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'Man was created in the image of G-d'

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Then God said, “Let us make human beings in our Tzelem, in our demut, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, a and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

Tzelem actually means photographed. Demut means Image.

Dont take everything literally. When God says he sent Moses as a God to the Pharaoh he does not mean he creates another God. When he calls Ephraim and Israel his first born sons, he does not mean they are his biological sons.

God does not look like anything that could be photographed or to create an image of.

When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own Demut, in his own Tzelem; and he named him Seth. - Genesis 5:3

Does not mean Seth looked just like Adam.

Whoever sheds human blood, by human beings shall their blood be shed; for in the Tzelem of God has God made humankind - Genesis 9:6

What the bible means is that Humans are made to be intellectual and go by strategy and thinking, rather than going about life like animals. We have different laws and a way of life. That is why God says in Genesis 9:6 that humans are made in his image, that's why we cannot shed the blood of another human. The same word Tzelem or Picture.

When it comes to God it is not literal. Hope it is understood.

Peace.



We have tried to explain to him over-and-over, that it is being used in a metaphorical sense, - but he just goes on-and-on. :yes:



EDIT - I forgot to add -


How can Tzelem, mean photograph - back when they had no cameras?




*
 
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Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
God does not look like anything that could be photographed or to create an image of.
Well, not according to you maybe.

When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own Demut, in his own Tzelem; and he named him Seth. - Genesis 5:3

Does not mean Seth looked just like Adam.
It may not mean that Seth "looked just like Adam," but it definitely meant that Seth was the same kind of being as Adam. To me, that's just one more piece of evidence that God does have a physical appearance. You insist on not taking the passages about God creating man in His own image and after His likeness literally, and are convinced that He looks nothing like us. But Seth obviously resembled Adam to the extent that we're told he was in Adam's likeness and image. You've got virtually identical word usage in passages just a few chapters apart, and yet you want to say that they mean entirely different things.
 

s2a

Heretic and part-time (skinny) Santa impersonator
Well, not according to you maybe.

It may not mean that Seth "looked just like Adam," but it definitely meant that Seth was the same kind of being as Adam. To me, that's just one more piece of evidence that God does have a physical appearance. You insist on not taking the passages about God creating man in His own image and after His likeness literally, and are convinced that He looks nothing like us. But Seth obviously resembled Adam to the extent that we're told he was in Adam's likeness and image. You've got virtually identical word usage in passages just a few chapters apart, and yet you want to say that they mean entirely different things.

HI Katz!

I care nothing of the subject in question (I believe you know my perspective in this), I just wished to say HI! Long time no interact :)

For any others...if you mess with Katz, better bring your "A" Game. :) She has working claws ya know...
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
We have tried to explain to him over-and-over, that it is being used in a metaphorical sense, - but he just goes on-and-on. :yes:



EDIT - I forgot to add -


How can Tzelem, mean photograph - back when they had no cameras?




*

It doesnt mean photograph exactly. Lol. This is for your understanding.

Cmon, why do you make me smile.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Why do some people just say things because they have to with no analysis?
I think we're pretty much all guilty of that, don't you?

So I am curious, what does God look like to you?
I believe that He looks essentially like us. Nobody's a clone of God, but we're all created in His image, after His likeness. We are the same species as God, and we have the potential to eventually become like Him in all respects.

The first chapter of Genesis deals with the physical creation of this earth. Once the earth itself was created, God created each of the thousands kinds of life. It is emphasized that all life will reproduce "after its kind." And then the account ends with God saying that man will be "in our image, after our likeness." I don't believe the account went from literal in one sentence to symbolic in the next.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Katzpur, what is your view of the information provided here?
With regards to the statement you italicized...

"The full import of these terms can be grasped only within the broader context of biblical literature and against the background of ancient Near Eastern analogues."


I agree that it's a huge mistake to take a couple of words or even sentences out of context. Admittedly, I don't have much a background in ancient Near Eastern analogues, so I couldn't even begin to comment intellligently from that perspective (and I do prefer that my comments be intelligent, when given an option). I do believe, however, that there is more evidence in the Bible in support of an anthropomophic God than there is against one.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
I agree that it's a huge mistake to take a couple of words or even sentences out of context. Admittedly, I don't have much a background in ancient Near Eastern analogues, so I couldn't even begin to comment intellligently from that perspective (and I do prefer that my comments be intelligent, when given an option). I do believe, however, that there is more evidence in the Bible in support of an anthropomophic God than there is against one.
Might it not be more correct to say that there is more evidence in the Bible in support of the proposition that the author was positing an anthropomophic God ...?
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
A Jewish Adam who is a hermaphrodite and has both male and female sex organs was not "standard Jewish Doctrine" in earlier time periods and to different Jews.

We've already discussed the Jewish interpretation that created an Adam that was a hermaphrodite, with both male and female organs and the ability to have sex with itself so that it could procreate children without needing a female.

The type of Judaism that created this ungainly and distasteful version of Adam was NOT necessarily even the normative Jewish doctrine since Jewish doctrines differed among the different types and times of jewish history.


1) Jewish apostasy and varying doctrines between it's various schisms.


Apostasy, as a generic historical principle affected the Jews just as it affects all other Abrahamic religions. The Jews apostatized from specific religious principles, and a new prophet in another age attempts to steer them back towards more correct belief system and, based on their ability and willingness, they respond, but only to have this cycle repeat itself again.

Jewish Religious Apostasy – Like Christianity, Judaism, even in the earliest ages, has been characterized by multiple schisms and types and movements characterized by differing beliefs. For example, one can even be atheist and still remain Jewish.



2) Normative jewish beliefs change over time and are different among the different jewish groups

The predominant jewish groups and their influences changes over time and in different places. For example, The biblical Pharisees/rabbinical groups and Sadducees/priestly groups were two influential groups mentioned in the biblical text, yt, after the destruction of the second temple approximately 70 a.d., the Sadducees as a priestly elite, along with their Judaic influence is inconsequential. Judaism, and it’s great influential players evolved and changed just like other religions.



3) Different Jews, having different beliefs created different biblical translations
Thus, it should come as no surprise that the Jewish movements responsible for writing the 3rd century b.c. LXX did not believe the same as the Masoretic writers creating an “official” Jewish bible (tanakh) almost 1000 years later. These two groups of Jews were not the same and differing beliefs are reflected in their translations as well.

Though the Rabbinical leadership may have held to an interpretation that created a hermaphrodite Adam who had both male and female sex organs, the Jews who translated the LXX in 300 b.c. clearly believed that the man Adam was created in the virtual image of God (since he looks like his creator to the extent that he is mistaken FOR his creator by angels).



4) Jewish bibles and other sacred texts varied historically and are incomplete
Keep in mind that it is not merely Jewish religion that undergoes change, evolution and apostasy, but the early Jewish oral traditions tended to vary much more as oral stories and transmission than in later generations when they became written Tanakhs (Hebrew bibles) that could be copied, especially in the later ages of printing. Each step improved stabilization of the text. Even then, until they became standardized by whatever group predominated influentially, multiple textual versions of these oral stories existed.

For example, the Palestinian Talmud tells us that there were three different versions of the Torah in the Temple and that a forth one was made from consensus between the three. They may have varied much more than the simple textual examples in the Talmud reveal to us.

For example, Whiston makes the point that the Jewish Historian Josephus’ was probably using yet another official copy of the Tanakh from the temple which was given to him by Vespasian as a source for his description of Jewish History. Josephus’ history as revealed from the version of the Torah that he was given, varies a great deal historically from later current rabbinic and mishnic texts , as well as from latter “standardized” Hebrew bibles. For example, his version has Moses considering three plans to escape the impending Egyptian armies (parting of the waters, parting of the mountains, flight through the air), rather than simply parting the red sea.

The Dead Sea Scrolls revealed a Hebrew bible text that was almost a millennia older than the prior jewish texts and allowed, in many cases, wonderful corrections to the text. Such corrections and discoveries of missing pieces are profoundly important. Even missing portions of the early Talmud continue being discovered which make modern versions more intelligible.



5) Incompleteness and changes to Jewish texts has been known for millennia.


Just as recent discoveries allow for Jewish correction of missing portions of the Talmud, other continuing discoveries allow for correction of Old Testament Text.

As Justyn Martyr claimed in his Debate with the Jew Trypho, there are Jewish narratives that have changed and some of the lost or corrupted data that would have made the scriptures more clear that Jesus was the very Messiah. (Whether the Jews would have accepted Jesus if such changes had not occurred in their scriptures is another matter). The fact that much of the text is missing has been known for ages and newer discoveries are allowing us to improve biblical text that is both incorrect and / or what is missing from the text.

An example of a lost passage of scripture is from the DSS text of Samuel: The missing paragraph belongs to 1 Samuel 11:1. It presents forty nine words (49) which are missing in the Hebrew Bible as well as in other Jewish texts in this single verse.

With the restoration of this passage, the final verse in Chapter 10 transitions smoothly and with a better understanding as we enter the first verse in chapter 11. With such textual restorations of the Jewish text, the entire context of the story can be put into it’s proper perspective:

Missing text in the Jewish record is NOT a rare occurrence. There are also smaller, but significant additions in verses 11, 13, 18, 22, 23 and 24 IN JUST THE FIRST CHAPTER OF SAMUEL. This is partly the reason the New International Version Bible prefers the DSS textual readings over the traditional hebrew text. They are not the only bible trying to correct corruptions and deletions from the traditional Jewish text. "Today’s English version"; "Revised Standard Version", the "New Revised Standard Version", "The New English Bible", The "New American Bible", etc. are ALL using DSS corrections over the prior traditional Hebrew Text.

It is not just the "few words" that are missing, nor even just stories, but entire BOOKS that are missing from the current Jewish narratives.

The fact that jewish (and christian) texts have errors and are incomplete can account for some errors in theology as well as varying theological positions among different Jewish and Christian movements.



The take away principle is that Judaism has always undergone the same tendency to apostasy and schism in both doctrine and practices that plagued early Christianity and the various versions of the creation of Adam (and many other important base doctrines) reflect the specific interpretation of various groups of Jews who are not the same in belief nor practice as early Jews. Thus, when one claims a specific belief is “Jewish” in orgin or nature, it probably only represents a specific belief that was taught by one group of Jews at a certain time period. The same is true of Jewish doctrinal claims.

The Jewish doctrine that Adam was created as a hermaphrodite with two differing sets of sex organs that may have originated from Jews is no more Jewish than the doctrine that Adam was created in the Image of his creator that may have originated from another group of Jews (and Christians) interpreting the same, or a different text.

Clear
δρακειειω
 
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Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Might it not be more correct to say that there is more evidence in the Bible in support of the proposition that the author was positing an anthropomophic God ...?
Aren't authors really all we have to go on, whether of the Bible or any other piece of literature? I mean, you've made a good point, but I happen to believe they were inspired by God and recorded truth as it was revealed to them. That's not to say that I believe every word in the Bible to be God-breathed. Instead, I see it as a condensed record of God's dealings with various chosen prophets over a very lengthy period of time. From my perspective, they all seem to be in agreement as to the nature of God -- and that He is not merely a formless substance that fills the universe. I believe there are passages which make that pretty clear.
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Firedragon :

I am curious, do you know if the early Muslims believed in the Jewish interpretation God, creating Adam with both sets of sexual organs and capable of sexual reproduction without the need for a female? I do NOT get this impression from reading the Holy Quran or from the few hadith I am familiar with.

thanks in advance for the information.

Clear
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Aren't authors really all we have to go on, whether of the Bible or any other piece of literature? I mean, you've made a good point, but I happen to believe they were inspired by God and recorded truth as it was revealed to them. That's not to say that I believe every word in the Bible to be God-breathed. Instead, I see it as a condensed record of God's dealings with various chosen prophets over a very lengthy period of time. From my perspective, they all seem to be in agreement as to the nature of God -- and that He is not merely a formless substance that fills the universe. I believe there are passages which make that pretty clear.
And you know that I deeply respect your right to believe that in part because you're incredibly cute.
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Hi Katz :

It is clear historically, that the early Judeo-Christian texts describe a god with anthropomorphic (i.e. shaped like man) qualities. It does not make clear if God MUST appear to man in this way, or if he chose this sort of appearance (and could chose a different appearance), but merely that he DID have anthropomorphic characteristics. Perhaps he could have chosen a different set of characteristics....(I don't know...)

Clear
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Hi Katz :

It is clear historically, that the early Judeo-Christian texts describe a god with anthropomorphic (i.e. shaped like man) qualities. It does not make clear if God MUST appear to man in this way, or if he chose this sort of appearance (and could chose a different appearance), but merely that he DID have anthropomorphic characteristics. Perhaps he could have chosen a different set of characteristics....(I don't know...)

Clear
I'll tell you what I find interesting. Most Christians I've talked to will readily acknowledge that God is often depicted as having a human form. They even say that He can take on a human form if He so desires. What's the big deal with believing that He naturally has a human form? If Jesus Christ was said to be "the express image of His [Father's] person," why are Christians so insistent that the Father is anything other than that? I seriously see people react almost with horror at the suggestion that the Father could have a human form, and yet they're fine with God (in the person of Jesus Christ) having one.

I also wonder how Christians would explain how Stephen could have seen "the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God." Why didn't Stephen simply say, "I saw the Son of Man surrounded by glory" or something of that sort? Wouldn't he have been able to recognize Christ as divine without also being able to see the Father? I would think it would have been pretty obvious to him one way or the other. Or was this just one more time when God decided to take on the appearance of a human?
 
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