreciate your insights, we need more individual thinkers like you.

 

[Monotheist 101]

With your logic a rapist can keep on raping, there should be no judge or laws according you for these behaviors?
Allah(swt) gave us laws, intellect and guides to correct ourselfs moreover its commanded to follow the messenger(saws) how can we follow him without authentic reports?

We can stop a rapist from physically raping, who is to stop him in his heart and mind?

The difference between a rapist and apostate is that the apostate is concerned with an internal problem, you cannot force people to change what is in their Hearts. A rapist on the other hand is physically raping people and should be stopped under the premise of morality not just Islam.

Guys you place so much importance on the views of the learned and the scholars that you forget to use individual logic and your brain in making decisions. Dont get me wrong I am not denouncing any scholars and their opinions, All I am saying is that if something does not make sense to me, I have a right to disagree with it, Other than the Quran God had not vowed to protect the Hadith or Teachings of the Scholars.

 

[Aamer]

We can stop a rapist from physically raping, who is to stop him in his heart and mind?

The difference between a rapist and apostate is that the apostate is concerned with an internal problem, you cannot force people to change what is in their Hearts. A rapist on the other hand is physically raping people and should be stopped under the premise of morality not just Islam.

Guys you place so much importance on the views of the learned and the scholars that you forget to use individual logic and your brain in making decisions. Dont get me wrong I am not denouncing any scholars and their opinions, All I am saying is that if something does not make sense to me, I have a right to disagree with it, Other than the Quran God had not vowed to protect the Hadith or Teachings of the Scholars.

A rapist or anyone who has harmed society should be punished of course. These people are detrimental to society. But an apostate or someone who rejects Allah is only harming himself. As for scholars, I'll say this. There are scholars of Catholicism and Buddhism too. They have studied their whole lives too. Doesn't make them right.

 

[Aamer]

With your logic a rapist can keep on raping, there should be no judge or laws according you for these behaviors?
Allah(swt) gave us laws, intellect and guides to correct ourselfs moreover its commanded to follow the messenger(saws) how can we follow him without authentic reports?

Fouad,
I addressed the rapist issue above. As for "Obey Allah and his messenger", we have a different interpretation of this means. Sunnis take this to mean "Obey Allah and Bukhari." I don't think the Prophet intended or ever wanted someone to come 300 years later after his death, compile his sayings and make it FARD (mandatory) on believers to follow this innovation. If Allah wanted this to happen, he would have had Prophet Muhammad instruct his followers to memorize these sayings down during his lifetime, just as he did with Quran. If it was truly from Allah, and it was part of the package with Quran, wouldn't Allah have promised to protect Hadith as well? But none of this happened. Hadith books were compiled long after the Prophets death and cannot be considered a source of Islam in my opinion. A reference to understand history? Sure. A reference to understand rituals and Islamic practices better? Sure. But they can't be 100% guaranteed and making them mandatory to believe in just unacceptable. And there are do many Hadith in Bukhari which are straight up disrespectful to Prophet Muhammad. I don't see how anyone who has love and respect for our beautiful Prophet can accept such things written about him and make those texts a source of their religion. I'm guessing most people don't know about those Hadith in Bukhari. To me, such Hadith are useless. They benefit no one and are intended to harm the Prophet and paint him in a negative light. Unacceptable!

So what does "Obey the messenger" mean?

First of all. What was Prophet Muhammad's duty?

[5:92] Obey God and obey the messenger, and beware. If you turn away then know that the duty of the messenger to deliver the message clearly.

[13:40] Whether we let you (Prophet) see part of what we threaten them with, or cause you to die (before that), your duty is ONLY TO DELIVER THE MESSAGE: The Reckoning is ours

[16:82] So if they turn away (Prophet), your ONLY DUTY IS TO DELIVER THE MESSAGE clearly.

[24:54] Say: "Obey God, and obey the messenger." But if they turn away, (know that) he is only responsible for the duty placed upon him, and you are responsible for the duty placed upon you. If you obey him, you will be rightly guided, but the MESSENGERS ONLY DUTY IS TO DELVER THE MESSAGE CLEARLY

[18:56] We do not send the messengers except as bearers of good news and warners. But those who reject will argue using falsehood to overshadow the truth with it. They took My signs and what they have been warned by as a joke!

There are many more verses but I'll stop there. Allah makes it clear that the messengers only duty was to deliver the message. And Prophet Muhammad did a darn good job fulfilling his duty.

So how do you obey the messenger?

By obeying the message he brought. The Quran. If you follow the Quran, you are following the Prophet. Bukhari has nothing to do with following or obeying the Prophet. These are just fallible, imperfect history books, created by humans. They are not authored by Allah, nor are the authored by Prophet Muhammad.

 

[Aamer]

*Correction: Allah WANTED the Hadith books to happen. As everything happens only by his will. What I meant was, that it is a test and not intended to be a source of Islam. Peace.

 

[Rational_Mind]

With your logic a rapist can keep on raping, there should be no judge or laws according you for these behaviors?

Did you actually just compare rapists who do an aggravated assault to people who change their religion?

Please explain possibly how these two are even similar in any way. It seems pretty clear to me it is a logical fallacy known as False Analogy.

Do you understand that by your law you should never complain if a Christian who converts to Islam should be given the death penalty by Christians. From a Christian perspective they would see this convert as an apostate.

I hope you can be honest enough to admit that you have crossed the line by making such a statement. Can you make an apology?

 

[F0uad]

Did you actually just compare rapists who do an aggravated assault to people who change their religion?

Please explain possibly how these two are even similar in any way. It seems pretty clear to me it is a logical fallacy known as False Analogy.

Do you understand that by your law you should never complain if a Christian who converts to Islam should be given the death penalty by Christians. From a Christian perspective they would see this convert as an apostate.

I hope you can be honest enough to admit that you have crossed the line by making such a statement. Can you make an apology?

No i won't because you fully misunderstood what i was saying and i really don't care about what you think or belief.

 

[F0uad]

Fouad,
I addressed the rapist issue above. As for "Obey Allah and his messenger", we have a different interpretation of this means. Sunnis take this to mean "Obey Allah and Bukhari." I don't think the Prophet intended or ever wanted someone to come 300 years later after his death, compile his sayings and make it FARD (mandatory) on believers to follow this innovation. If Allah wanted this to happen, he would have had Prophet Muhammad instruct his followers to memorize these sayings down during his lifetime, just as he did with Quran. If it was truly from Allah, and it was part of the package with Quran, wouldn't Allah have promised to protect Hadith as well? But none of this happened. Hadith books were compiled long after the Prophets death and cannot be considered a source of Islam in my opinion. A reference to understand history? Sure. A reference to understand rituals and Islamic practices better? Sure. But they can't be 100% guaranteed and making them mandatory to believe in just unacceptable. And there are do many Hadith in Bukhari which are straight up disrespectful to Prophet Muhammad. I don't see how anyone who has love and respect for our beautiful Prophet can accept such things written about him and make those texts a source of their religion. I'm guessing most people don't know about those Hadith in Bukhari. To me, such Hadith are useless. They benefit no one and are intended to harm the Prophet and paint him in a negative light. Unacceptable!

So what does "Obey the messenger" mean?

First of all. What was Prophet Muhammad's duty?

[5:92] Obey God and obey the messenger, and beware. If you turn away then know that the duty of the messenger to deliver the message clearly.

[13:40] Whether we let you (Prophet) see part of what we threaten them with, or cause you to die (before that), your duty is ONLY TO DELIVER THE MESSAGE: The Reckoning is ours

[16:82] So if they turn away (Prophet), your ONLY DUTY IS TO DELIVER THE MESSAGE clearly.

[24:54] Say: "Obey God, and obey the messenger." But if they turn away, (know that) he is only responsible for the duty placed upon him, and you are responsible for the duty placed upon you. If you obey him, you will be rightly guided, but the MESSENGERS ONLY DUTY IS TO DELVER THE MESSAGE CLEARLY

[18:56] We do not send the messengers except as bearers of good news and warners. But those who reject will argue using falsehood to overshadow the truth with it. They took My signs and what they have been warned by as a joke!

There are many more verses but I'll stop there. Allah makes it clear that the messengers only duty was to deliver the message. And Prophet Muhammad did a darn good job fulfilling his duty.

So how do you obey the messenger?

By obeying the message he brought. The Quran. If you follow the Quran, you are following the Prophet. Bukhari has nothing to do with following or obeying the Prophet. These are just fallible, imperfect history books, created by humans. They are not authored by Allah, nor are the authored by Prophet Muhammad.

You forgot "and teach the Quran".

Moreover Allah(swt) send Mohammed(saws) as a example if you would read more of the Quran: 33:21 There has certainly been for you in the Messenger of Allah an excellent pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day and [who] remembers Allah often.

Again the notion is that we should follow the Sunnah (teachings of Mohammed"Saws") lets say someone wants to convert to Islam yet doesn't know anything about Mohammed(saws) how is he or she going to convert when the Quran doesn't mention him that much? I can give many more examples for why we need the Hadith and Historians but that is a whole different debate.

 

[F0uad]

We can stop a rapist from physically raping, who is to stop him in his heart and mind?

The difference between a rapist and apostate is that the apostate is concerned with an internal problem, you cannot force people to change what is in their Hearts. A rapist on the other hand is physically raping people and should be stopped under the premise of morality not just Islam.

Guys you place so much importance on the views of the learned and the scholars that you forget to use individual logic and your brain in making decisions. Dont get me wrong I am not denouncing any scholars and their opinions, All I am saying is that if something does not make sense to me, I have a right to disagree with it, Other than the Quran God had not vowed to protect the Hadith or Teachings of the Scholars.

I am not talking about the "problem" i am talking about your reasoning you said there is no punishment for converting in the Quran but the same applies for Rapists.
Haven't i said that there are many opinions regarding this subject even among Sunni scholars, Madhabs and Jurists? Like i said you are open to your opinion but to say its Unislamic is unfair.

 

[Quagmire]

***Mod Post***

Thread closed for staff review.​

 

[Debater Slayer]

***Mod Post***

This thread has been moved to the Religious Debates forum per staff consensus.
​

 

[England my lionheart]

A couple of months ago I converted to Islam, but since then I have gone through some trouble with my new faith. Although I still have faith, I find that some times it contradicts with my own Western culture and values.

Things like women's rights, capital punishments for apostates, and other parts of Shariah law go against my beliefs in freedom of religion and expression.

I'm still learning, so if any one could explain these points to me better, I'll be very grateful.

Which Islam have you converted to?

 

[Gharib]

Which Islam have you converted to?

There's only one Islam.

 

[Aquitaine]

There's only one Islam.

This thread alone seems to demonstrate that the opposite is true - there seems to be a lot of varied perspectives and interpretations. That's not an insult by the way, followers of every religion disagree with each other.

 

[Gharib]

This thread alone seems to demonstrate that the opposite is true - there seems to be a lot of varied perspectives and interpretations. That's not an insult by the way, followers of every religion disagree with each other.

There is a difference between Islam and other groups/movements contrary to Islam yet based on Islamic teachings.

 

[Aquitaine]

There is a difference between Islam and other groups/movements contrary to Islam yet based on Islamic teachings.

So the Muslims you're debating with aren't "real" Muslims?

 

[Gharib]

So the Muslims you're debating with aren't "real" Muslims?

Which Muslims?

 

[Caladan]

There's only one Islam.

What are the basic standards necessary for any group to be of the single Islamic umbrella?
Shiites, Sunnis (Wahabis and all other), Alawites, Druze, Sufis, Ahmadiyya, are they all part of this one Islam?
In other words is there any group of people who claim to be Muslims but you do not consider them to be?

 

[Sha'irullah]

What are the basic standards necessary for any group to be of the single Islamic umbrella?
Shiites, Sunnis (Wahabis and all other), Alawites, Druze, Sufis, Ahmadiyya, are they all part of this one Islam?
In other words is there any group of people who claim to be Muslims but you do not consider them to be?

Despite the fact I personally do not accept Shi'ites under the Islamic fold it is not arguable for Druze. Druze do not even consider themselves under the Islamic umbrella anymore.

Do not forget if all of these groups are under the same umbrella then I myself am a Muslim as I abide by quite a bit of Islamic dogma and theology

 

[Aquitaine]

Which Muslims?

I've seen you debate with other Muslims here about issues relating to Islam where there is a credible diversity of opinions. I keep hearing about this "true" Islam or this "one" Islam, as if it's some sort of monolithic doctrine.

Also, as Caladan mentioned, there are many different "branches" of Muslims. Do you consider all "branches" of Islam as legitimate, or do you believe that there is a significant rift amongst Muslims between who's adhering to the "true Islam"?