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Muslim and Western?

Treks

Well-Known Member
Thank you very much Rational Mind.

simply because they are not the front line of financial transactions in a Islamic society.

I think this is a key sentance. Thank you for including it. :)
 

Union

Well-Known Member
These words are not offensive at all:


distorted Islam .

The so called Shariah law practiced and propagated by Shia and Sunni Muslims are not from GOD

enemies of Islam

If truth appears to be offensive , what to do... ;)
 

F0uad

Well-Known Member
If truth appears to be offensive , what to do... ;)

Ok you know that your calling 1,6 to 1,8 Billion Muslims and those who lived in the past the enemy of Islam right?

What if i said that all Quranist are the enemies of Islam? How truthful is that statement?
 

Union

Well-Known Member
Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 8.578
Narrated 'Abdullah:

The Prophet said, "I am your predecessor at the Lake-Fount." 'Abdullah
added: The Prophet said, "I am your predecessor at the Lake-Fount, and
some of you will be brought in front of me till I will see them and
then they will be taken away from me and I will say, 'O Lord, my
companions!' It will be said, 'You do not know what they did after you
had left.'



Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 8.584
Narrated Anas:

The Prophet said, "Some of my companions will come to me at my Lake
Fount, and after I recognize them, they will then be taken away from
me, whereupon I will say, 'My companions!' Then it will be said, 'You
do not know what they innovated (new things) in the religion after
you."
(also Sahih Muslim, part 15, pp 53-54)


Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 8.585
Narrated Abu Hazim from Sahl bin Sa'd:

The Prophet said, "I am your predecessor (forerunner) at the Lake-
Fount, and whoever will pass by there, he will drink from it and
whoever will drink from it, he will never be thirsty. There will come
to me some people whom I will recognize, and they will recognize me,
but a barrier will be placed between me and them." Abu Hazim added:
Nu'man bin Abi 'Aiyash, on hearing me, said. "Did you hear this from
Sahl?" I said, "Yes." He said, " I bear witness that I heard Abu Said
al-Khudri saying the same, adding that the Prophet said: 'I will say:
They are my companions. Then it will be said to me, 'You do not know
what they innovated (new things) in the religion after you left'.
I will say, 'Far removed, far removed (from mercy), those who changed
after me."
Abu Huraira narrated that the Prophet said, "On the Day of
Resurrection a group of companions will come to me, but will be
driven away from the Lake-Fount, and I will say, 'O Lord
(those are) my companions!' It will be said, 'You have no knowledge
as to what they innovated after you left; they turned apostate as
renegades (reverted from the true Islam)."


Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 8.586
Narrated Ibn al-Musaiyab:

"Some men from my companions will come to my Lake-Fount and they will
be driven away from it, and I will say, 'O Lord, my companions!' It
will be said, 'You have no knowledge of what they innovated after you
left: they turned APOSTATE as renegades (reverted from true Islam)."

(also Sahih Muslim, part 10, p64, also P59)


Sahih Bukhari Hadith: 8.587
Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "While I was sleeping, a group (of my followers were
brought close to me), and when I recognized them, a man (an angel)
came out from amongst (us) me and them, he said (to them), 'Come
along.' I asked, 'Where?' He said, 'To the (Hell) Fire, by Allah' I
asked, 'what is wrong with them?' He said, 'They turned APOSTATE as
renegades after you left.' Then behold! (Another) group (of my
followers) were brought close to me, and when I recognized them, a man
(an angel) came out from (me and them) he said (to them); Come along.'
I asked, "Where?' He said, 'To the (Hell) Fire, by Allah.' I asked,
What is wrong with them?' He said, 'They turned APOSTATE as renegades
after you left. So I did not see anyone of them escaping except a few
who were like camels without a shepherd."



Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 8.592
Narrated Asma 'bint Abu Bakr:

The Prophet said, "I will be standing at the Lake-Fount so that I will
see whom among you will come to me; and some people will be taken
away from me, and I will say, 'O Lord, (they are) from me and from my
followers.' Then it will be said, 'Did you notice what they did after
you? By Allah, they kept on turning on their heels (turned away from
true Islam).' " The sub-narrator, Ibn Abi Mulaika said, "O Allah, we
seek refuge with You from turning on our heels, or being put to trial
in our religion."



Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 9.172
Narrated Asma':

The Prophet said, "I will be at my Lake-Fount (Kauthar) waiting for
whoever will come to me. Then some people will be taken away from me
whereupon I will say, 'My followers!' It will be said, 'You do not
know they turned APOSTATES as renegades (deserted their religion).'"

(Ibn Abi Mulaika said, "Allah, we seek refuge with You from turning on
our heels from the (Islamic) religion and from being put to trial").


Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 9.173
Narrated 'Abdullah:

The Prophet said, "I am your predecessor at the Lake-Fount (Kauthar)
and some men amongst you will be brought to me, and when I will try to
hand them some water, they will be pulled away from me by force
whereupon I will say, 'O Lord, my companions!' Then the Almighty will
say, 'You do not know what they did after you left, they introduced
new things into the religion after you.'"


Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 9.174
Narrated Sahl bin Sa'd:

I heard the Prophet saying, "I am your predecessor at the Lake-Fount
(Kauthar), and whoever will come to it, will drink from it, and
whoever will drink from it, will never become thirsty after that.
There will come to me some people whom I know and they know me, and
then a barrier will be set up between me and them." Abu Sa'id al-
Khudri added that the Prophet further said: "I will say those people
are from me. It will be said, 'You do not know what changes and new
things they did after you.' Then I will say, 'Far removed (from
mercy), far removed (from mercy), those who changed after me!' "



Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 3.555
Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, I will drive some
people out from my (sacred) Fount on the Day of Resurrection as
strange camels are expelled from a private trough."


Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 5.488
Narrated al-Musaiyab:

I met al-Bara bin 'Azib and said (to him). "May you live prosperously!
You enjoyed the company of the Prophet and gave him the Pledge of
allegiance (of al-Hudaibiya) under the Tree (of al-Hudaybiyah)." On
that, al-Bara' said, "O my nephew! You do not know what we have done
after him (i.e. his death)."
 

F0uad

Well-Known Member
This is a dir? And it seems that those Hadiths are talking about people like you..
 

Union

Well-Known Member
Ok you know that your calling 1,6 to 1,8 Billion Muslims and those who lived in the past the enemy of Islam right?

What if i said that all Quranist are the enemies of Islam? How truthful is that statement?

I called those people who created the Hadeeth were the enemies of Islam not the mass/mob Muslim in general . They are simply the prey to the bait.
 

Yusz

Exorcist and Mystical
For not confusing a new one... it's good for them to study only Quran first, understand every word in Quran and then it's up to them to study hadith after that ... it's not wrong at all to study hadith but we need to do step by step ... being stuck between religion and culture is not easy at all.
 

Rational_Mind

Ahmadi Muslim
Fellow Muslims, let's not argue over such things. It derails the thread. Post your view and leave it at that. Kinder words could be used. It disappoints me that every convert asking questions finds such a display.
 

Matemkar

Active Member
A couple of months ago I converted to Islam, but since then I have gone through some trouble with my new faith. Although I still have faith, I find that some times it contradicts with my own Western culture and values.

Things like women's rights, capital punishments for apostates, and other parts of Shariah law go against my beliefs in freedom of religion and expression.

I'm still learning, so if any one could explain these points to me better, I'll be very grateful.

Salam. MashaAllah :) that's really nice..
Yes, we do have faith and still we all (not just the westerners) should always question, to get to know more about our faith and its philosophy. Prophet Mohammad (pbuh&hp) says that at least one day a week we should study the the affairs of our religion. (Bihar-ul-Anwar, vol. 1, p. 176)

ok.. We can study such issues with the book "180 Questions Enquiries About Islam"
Here's the chapter about "rights of women in Islam" you might like to read; 180 Questions Enquiries About Islam Volume One: The Practical Laws

thanks. ma salam
 
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Monotheist 101

Well-Known Member
Guys the problem I see with us Muslims in today's time is that we are quick to point out why the other person is wrong or his belief is wrong, instead we should inwardly reflect and try to become better morale people. In our quest for truth we have lost our morality, how can one construct a building without laying its foundations? The foundation of Islam or any religion is morality, we choose not to think of our own morals but question others belief and point out how they are wrong. It is not upto us to decide, all we can do is open our hearts and clean our intentions, God will help the righteous, We should never be proud, pride is only for Allah. So what I see going on here is people are being proud of their beliefs and then disrespecting eachother, which goes against the moral foundations of Islam.

Regarding the Hadith, I have read any scripture or religion I can get my hand on, If I find something good in it, I take it, Same goes with the Hadith I will read them regardless of them being authentic or not, its contents will point to me if they are contradictory, but I always keep in my mind that even the Sahih Hadith has a 1% chance of being unfaithful and the lesson learned from it can go against Muhammad(P.B.U.H) teachings.

I will give you an example of misconceptions that can arise because at the end of the day the Hadith still has a 1% chance that it might not be true or the lesson we learn from it is wrong. Now I have a 6 month old puppy named Ringo, I refuse to believe that God will stop me from feeding watering and taking care of his creation.

All my Muslim friends and family including Mom kept telling me that the Dog is a dirty animal its spit is the devils spit or some extreme views like that.

I picked up the Quran I found only two instances where the Dog is mentioned. Once it is compared with the attitude of the Jews, im not qouting but this was the gist, The Jews are like the Dog that pants regardless of whether you punish him or reward him. The other time in Surah Kahf, in the story about the group of people who slept in a gave for few centuries and they had a dog with them.

So in my understanding the Quran which is Gods Word does not mention the dog being a dirty animal.

As you might already know there are 4 schools of thought in Islam, each has its on perception of Dogs, One say that both spit and hair is haram, second say only spit is haram, third says only hair is haram, fourth says dog is not haram.

The Basis of this argument can be found in some Hadith of the prophet, people fail to take the hadith in the context of the time that it was said. When Mohammad P.B.U.H migrated to Madina there was a rabbies epidemic in the stray dog population of Medina.

The main Gist of the Hadith is: If a dog eats from your vessel, give him the rest of the food and wash the vessel 7 times the first time with sand. People give an extreme meaning to this statement. 1400 years ago in Medina there was no detergents to wash the diseased germs away, as you know sand is a natural cleaner and contains many minerals, another reason is that 1400 years ago maybe everyone had one eating vessel that was shared amongst alot of people and there was a need to re-use the vessel.

There are several Hadith in which Mohammad has commanded to kill dogs (because they were diseased), He warned against the fully black dog.(my dog has brown stripes :)

The only hadith that concerned me was the one where Gabriel had given Mohammad a set time of when he would visit but did not show up for a few days after the appointment time, when he finally arrived he said that there was a puppy under one of the beds/funiture which had kept him from entering the house of the Rasool.

I am very aware of the spirit world and notice my dog bark for no apparent reason looking at the sealing and corner of the room and sometimes he barks towards my left shoulder, I am very aware of this and if I feel he can sense something I start reading the Ayat ul Kursi, the best of the protection. I make him sleep outside so atleast the angels can come visit me at night when I read Ayat ul Kursi before I go to bed.

My point being because the Hadith is not the word of God and we can not be 100% certain that it has not been changed as with the Quran, I chose to be very careful when using them and give more weight and importance to Quran over them, That does not mean I reject them all.
 

Monotheist 101

Well-Known Member
If a murderer or rapist gives me good sound advice, do I reject it on the basis of the persons character? or should I place more importance on what is being said and make an unprejudiced decision?

What I am trying to say is, Good can come from anyone or anything, even Hinduism, Buddhism and Evil can come from anything even from our learned Islamic Scholars. We should never close the door on something good regardless of whether it was authentic or not. God has given us a brain for a reason,we should learn to use it, it is not like he only gave a brain to learned scholars, when we start whole heartedly believing other people's interpretations we are infact closing our minds and not using what makes us Ashraf-Ul-Makhlookat the best of the creations.
 

Aamer

Truth Seeker
All of the Hadith talking about kill all the dogs have one thing in common. Narrated by Abu Hurairah. Abu Hurairah literally means "Father of the kitten" in Arabic. He was given this name because he had a cat when he was a kid that he loved. It's said that when he lived with the Prophet for two years, he used to feed a lot of stray cats and so there were always cats around the house. It's interesting that the Quran says nothing bad about dogs. In fact, the righteous believers who slept in the cave had their dog with them. Kind of strange considering the Hadith say angels won't visit a house with a dog in it. The other thing to note about Abu Hurairah is that he grew up Jewish in Yemen. He converted to Islam when his rabbi converted. You will find a lot of Hadith narrated by him which have some questionable stories about Prophet Moses. There is also one Hadith in which Abu Hurairah admits to asking someone to read a sura in Quran, even though he already knew it, to get a free meal. He admits to being broke and hungry. There are also Hadith in which Aisha corrects a narration by Abu Hurairah regarding the comparison of women to donkeys I think. Abu Hurairah narrated more Sahih Hadith than anyone else. He was in the company of Prophet Muhammad for two years. It is a well documented fact that Hazrat Umar beat the crap out of him on a few occasions and accused him of lying and taking money. I'm not saying all the allegations against Abu Hurairah are true. I wasn't there and I can't judge his character. It may also be possible that he never said the things that ended up in Bukhari. As they were compiled long after his death and linked back to him through a chain of narration. I have no preference when it comes to Sunni vs Shia Hadith. I'm just saying there are enough question marks surrounding Abu Hurairah to where I'm not going to go around killing every dog I see. Nor am I going to believe everything his narrations say are necessarily from Prophet Muhammad. There's enough question marks around this issue that I think it's much safer to avoid it.
 

Union

Well-Known Member
It is an issue when taking Hadeeth as the source of Islam . Theoretically it is the second source of Islam , but practically the first . This is unacceptable

And , there is no problem to appreciate good Bible verse , Tripitok verse , vedic verse and any Hadeeth . I found so many useful information from Salman Rushdie's book , no worries . But they are not the source of Islam .
 

Treks

Well-Known Member
That explains why my dog growls at the Muslims who live a few houses down, he's scared for his life!
 

Sahar

Well-Known Member
A couple of months ago I converted to Islam, but since then I have gone through some trouble with my new faith. Although I still have faith, I find that some times it contradicts with my own Western culture and values.

Things like women's rights, capital punishments for apostates, and other parts of Shariah law go against my beliefs in freedom of religion and expression.

I'm still learning, so if any one could explain these points to me better, I'll be very grateful.
Well...yes indeed you will find contradictions and you will find things in common as well.
When Islam first appeared in Arabia, it contradicted many values and aspects of the culture then.
I find contradictions between Islam and my culture on many occasions.

It's expected, since Islam is not just a set of creeds and rituals, it's a comprehensive view of life.

We must be careful. Being raised in a certain environment, getting used to the surrounding values and practices doesn't necessarily mean that the values and the culture of my environment are truthful or that I should judge anything else in their accordance. It's good to examine our culture with some skeptical eyes.
The early Muslims had to actually revolt against many values and practices of their society because they saw and believed in the truthfulness of Islam. They re-set themselves according to Islam. So the case became this and that value/practice go against Islam so I have a trouble with them, not the opposite.

I guess the question should be on what basis I have faith in Islam. Then the answer of "Am I willing to accept Islam as my guide and final reference i.e. submit?" naturally follows.
 
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Sahar

Well-Known Member
Islam has its views on the issue of women...you didn't specify which of them makes you uncomfortable.

As for apostasy: Gharib posted two links from onIslam that explains the punishment of apostasy, I on the other hand post another link from the same webiste that explains that apostasy doesn't require a capital punishment in Islam and it is also my belief:
Is Apostasy a Capital Crime in Islam? - Islamic Themes - Shari`ah - OnIslam.net

The latter view is compatible with Islamic principles like:
[And say [O Muhammad]: 'The truth [has now come] you're your Sustainer: let, then, him or her who wills, believe in it, and let him or her who wills, reject it.] (Al-Kahf 18:29)

[There shall be no coercion in matters of faith.] (Al-Baqarah 2:256)

[And so, [O Prophet,] exhort them; your task is only to exhort. You can not compel them [to believe].] (Al-Ghashiyah 88:21-22)
 
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