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Muslim and Western?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by D-MITCH777, Mar 4, 2013.

  1. D-MITCH777

    D-MITCH777 New Member

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    A couple of months ago I converted to Islam, but since then I have gone through some trouble with my new faith. Although I still have faith, I find that some times it contradicts with my own Western culture and values.

    Things like women's rights, capital punishments for apostates, and other parts of Shariah law go against my beliefs in freedom of religion and expression.

    I'm still learning, so if any one could explain these points to me better, I'll be very grateful.
     
    Matemkar likes this.
  2. F0uad

    F0uad Well-Known Member

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    Mashallah i am happy you found Islam!


    Wow this is a hard one yes the Islamic core teachings do contradict some of the Western value's and aspects of life. I personally wonder if Islam was used as a example in the West to follow would there still be the high criminal rate, women abuses and so forth.

    I see Islam as fixing the Western Problems instead of contradicting it but i think it depends on your views.
     
  3. Treks

    Treks Quax's pirozhki

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    1,179
    Religion:
    None. Wannabe philosopher.
    If Islam could 'fix' the West of it's problems, presumably those problems already don't exist in Muslim countries. Are Muslim countries free of crime and women abuses?
     
  4. F0uad

    F0uad Well-Known Member

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    Nope i never made such claim because corruption always exist among men, what i said is that Islam can fix some of those problems and not destroy all bad things.
    I don't know any real Islamic country that abides to full Islamic laws, do you?

    I am talking about how Islam can govern and enhance the Moral values of society instead of a Material world view.
     
  5. Assad91

    Assad91 Shi'ah Ali

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    1,814
    Brother I am from America, so I can relate.

    But in short, Islam even contradicts other, more islamically historic cultures as well.

    Also, educate yourself on womens rights. And other issues you have. And if you truly believe that Allah legislated the Shariah, then remember it is not shariah which is wrong (How could Allah be wrong?) but us westerners.
     
  6. Treks

    Treks Quax's pirozhki

    Messages:
    1,179
    Religion:
    None. Wannabe philosopher.
    Thanks for the clarification - I didn't get that 'some' factor from your initial post.

    I dont know much about the extent to which Sharia is implemented in any Islamic countries.
     
  7. Gharib

    Gharib I want Khilafah back

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    9,793
    Religion:
    Islam
    Masha Allah, welcome to Islam. Congratulations.

    My post may appear as rude to you and possibly other Muslims but I mean this in the best of ways.

    Islam does not contradict anything. The teachings of Islam have not changed over time so what our Prophet salallahu alayhi wa salam left for us is what we have. If anything, we as humans contradict Islam by disobeying the commands of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala.

    To be a Muslim means you have to fit into Islam, it's not Islam that has to fit you.

    If you change one little thing because you dislike it then it wouldn't be Islam that you are following.

    I will post again later in reply to the matters of concern to you.
     
    YmirGF likes this.
  8. Le Neigeden d'antan

    Le Neigeden d'antan New Member

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    44
    The "values" which the OP mentions in his post are neither "Western" nor "Eastern" nor "Islamic" values. They are values manufactured in the wake of the revolutions of the 18th century.

    But even so, those values are inconsistent in some Western countries. Offending certain groups can be punished by law in some European countries, for instance. Certain symbols and memes of civic religion reach an exaltation of cult-like proportions.

    If I can draw examples from European History, the modern notion of "liberty" (as opposed to the notion known throughout the classical world and in the Islamic world) implies that religion is somehow antithetical to freedom. This was certainly one huge point which was the driving force behind the anti-clericalism in the French Revolution.

    The Catholic Church, however, missed nothing about liberty. Always a defender of free will, the Catholic Church in no way failed to address the liberty of the human will in the writings of her great minds. It has always taught that man is endowed with free will, and is thereby accountable for his actions. Because of his free will, he is capable of merit, and therefore capable, with the help of divine grace, of achieving eternal salvation.

    If we consider Shariah from the perspective of social cohesion, we might understand that some form of rules to be applied to everyone must exist for the common good. It is obvious that human beings should be free in those areas which are truly indifferent, but constrained with regard to those things which are necessary. Thus the observance of the law of God and of the natural law pertain necessarily to the common good, and consequently civil governments are duty bound to outlaw the transgressions of these laws.
     
    illykitty likes this.
  9. sandandfoam

    sandandfoam Well-Known Member

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    11,158
    I'm still learning too.
    As I see it a religion found me. I already have a culture and I remain a pacifist who loathes violence, and also advocatres feminism and freedom of religion. I have no intention of altering my views and as I understand Islam, Islam is a religion that perfectly fits pacifist, tolerant hippy types. It is a religion of peace.
     
  10. Pastek

    Pastek Sunni muslim

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    1,781
    Can you explain ? Women have rights in Islam

    From my understanding, the one who wants to disbelieve is free to do so.
    God guides whom He wants, and this person can come back to God, we never knows what life reserved us.

    Also, it was different in the time of the Prophet (saw) because those who disbelieved, rejoined the ennemies.

    Like what ?


    I think that if you grew up in a western country you can see things differently.
    I live abroad too, so i understand what you mean.
    But each time i read the Qu'ran, i know it's from God, so i try to understand it.
     
  11. Union

    Union Well-Known Member Premium Member

    Messages:
    1,541
    Religion:
    Islam
    I can see the agony of an innocent heart...
    Or a battle between the brain and heart...

    This is your high time to identify the real Islam and the distorted Islam . The so called Shariah law practiced and propagated by Shia and Sunni Muslims are not from GOD , the Almighty . Those are mainly generated from Hadeeth literature created about +250 years after the demise of Prophet by the enemies of Islam .

    Qur'an is the only source of Islam and all laws should be deduced from it for Islam . Please pay a regular visit in Quranist DIR in this forum , which solely relying on Qur'an only .

    And for the remedy of your agony , please visit the following links , you will find how Qur'an is liberal on viewing personal faith and freedom of choice :

    Rules of apostasy in Qur'an : don't kill them
    Is Male=2 x Female in Qur’an? Re.:Inheritance Distribution
    Is Male=2 x Female in Qur’an? Re.:Testimony
    Is traditional women Hijab/Burqa/Niaqb authorize by Almighty GOD?
    'Hoor' for men in paradise , what about women?

    Many more other topics may can help you to realize that the traditional Shariah laws are actually in violation with laws and systems prescribed by Almighty GOD in Qur'an . Please feel free to open any thread in Quranist DIR section if you need to inquire anything .

    May ALLAH , the Merciful help your endeavor in learning Islam .
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2013
  12. F0uad

    F0uad Well-Known Member

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    3,401
    You know these kind of posts are very offensive..
    You could have just said that you don't agree with the Sunni and Shia sharia and end it there.
     
  13. Union

    Union Well-Known Member Premium Member

    Messages:
    1,541
    Religion:
    Islam
    Your response is uncalled . Let the OP do a research and let him tell me if I commit offense or not .
     
  14. Assad91

    Assad91 Shi'ah Ali

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    Talk about prostylizing
     
  15. D-MITCH777

    D-MITCH777 New Member

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    Like what ?


    I think that if you grew up in a western country you can see things differently.
    I live abroad too, so i understand what you mean.
    But each time i read the Qu'ran, i know it's from God, so i try to understand it.[/QUOTE]

    I know that women have certain rights in Islam but things like the testimony of a woman being half that of a man. I can't see the logic behind this.

    Dhimmitude is another thing. Why should someone have to pay to believe in? I know that it is for protection, but I think that non-muslims should be able to join the army, and hold public office if they want to.
     
  16. D-MITCH777

    D-MITCH777 New Member

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    92
    Thanks I'll take a look at the links.
     
  17. Aamer

    Aamer Truth Seeker

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    Salaam brother. The things you objected to above are not Quranic concepts. They come from other sources. As a Quranist Muslim, I only believe in Quran being from God and Quran being complete. Any added laws are going against Gods instructions. I'm not trying to start a debate. I'm just starting that there are Muslims who don't believe in laws not mentioned in Quran. Peace.

    [6:115] And the word of your Lord has been completed with the truth and justice; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.

    [16:116] And do not say, as to what your tongues falsely describe: "This is lawful and that is unlawful;" that you seek to invent lies about God. Those who invent lies about God will not succeed.
     
  18. F0uad

    F0uad Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,401
    These words are not offensive at all:


    distorted Islam .

    The so called Shariah law practiced and propagated by Shia and Sunni Muslims are not from GOD

    enemies of Islam
     
  19. Treks

    Treks Quax's pirozhki

    Messages:
    1,179
    Religion:
    None. Wannabe philosopher.
    Isn't that only in terms of business transactions?
    From my POV as a non-Muslim I can kind of see the logic if the women at the time the Quran was revealed weren't very literate or educated in math, etc.

    Not sure how that translates into today's time in countries where female children are educated in math and in some cases are professionals in business law, etc. They would still need two women to sign, say, a mortgage loan for a house, right?
     
  20. Rational_Mind

    Rational_Mind Ahmadi Muslim

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    1,296
    “Procure two witnesses from among your men; and if two men be
    not available, then one man and two women, of such as you like
    as witnesses, so that if either of the two women should be in
    danger of forgetting, the other may refresh her memory.” (2:283).

    Let me try to clarify this in simple points.

    1. Islam has taught that Women should not need to appear in court as a general principle when dealing with financial transactions, preference is given that Men who generally handle financial transactions would appear. Islam minimizes that amount of interaction between Women and Males unless they be married, family, or such as a Teacher and Student, etc. If the case is such that there are no Men as witnesses in such a case a Women witness may appear.

    2. The verse itself has given the reason for why two Women are needed. It says "so that if either of the two women should be in danger of forgetting, the other may refresh her memory.". When financial transactions are done, it is usually between two Males, when both appear in court they can recall that day, the discussion, where they where, and such factors jog up the memory. In the case of Women they are only secondary witness who are knowledgeable of the transaction, often the wives. Hence, their memory would not be refreshed by a social interaction. For the reason that Women have not been involved socially in the transaction they can falter in memory, a person who did the transaction should generally be able to recall better, especially when speaking with the other party.

    3. This verse does not state what has been concluded often from it. Let me exemplify. If a transaction occurs, there is a male witness and two female witness, and one female witness passes away. So when the appear in court the male's testimony doesn't have more strength over the other, having to female witness is a safeguard to ensure that they have not forgotten. If this safeguard is not possible and the judge finds that the testimony of the male witness is faulty while the female witness is strong then he will and must judge in fairness to the female witness. Nowhere does it say that the female has less right, it simply states that they are more likely to forget, not because they are any less than males, simply because they are not the front line of financial transactions in a Islamic society.
     
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