Love the sinner hate the sin?

[dawny0826]

I've always thought the concept of loving the sinner and hating the sin to be pretty idiotic in the first place. Either you oppose something or you do not. For example, claiming to love a homosexual while condemning their homosexuality is not only contradictory but insulting. If I was on the receiving end of such feelings, I'd just ask you to save your "love" for people you think really deserve it.

I oppose characteristics of people but that doesn't automatically mean that I dislike or hate that person.

I loathe my father's alcoholism and the resulting temper and mood swings. But I love my father dearly. It's the alcoholism that I hate.

I hate being ridiculed for my beliefs by people that I know and love. I hate their ridicule...not them.

I hate tax hikes. But this doesn't mean that I hate the politicians who supported them.

Hating the sin...but loving the sinner. It IS possible.

 

[jeffrey]

I'd better be prepared to know what homosexuality is and to recognise it and to hate it, lest I go down that same path.

Umm... Afraid to in down that path... Have you had fantasies about someone of the same sex? It's the only reason I can see why you would be afraid to go down that path.

 

[jamaesi]

Is this even possible anymore? Every time I mention a hate for a sin, I automatically get labeled as hateful, spiteful, judgemental, hypocritical, un-christ-like, and a miriad of other insults (which, BTW, are directed at me, and not my "sin"). Is it now the societal expectation that I love sin, as well as the sinner? After all, Paul told us to be in the world, but not of the world. You can't do that without recognising sin and disliking it enough to stay away from it. Christ taught us to love our neighbour as ourself, not love everything the neighbour the does. Can you love the sinner and hate the sin?

When you tell someone they are a sinner practicing "evil"- especially for something they can not control- your response is not going to be a good one.

If you don't like something, don't practice it. Why must you hate?

 

[Todd]

Umm... Afraid to in down that path... Have you had fantasies about someone of the same sex? It's the only reason I can see why you would be afraid to go down that path.

I think what Aqua is trying to say is that we all sin according to the bible or other doctrine and that we are all capable of going down that path (whatever sin it may be). We all are tempted no matter what it might be.

I hate the sin of others just like I hate the sin in myself. We all sin according to my belief in the bible. I neither hate the person nor hate myself that sins, but I do hate the sin itself.

 

[michel]

Is this even possible anymore? Every time I mention a hate for a sin, I automatically get labeled as hateful, spiteful, judgemental, hypocritical, un-christ-like, and a miriad of other insults (which, BTW, are directed at me, and not my "sin"). Is it now the societal expectation that I love sin, as well as the sinner? After all, Paul told us to be in the world, but not of the world. You can't do that without recognising sin and disliking it enough to stay away from it. Christ taught us to love our neighbour as ourself, not love everything the neighbour the does. Can you love the sinner and hate the sin?

I think I can honestly, hand on heart, say "Yes".

I spent a long time, a few months ago, looking for guidance on this subject. I did a lot of meditation. One day, while praying, I had the "sudden glimpse of light" (as I can best describe it)...allways simultaneously accompanied by a 'rush' of energy through the head Chakra (basically, the top of the skull).

I understood God to be telling me that yes, I should pray for Saddam Hussein, I should pray for the devil. Prayer is Love, basically, pure and simply love.

It can only have been a few weeks ago that I came upon the Latin saying (and I think it may well have been here on the forum) "Omnia vincit amor; et nos cedamus amori" which means "Love conquers all things; let us too surrender to love " ( I believe it to have been used by Virgil).

For some reason, I had always believed that, and as far as I could, I have always aimed to follow that philosophy; have I managed ? No, of course not. I am human.

I bedlieve this encapsulates so beautifully the 'turn the other cheek" we are told to do as Christians, and my only hope is that the older I become, the better able I am to try to follow that dictate through every aspect of life. Not only is it (IMHO) God's dictate, but it so healthy...........never any bitterness, just acceptance, and Love.

I wish I could bottle it. :val:

 

[pdoel]

Oh, but it is my truth. How can you say that it isn't? Do you know what my truth is? Are you the worlds expert on Aqualung's Truth? Because if you are, you should publish your findings. They would be very helpful for me.

Why is it you can see this when people question your beliefs, but not when you question others?

I have no doubt that you are living a very good Mormon life, according to the truths that you have established.

So why can you not accept the fact that I am doing the same? I do not believe that homosexuality is a sin. I believe that I am living a good Christian life, the life that God wants me to lead.

Why do you question our truths and tell us we are wrong, but get so upset when someone questions yours?

 

[Nehustan]

I think I can honestly, hand on heart, say "Yes".

I spent a long time, a few months ago, looking for guidance on this subject. I did a lot of meditation. One day, while praying, I had the "sudden glimpse of light" (as I can best describe it)...allways simultaneously accompanied by a 'rush' of energy through the head Chakra (basically, the top of the skull).

I understood God to be telling me that yes, I should pray for Saddam Hussein, I should pray for the devil. Prayer is Love, basically, pure and simply love.

It can only have been a few weeks ago that I came upon the Latin saying (and I think it may well have been here on the forum) "Omnia vincit amor; et nos cedamus amori" which means "Love conquers all things; let us too surrender to love " ( I believe it to have been used by Virgil).

For some reason, I had always believed that, and as far as I could, I have always aimed to follow that philosophy; have I managed ? No, of course not. I am human.

I bedlieve this encapsulates so beautifully the 'turn the other cheek" we are told to do as Christians, and my only hope is that the older I become, the better able I am to try to follow that dictate through every aspect of life. Not only is it (IMHO) God's dictate, but it so healthy...........never any bitterness, just acceptance, and Love.

I wish I could bottle it. :val:

Hippy!!!!

 

[Quiddity]

Is this even possible anymore? Every time I mention a hate for a sin, I automatically get labeled as hateful, spiteful, judgemental, hypocritical, un-christ-like, and a miriad of other insults (which, BTW, are directed at me, and not my "sin"). Is it now the societal expectation that I love sin, as well as the sinner? After all, Paul told us to be in the world, but not of the world. You can't do that without recognising sin and disliking it enough to stay away from it. Christ taught us to love our neighbour as ourself, not love everything the neighbour the does. Can you love the sinner and hate the sin?

Possible? Certainly...although I don't always succeed.
To think sin is something tangible that cannot be seperated from the person is a lack of mercy and love.

 

[Aqualung]

However, at the same time you say that those without faith will not be judged. Only if you have a faith and you go against it, will you be judged.

But yet, there are pages upon pages upon pages where you tell people they are sinners. I dunno. That doesn't sound very accepting to me. That's preaching.

There are pages upon pages of me telling people that homosexuality is a sin. I have never once told anybody that they are sinning because they are homsexual, because I don't know if they are sinning.

Homosexuality is wrong. My Bible tells me it's wrong. It's a sin. Homosexuality is a horrible sin. Homosexuality is an abomination. If you go into homosexuality, you are a sinner. It's a sin, it's a sin it's a sin. I'm against homosexuality.

Wrong. a) I don't say the Bible tells me so. I say my religion tells me so. b) I never say that if you go into homosexuality then you are a sinner. I always, always speak about it in general - Homosexuality is a sin. Never specificially - this person is sinning because he is homosexual.

 

[cardero]

Love the sinner hate the sin?
I think of it more as "you have to forgive but you do not have to forget."

 

[Aqualung]

i like the way you can make these sarcastic comments to defend what you see as truth, but state that danisty is misguided in what she sees as her truth.

I didn't even pretend to know what her truth was. She asked if I thought she was sinning. I said no. Based on my truth, she was not sinning, but only misguided. Linwood actually said my truth was wrong. I said nothing of the sort to Danisty.

 

[Aqualung]

That is dogma and as I said it was "given" to you, you did not discover it through your own introspection.

It is a "truth" you adopted, it is not a "truth" you formulated within yourself.

It`s not "your truth", it`s Christianitys.

Ah, yes, because (I keep forgetting) you know whether or not I pray about things, or study things out in mind or not. I always forget that you are the leading expert on me.

 

[Aqualung]

But I do know that according to you, I shouldn't be doing it. Are you suggesting that my "misguidance" can only be a sin if I consider myself a Christian?

No, I'm saying that if you know, actually know, that you should not, under any circumstances, be following lucifer, then it's a sin.

 

[Aqualung]

Why is it you can see this when people question your beliefs, but not when you question others?

I never tell people their truth is wrong.

So why can you not accept the fact that I am doing the same?

I can accept it. I have no beef with you. I have beef with homosexuality in general, but I don't care that you are gay.

Why do you question our truths and tell us we are wrong, but get so upset when someone questions yours?

I don't tell you your truths are wrong. I tell you what my truths are (eg, homosexuality is sinful) and get bashed for it, as being hateful, judgemental, etc.

 

[pdoel]

No, I'm saying that if you know, actually know, that you should not, under any circumstances, be following lucifer, then it's a sin.

Ahhh. Then, according to your own definition, homosexuality is not a sin. I know, that homosexuality is not a sin, so it's not a sin.

 

[Aqualung]

Ahhh. Then, according to your own definition, homosexuality is not a sin. I know, that homosexuality is not a sin, so it's not a sin.

Untrue. :banghead3 According to my own definition, homosexuality is a sin, but not everybody who is homosexual is sinning.

 

[pdoel]

I never tell people their truth is wrong.

I can accept it. I have no beef with you. I have beef with homosexuality in general, but I don't care that you are gay.

I don't tell you your truths are wrong. I tell you what my truths are (eg, homosexuality is sinful) and get bashed for it, as being hateful, judgemental, etc.

I haven't said you are hateful. I may think you judge some, but, as I've said, I don't judge you for that. Your religion teaches that is ok, and that's good enough for me. I have no problem with that.

You do play the semantics game a bit to backtrack. You said yourself a few posts up that you feel homosexuality is a sin, but that you've never said that a homosexual who practices homosexuality is a sinner. That's back tracking. You have indeed said that a homosexual person is not necessarily a sinner, but if they practice homosexuality, that's a sin. It's the act of homosexuality that's the sin, according to you.

So you kind of backtracked a bit there. It's all semantics.

 

[pdoel]

Untrue. :banghead3 According to my own definition, homosexuality is a sin, but not everybody who is homosexual is sinning.

That's not at all what I said. You said that if someone KNOWS that following lucifer is a sin and they follow him, THEN they are a sinner.

By that same exact definition, if I KNOW that homosexuality is NOT a sin, and I am a homosexual who practices homosexuality, then, by your own definition, I am not a sinner.

 

[Aqualung]

I haven't said you are hateful.

I never said you said that.

You do play the semantics game a bit to backtrack.

It's not a game. It's the central issue. Love the sinner hate the sin is not a game of semantics.

You said yourself a few posts up that you feel homosexuality is a sin, but that you've never said that a homosexual who practices homosexuality is a sinner.

That's right.

That's back tracking.

Nope. It's clearification. To sin you have to do a sinful act and know it's a sin. Most gay peopel are just doing the sinful act.

You have indeed said that a homosexual person is not necessarily a sinner, but if they practice homosexuality, that's a sin. It's the act of homosexuality that's the sin, according to you.

Not "if they practice homosexuality." That's not general. I'm speaking of generalisations. Homosexuality is a sin.

It's all semantics.

Of course it's all semantics. That's the heart and soul of this entire debate.

By that same exact definition, if I KNOW that homosexuality is NOT a sin, and I am a homosexual who practices homosexuality, then, by your own definition, I am not a sinner.

Exactly! :clap

 

[Ðanisty]

So basically your stance is that homosexuals are not sinners as long as they believe that being homosexual is not a sin.