Muslim and Western?

[Gharib]

Islam has its views on the issue of women...you didn't specify which of them makes you uncomfortable.

As for apostasy: Gharib posted two links from onIslam that explains the punishment of apostasy, I on the other hand post another link from the same webiste that explains that apostasy doesn't require a capital punishment in Islam and it is also my belief:
Is Apostasy a Capital Crime in Islam? - Islamic Themes - Shari`ah - OnIslam.net

The latter view is compatible with Islamic principles like:
[And say [O Muhammad]: 'The truth [has now come] you're your Sustainer: let, then, him or her who wills, believe in it, and let him or her who wills, reject it.] (Al-Kahf 18:29)

[There shall be no coercion in matters of faith.] (Al-Baqarah 2:256)

[And so, [O Prophet,] exhort them; your task is only to exhort. You can not compel them [to believe].] (Al-Ghashiyah 88:21-22)

I have actually been thinking of contacting the website about why they have two contradicting rulings on the matter of apostasy.

I believe the punishment is death as that is what the Sahaba practiced and that is what the Tabi'in have taught in their Madhhabs.

 

[Aamer]

I have actually been thinking of contacting the website about why they have two contradicting rulings on the matter of apostasy.

I believe the punishment is death as that is what the Sahaba practiced and that is what the Tabi'in have taught in their Madhhabs.

Yeah F it dude! Let's kill everybody! Cuz the Quran says to right here...

[4:89] They hope that you will reject as they have rejected, then you will be the same. Do not take any of them as allies until they emigrate in the cause of God. If they turn away, then take them and kill them wherever you find them; and do not take from them any ally or supporter.

But wait! Just to be sure. Let's read what Allah says right after that...

[4:90] Except for those who reach a people with whom you have a covenant, or if they come to you with a reluctance in their chests to fight you or to fight their own people. Had God willed He would have given them strength and they would have fought you. But if they retire from you, and do not fight you, and they offer you peace; then God does not make for you a path against them.

Hmm... Sounds almost like Allah is saying it's only ok to kill in cases of self defense.

Let's see what it says about how to treat non believers here...

[60:8] God does not prohibit you from those who have not fought you because of your faith, nor drove you out of your homes, that you deal kindly and equitably with them. For God loves the equitable.

WHAT?? We can only kill them if they are driving us out of our homes or prohibiting us from practicing Islam??? So unfair!! I don't get to kill ANYBODY for fun! This sucks!!!

Well maybe I can pretend 4:89 means it's ok to kill apostates and unbelievers. I mean God did say it, right?

[4:46] From among those who are Jewish are some WHO TAKE THE WORDS OUT OF CONTEXT, and they say: "We hear and disobey, and listen but let not any listen, and shepherd us," in a twisting of their tongues and as a mockery of the faith! And had they said: "We hear and obey, and listen, and watch over us," it would have been better for them and more upright; but God has cursed them for their disbelief, they do not believe except very little.

WHAT??? We're not allowed to take Gods words out of context either? Not fair! The Jews got to do it!!!

Ok.. You know what.. The Quran just isn't supporting my desire to kill. Let's just ask our scholars for permission. I'm sure they know better than me. Cuz after all, Quran is so difficult to understand (despite multiple translations to refer to in every language imaginable)...

[54:17] And We made the Quran easy to understand. But is there anyone who wants to pay attention?

Let's just have one of our sheikhs give a fatwa or something. We'll just add to Gods laws. I'm sure he won't mind. A little murder never hurt nobody...

[16:116] And do not say, as to what your tongues falsely describe: "This is lawful and that is unlawful;" that you seek to invent lies about God. Those who invent lies about God will not succeed.

WHAT??? We can't even take a vote amongst the scholars and decide what is lawful and what is unlawful? Totally unfair!

Let's just refer to Hadith. I'm sure we can find something that says it's cool to kill apostates and unbelievers. I'm sure God forgot to mention a few major points in Quran. I mean, how can everything we need to know be in ONE book? We probably need to follow man made books to complete the points God forgot to make in Quran...

[7:52] And We have given them with a Book which is FULLY DETAILED with knowledge; a guidance and a mercy to those who believe.

CRAP!!! Now what? Anyone wanna give a fatwa! I haven't killed anyone in a week. Somebody help. This is totally not fair. I have a long beard, Islamic apparel, stylin prayer cap and everything. Can I not get one murder in before I eat my halal hamburger after Juma? Hook a brotha up!!!

 

[Gharib]

Aamer, if you could see Qur'anists through my eyes you'd understand.

 

[Monotheist 101]

Aamer, if you could see Qur'anists through my eyes you'd understand.

You fail to grasp it does not matter what you see, what you see is not what Aamer is going to be judged upon, It is what is in is Heart and his Actions that will be judged.

 

[Gharib]

You fail to grasp it does not matter what you see, what you see is not what Aamer is going to be judged upon, It is what is in is Heart and his Actions that will be judged.

I wasn't talking about that.

 

[Sahar]

I have actually been thinking of contacting the website about why they have two contradicting rulings on the matter of apostasy.

We can say that onIslam is kind of pluralistic...they try to present the different opinions among the Sunni rank, with more emphasis on the moderate Fiqh schools.

I believe the punishment is death as that is what the Sahaba practiced and that is what the Tabi'in have taught in their Madhhabs

Did you read the article?

 

[Rational_Mind]

We can say that onIslam is kind of pluralistic...they try to present the different opinions among the Sunni rank, with more emphasis on the moderate Fiqh schools.

I think he has got a point though. The two opinions are millions of shades apart. The site is providing only further confusion to the person who asked the questions. This is not a small matter with little impact, this is somebody's life.

I cannot imagine how one can sit on the wall between such differing opinions.

 

[Sahar]

I think he has got a point though. The two opinions are millions of shades apart. The site is providing only further confusion to the person who asked the questions.

There is a difference of opinions regarding many topics in Islam. It's honest and good to let the Muslim see that and he can't be blamed if he chose any of these opinions.

As for the apostasy punishment, the hadd is the traditional view among scholars and ordinary Muslims. There are a few others who see it differently as explained in Dr. Jamal Badawi's article.

This is not a small matter with little impact, this is somebody's life.

I agree, but we also know that the majority of Muslim countries don't implement such punishment.

And at this point, what you can do is to present the opposing view with good reasoning and based on evidence from the religious texts as well.

 

[Rational_Mind]

There is a difference of opinions regarding many topics in Islam. It's honest and good to let the Muslim see that and he can't be blamed if he chose any of these opinions.

As for the apostasy punishment, the hadd is the traditional view among scholars and ordinary Muslims. There are a few others who see it differently as explained in Dr. Jamal Badawi's article.


I agree, but we also know that the majority of Muslim countries don't implement such punishment.

And at this point, what you can do is to present the opposing view with good reasoning and based on evidence from the religious texts as well.

Death for Apostasy has been the cause of much bloodshed in the East. A topic that has punishment of death and goes against "no compulsion in religion" is quite a major issue. I can see why is disheartens many converts. I would rather not discuss it further here because it will turn into another debate without conclusion, unfortunately some Muslims just enjoy bloodshed.

 

[Gharib]

Death for Apostasy has been the cause of much bloodshed in the East. A topic that has punishment of death and goes against "no compulsion in religion" is quite a major issue. I can see why is disheartens many converts. I would rather not discuss it further here because it will turn into another debate without conclusion, unfortunately some Muslims just enjoy bloodshed.

Yes, thank you. I have 2 very big canine teeth with blood dripping down from them.

 

[Gharib]

We can say that onIslam is kind of pluralistic...they try to present the different opinions among the Sunni rank, with more emphasis on the moderate Fiqh schools.

But that causes more confusion. It leaves an open door for lay men to come to their own conclusions which is wrong.

Did you read the article?

I just did now, I thought it was another article which I had read many times before, I had never read this one.

I can see many errors in his argument. If you wish I can open a new thread in the DIR and go over it and explain how this view is incorrect.

In my post I said I am of this opinion because that is what the Sahaba practiced and is what the Madhhabs teach. So for someone to come about some 1400 years latter and say that the verses of the Qur'an do not mention a punishment for apostasy and that the hadith who do prescribe a punishment are in contradiction means that the Sahaba were all wrong in their battle against the apostates.

I will actually open a new thread in the DIR and explain how the ruling on apostasy in the article you posted is wrong.

 

[Rational_Mind]

Yes, thank you. I have 2 very big canine teeth with blood dripping down from them.

Your welcome. Peace be on you.

 

[Monotheist 101]

I'm all about Peace and Love, and leaving issues that seem confusing or conflicting to the better Judgement of Allah.

My logical argument against the death penalty would be, why end someones life and rid him of the chance to repent. I mean someone dead has 0% chance to come back and accept Islam, but if you let them be there is a 0.01% chance that they will will turn back to Allah and father Muslim children.

I hold the opinion that some of the Hadith maybe outdated.

This is what I found in the Quran:

Let there be no compulsion in the religion: Clearly the Right Path (i.e. Islam) is distinct from the crooked path.
—Qur'an, [Quran 2:256]
​

A section of the 'People of the Book' (Jews and Christians) says: "Believe in the morning what is revealed to the believers (Muslims), but reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may (themselves) turn back (from Islam).
—Qur'an, [Quran 3:72]
​

But those who reject faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of faith, never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have (of set purpose) gone astray.
—Qur'an, [Quran 3:90]
​

Those who blasphemed and back away from the ways of Allah and die as blasphemers, Allah shall not forgive them.
—Qur'an, [Quran 4:48]
​

Those who believe, then reject faith, then believe (again) and (again) reject faith, and go on increasing in unbelief, – Allah will not forgive them nor guide them on the way.
—Qur'an, [Quran 4:137]
​

Nowhere is the Quran pointing towards the judgment of Men in this matter, He is saying "He" will not forgive them. (and I would imagine if they die in that state of disbelief)

 

[Monotheist 101]

"then go on adding to their defiance of faith"

"and go on increasing in unbelief"

By imposing the penalty we are ridding them of the chance of doing the above mentioned and at the same time the opposite of the above mentioned.

"and die as blasphemers"

why do we want them to fulfill this condition so badly?

 

[Sahar]

But that causes more confusion. It leaves an open door for lay men to come to their own conclusions which is wrong.

I don't know exactly what you mean by that. When you are aware of the different interpretations, you may follow a specific one and you can't be blamed for that. And if this is coming to your own conclusions, I don't know what is wrong with that!

For example, some scholars say niqab is obligatory, another group says it's not required and a few others say it's not even recommended...me as a Muslim woman follows one of these opinions...the one that made more sense to me in regards to my intellectual reasoning and to what could be more honest to the sacred texts; the Qur'an and the Sunnah. I don't see this disagreement as confusion but as mercy.

I just did now, I thought it was another article which I had read many times before, I had never read this one.

I can see many errors in his argument. If you wish I can open a new thread in the DIR and go over it and explain how this view is incorrect.

In my post I said I am of this opinion because that is what the Sahaba practiced and is what the Madhhabs teach. So for someone to come about some 1400 years latter and say that the verses of the Qur'an do not mention a punishment for apostasy and that the hadith who do prescribe a punishment are in contradiction means that the Sahaba were all wrong in their battle against the apostates.

I will actually open a new thread in the DIR and explain how the ruling on apostasy in the article you posted is wrong.

OK.

 

[F0uad]

Death for Apostasy has been the cause of much bloodshed in the East. A topic that has punishment of death and goes against "no compulsion in religion" is quite a major issue. I can see why is disheartens many converts. I would rather not discuss it further here because it will turn into another debate without conclusion, unfortunately some Muslims just enjoy bloodshed.

This is just wrong..


As for apostasy there are different opinions regarding this even among Sunni scholars and the Madhab jurists.

 

[Gharib]

Your welcome. Peace be on you.

Don't worry about it.

 

[Aamer]

It seems some people really care about the opinions of scholars and sheikhs and fiqhs and madhabs. I think we should care a little more about the opinion of Allah instead. I know it's a crazy concept!!

[9:74] They swear by God that they did not say it, while they had said the word of rejection, and they rejected after they had submitted, and they were concerned with what they could not possess; and they could not find any fault except that God and His messenger had enriched them from His bounty. If they repent it is better for them, and if they turn away, then GOD WILL PUNISH THEM severely in this world and the next. They will not have on the earth any ally or supporter.

Who punishes them? GOD

If you want to change this rule based on the words of some scholar on a power trip, you better be damn sure you're right. Because if you're not right and God didn't give you permission to kill apostates (which Quran has no evidence for), then you are supporting murder. You are supporting the taking of human life that was not yours to take. Let God handle such punishments. We should be worried about our own souls. Peace.

 

[F0uad]

It seems some people really care about the opinions of scholars and sheikhs and fiqhs and madhabs. I think we should care a little more about the opinion of Allah instead. I know it's a crazy concept!!

[9:74] They swear by God that they did not say it, while they had said the word of rejection, and they rejected after they had submitted, and they were concerned with what they could not possess; and they could not find any fault except that God and His messenger had enriched them from His bounty. If they repent it is better for them, and if they turn away, then GOD WILL PUNISH THEM severely in this world and the next. They will not have on the earth any ally or supporter.

Who punishes them? GOD

If you want to change this rule based on the words of some scholar on a power trip, you better be damn sure you're right. Because if you're not right and God didn't give you permission to kill apostates (which Quran has no evidence for), then you are supporting murder. You are supporting the taking of human life that was not yours to take. Let God handle such punishments. We should be worried about our own souls. Peace.

With your logic a rapist can keep on raping, there should be no judge or laws according you for these behaviors?
Allah(swt) gave us laws, intellect and guides to correct ourselfs moreover its commanded to follow the messenger(saws) how can we follow him without authentic reports?

 

[Rational_Mind]

It seems some people really care about the opinions of scholars and sheikhs and fiqhs and madhabs. I think we should care a little more about the opinion of Allah instead. I know it's a crazy concept!!

[9:74] They swear by God that they did not say it, while they had said the word of rejection, and they rejected after they had submitted, and they were concerned with what they could not possess; and they could not find any fault except that God and His messenger had enriched them from His bounty. If they repent it is better for them, and if they turn away, then GOD WILL PUNISH THEM severely in this world and the next. They will not have on the earth any ally or supporter.

Who punishes them? GOD

If you want to change this rule based on the words of some scholar on a power trip, you better be damn sure you're right. Because if you're not right and God didn't give you permission to kill apostates (which Quran has no evidence for), then you are supporting murder. You are supporting the taking of human life that was not yours to take. Let God handle such punishments. We should be worried about our own souls. Peace.

It is nice to see your opinion. I will also address this topic in April Inshallah when exams are over. Currently your statement may not benefit active members of this thread as their perspective is quite different. In their opinion the opinion of non-Prophet forms an integral part of Islamic Shariah. Since you are not a Scholar from the past your views are seen as highly likely to be innovations. Moreover, I think it is first important to establish the rightful status of the Quran which has been left as a book discarded. Unless these things are established first the discussion may mostly benefit converts. In the past the common ground among Muslims was the Holy Quran, but this is not the case today, unfortunately. This has been the most damaging part to Islam the cause for almost all disagreements and sectarianism.